Murmeli Walan Posted December 2, 2010 Author Share Posted December 2, 2010 I don't have anything new to report or add right now, but I didn't want my thread to be under the locked Teen Agent thread. ...so....anybody try out the SDB fangame River City Dodgeball All Stars? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KyleJCrb Posted January 3, 2011 Share Posted January 3, 2011 http://ocremix.org/forums/showthread.php?t=32570 Someone explain the policy to me. I've read it, but I don't understand the reasoning. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonAvenger Posted January 3, 2011 Share Posted January 3, 2011 http://ocremix.org/forums/showthread.php?t=32570Someone explain the policy to me. I've read it, but I don't understand the reasoning. Because the source itself is based a lot on a folk song it kind of removes it from being a 'videogame' song per se. The only song that is allowed (and probably ever will be) is from Tetris because it is so much more widely known as 'The song from Tetris'. That help clarify? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KyleJCrb Posted January 3, 2011 Share Posted January 3, 2011 Even though they are both traditional folk tunes from their respective countries of origin and are in the public domain? Sure, 'Korobeiniki' may be more widely known as the Tetris theme, but it is still, at its core, a traditional tune in exactly the same vein as 'Sakura Sakura'. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DragonAvenger Posted January 3, 2011 Share Posted January 3, 2011 You'd have to ask Dave or Larry or maybe Vinnie to clarify for sure, but I think the gist of it is that videogame versions are essentially arranging the folk song, and therefore are not original tracks of their own. Because of that, it's more like the artist is arranging the folk song rather than a videogame track. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KyleJCrb Posted January 3, 2011 Share Posted January 3, 2011 I understand the reasoning behind not accepting remixes of non-VGM, but 'Korobeiniki' remixes being accepted while this is rejected for being a remix of a folk song just like most of the other Tetris remixes here is frustrating. Now I guess we just wait and see how many more from this project will get rejected. More setbacks... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bLiNd Posted January 3, 2011 Share Posted January 3, 2011 It's pretty upsetting to say the least because the original song has just that main melody while the super dodgeball version has soooo much more to it, lots of original parts that are only in the game, which you mentioned in the thread. But regardless, depriving ocr of the remix because of some politics like that is just nonsense... not to mention, aren't MOST of super dodgeballs songs arrangements of folksongs from around the world? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KyleJCrb Posted January 3, 2011 Share Posted January 3, 2011 not to mention, aren't MOST of super dodgeballs songs arrangements of folksongs from around the world? Just Japan and USSR for sure. I've never been able to find confirmation that any other songs from the game are based on folk songs. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bLiNd Posted January 3, 2011 Share Posted January 3, 2011 aah yea wasnt sure about that. oh well. Trying to get ahold of people so I can make an alternate for postage Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monobrow Posted January 3, 2011 Share Posted January 3, 2011 These songs are from a video game. They are public domain. They are arrangements of folk songs but are definitely "recognizable" to people that played Super Dodge Ball as songs from the game. I don't see what the problem is here. Also couldn't this have been discussed you know, like five years ago? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WillRock Posted January 3, 2011 Share Posted January 3, 2011 This is where ocr standards kinda take the piss imo. If people recogniese it as a video game remix, then I don't see why it shouldn't be on ocr. I understand that it not being video game music originally makes it a no go, but having tetris as an exception to this rule just isn't fair imo, particularly if the reasoning for that is "just because its tetris". If tetris is allowed on ocr, then any other game that uses folk music like this should be. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liontamer Posted January 3, 2011 Share Posted January 3, 2011 I don't see what the problem is here. Also couldn't this have been discussed you know, like five years ago? Because of this submission, the discussion was already done 6 years ago with Ari leading it among the judges. The consensus (i.e. everyone but Binnie ) was that Tetris is our one and only game with a non-VGM, traditional, or public domain source tune exception. I actually sided with Binnie in being against the Tetris exception as well, but I also could live with it as long as the specific exception was added to the standards. It's been enumerated by name in the standards for 6 years, it's not as if it just crept in somewhere. I dunno how Dave explained things to Kyle, and not saying I agree with the following points, but there are unique circumstances with Tetris's music which caused it to be very strongly co-opted as a game theme in the greater public consciousness, otherwise this exception wouldn't have been made: 1) unlike 99% of video games, the Game Boy version sold more than 30 million copies, 2) the song has no identifiable composer, creating less of a sense of ownership, 3) this perception of the music in the public was established well before the creation of OCR. But honestly, any talk of being "unfair" only makes it more likely that the Tetris mixes would be removed rather than any further exceptions being made for Super Dodge Ball or Mortal Kombat or DDR or Star Wars, etc. Anyway, just playing devil's advocate and explaining what went into the lone exception for Tetris. I may not have covered everything, but Dave may want to elaborate or clarify. As far as Jordan's track, even if there were no revisions made and it stayed as is (which there's nothing wrong with), nothing prevents it from being a great addition to Around the World, even if it wasn't posted as an individual OC ReMix. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KyleJCrb Posted January 3, 2011 Share Posted January 3, 2011 Mortal Kombat or DDR or Star Wars, etc. These are bad examples, because those are mainstream songs that are obviously still under copyright, with known composer credits, and (in the case of Mortal Kombat) are songs that never actually appeared in a game at all. Both 'Sakura Sakura' and Korobeiniki' don't fall under any of that. Removing Tetris is a bad idea, regardless. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Monobrow Posted January 3, 2011 Share Posted January 3, 2011 I can see where that rule would make sense. You don't want someone covering a Linkin Park song from a Tony Hawk game and submitting it as an OCREMIX... But when it comes to public domain songs that would be identifiable to the video game itself, especially one as obviously thematic as Super Dodgeball... I think its should be more of a gray area ruling of "what makes the most sense" other than one sweeping guideline rule. Criteria on a more individual song by song basis. The judgment on Jordan's song wasn't just because it was from a folk song, it was because of "how much" of the arrangement of the song vs. the original material was used... But from what I saw Vinnie post there, Jordan used more of the original source from the game and interpretation than the meat of Sakura Sakura... Or am I reading that wrong? I think this is besides the point anyway though. My point is, the remixes are obviously made in appreciation of the video game and the music therein, not so much because they are folk songs we've heard in other formats. I've not heard a few of them outside of Dodgeball personally. Popularity of the source just doesn't seem like a great reasoning for whether or not something should be NO'd when there are other aspects of the songs themselves that can be considered... The inherent interpretation on an 8-bit system, an arrangement to make them more exciting for a video game, and the obvious nostalgia people that played this game experience when they hear these songs redone and posted on OCR. There will be a connection there with the listener and they will be identified towards the video game, not so much the folk song. When I meant discussed, I didn't mean a submission from six years ago... And yeah I disagree with Binnie's argument there too, but it seems just like a safer way to deal with the issue because it can open up a can of worms... It's such an obscure OST with such a blurred use of original vs. arranged materia... But association with the game itself is what I think ANYONE who downloads this album will understand and appreciate. And just, well I'm not placing any blame here, but a heads up in some way to the remixers that this would be a problem, I'm really surprised this is only being mentioned NOW at the very end, it's unfortunate for everyone involved *_* Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murmeli Walan Posted January 4, 2011 Author Share Posted January 4, 2011 Ok, time for my opinion. For me, all the music in SDB is tied to that game. I wasn't aware that any of the music was based on folk music until I started this project. That being said: I do kind of side on the judges here. I mean, it's kinda hard for remixers to know sometimes what was composed for the game and what was covered. You don't want people remixing the William Tell Overture because it was used in the NES game . That's one of the reasons why OCR has a judges panel, anyway. As for the Tetris thing... of course there's a double standard here, but it's not being kept secret or anything. Yes, Tetris is far and away a much more known and celebrated game than SDB, and I do understand why the folk song in that game is much more tied to Tetris (case in point: I'm not even bothering to look up the name of the song to spell it. I'm just gonna say "the Tetris song" and everyone knows what I'm talking about. The panel is put into a tough spot here: of course all the remixers of "the Tetris song" won't be pulled, that would just be wrong. But they can't not accept new remixes of that theme, either. Yes, you wanna keep OCR to just music composed FOR video games, but Tetris just has that ability to bend that rule because of it's extreme popularity.I'm getting rambling here, let's just get to the bottom line. I'm not upset or angry that Jordan's excellent track isn't getting passed by the panel. I'm not even disappointed. When Around the World releases, people will still listen to his remix, regardless if it's front page posted or not. It's only being rejected by a technicality, not because it's bad musically. Even if every single track got rejected, Around the World would still get listened to, and I'm willing to bet a lot that nearly everyone who listens will love it. That's what matters the most to me. I very much respect Kyle's opinion, but I don't think this is a setback by any stretch. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KyleJCrb Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 When Around the World releases, people will still listen to his remix, regardless if it's front page posted or not. This is true, especially since it'll be the main track used in the preview trailer. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bLiNd Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 Well I can say this. Front page posting gets more listens than project tracks, plain and simple. I have gotten more pms from people that discovered me from the ocremix youtube channel than anything. (I think project tracks get posted there as well, but not as upfront as a page post) Regardless, I understand this issue plainly. What really blows is my track and USSR are the ONLY ones that might have an issue (as far as we know at least) So I have talked to the panel and they will be open to re-judging the track if I change the sakura melody. I can make it sound LIKE the original but still be new and different enough to be original so it can be posted. Fingers crossed I am not wasting my time... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Palpable Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 The judgment on Jordan's song wasn't just because it was from a folk song, it was because of "how much" of the arrangement of the song vs. the original material was used... But from what I saw Vinnie post there, Jordan used more of the original source from the game and interpretation than the meat of Sakura Sakura... Or am I reading that wrong? I think this is besides the point anyway though. The issue is how much it uses the folk song. Sorry if I was confusing by pointing out the Sakura usage vs. Dodge Ball usage, I was doing that to show that the Dodge Ball song has a good deal of original material. But the relevant part of the standards to me is: Any incorporation or arrangement of source material not from games (mainstream, classical, etc.) should be extremely limited. What was used wasn't limited, not to mention, if you remove it, the song probably doesn't have dominant source usage. I'm not happy that it doesn't meet the standards, it's an amazing song and it does the song in the game justice. I think probably all of us weren't aware this would be an issue until now or it would have been brought up earlier. So I have talked to the panel and they will be open to re-judging the track if I change the sakura melody. I can make it sound LIKE the original but still be new and different enough to be original so it can be posted. Fingers crossed I am not wasting my time... Here's hoping you can pull it off, although one part of me thinks that the song in the game will get less justice if you take out the Sakura melody. I hope you keep the current version as a part of the album too. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murmeli Walan Posted January 4, 2011 Author Share Posted January 4, 2011 Here's hoping you can pull it off, although one part of me thinks that the song in the game will get less justice if you take out the Sakura melody. I hope you keep the current version as a part of the album too. You mean, say, an "Album Version" and an "OCR Version" of the same remix? I dig. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bLiNd Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 Here's hoping you can pull it off, although one part of me thinks that the song in the game will get less justice if you take out the Sakura melody. I hope you keep the current version as a part of the album too. Which is why sometimes these rules make OCR shoot its own foot. I talked to Kyle about it, I will probably make an OCR edit persay for the sake of the promotion of the album and have this version on the album itself. Kyle mentioned that this remix is almost the main theme of the project and will be in the project trailer prominently so its really disheartening that a politic of sorts prevents this from just being put up. But I will conform to something that might work since I really want this on the front page. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KyleJCrb Posted January 4, 2011 Share Posted January 4, 2011 The only problem I can possibly see is if the Sakura Sakura is removed or changed too much, it'll be rejected on the grounds of not having enough source. It's a thin line at this point... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
KyleJCrb Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 Guys, guys: Guess what? DCT is done. HOLY CRAP HOLY CRAP HOLY CRAP HOLY CRAP HOLY CRAP HOLY CRAP HOLY CRAP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Chernabogue Posted January 12, 2011 Share Posted January 12, 2011 HOLY CRAP HOLY CRAP HOLY CRAP HOLY CRAP HOLY CRAP HOLY CRAP HOLY CRAP What you said. That's cool, Kyle. Now get it released! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DCT Posted January 13, 2011 Share Posted January 13, 2011 HOLY CRAP HOLY CRAP HOLY CRAP HOLY CRAP HOLY CRAP HOLY CRAP HOLY CRAP Yeah, I'm as surprised as anyone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Murmeli Walan Posted January 17, 2011 Author Share Posted January 17, 2011 NEWS FROM MAGFEST: The Dodgeboobs album art had the panel room laughing. HUGE SUCCESS! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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