Sony PlayStation 4

[Ramaniscence]

I owned all three of the previous generations consoles. I still own a PS3 and a 360. 360 gets play, while the PS3 is typically just used as a bluray player. Both consoles are slowly waning in play time. I get most of my console play via the 3DS and my PC. The Vita is a fantastic system, that is suffering from not having a very lame library. While I do like that Sony is making PS1 classic games available on the Vita platform, which is more than the Big N can say with it's rather depressing selection. Much like the underwhelming offering from Nintendo, the PS4 and 720 are shaping up to make this the console cycle that I hand in my controller. With more and more multiplatform games being made available and better on the PC, there is really no reason to grab them.

Consoles give a unique experience of easy-of-use with the controller, TV connectivity, and deeply integrated social components, but that's about it, and when you factor in Steam's social components and push for gamepad support well...consoles are going to have a bad time.

I will say this, though: I don't give a fuck about backwards compatibility, and frankly I'm pretty surprised to hear people pretend like they actually care. My PS3 never had PS2 capability and I only found out it played PSX games recently...not that it mattered because I have all over 1-2 PSX games still lying around anyway. If I REALLY decide I want to play PS2 games, I'll buy a PS2 off of eBay for $30. I don't need a new $600 system for that. If you want to play PS3 games...odds are you'll still have a PS3. How often do people even use their PS3, XBOX, or Wii for old games? I'm sure it might happen sometimes, but not too often. I think their solution is questionably sketchy, but acceptable for how little it really matters in the grand scheme of things.

I like the ability to stream stuff with dedicated hardware for it, but everything about this console will come down to price, usability, and performance for me. If it can even begin to compete with a PC...then I'm listening, but if it can't? Well...sorry, because when I hear Sony say "easy for PC developers to create games for it" I hear "Games will be coming out for both PS4 and PC."

[Garrett Williamson]

Six Problems With Today's Disastrous PS4 Briefing

[Crowbar Man]

I was a little miffed they didn't show the unit actually.

This whole "Conference to just talk about what might be on the system and just show the controller" is also a strange Wii U parallel ha!

[Brandon Strader]

Whole PS4 is strange Wii U parallel.

Remote play on Vita won't match Wii U gamepad. Especially since nobody has a Vita.

[zircon]

I disagree. While they "eventually became good", the same could be said of the Dreamcast. Financially, the PSP and PS3 were pretty dismal successes, with the PSP bordering on outright failure. The Vita doesn't have a lot going for it, and with Nintendo scoring Monster Hunter over the PSP, it doesn't look good.

PSP was really good pretty much the whole time. A little weak on launch titles, but seriously, what console / handheld HASN'T been weak? It's always been very moddable besides having great hardware and an amazing library. The RPGs on the PSP are among the best around. As for PS3 being a financial failure, you know that it has now sold more units than the 360, right?

Consoles give a unique experience of easy-of-use with the controller, TV connectivity, and deeply integrated social components, but that's about it, and when you factor in Steam's social components and push for gamepad support well...consoles are going to have a bad time.

Well, "ease of use" on a PC hasn't gotten drastically better with often-shaky PC ports and hardware compatibility issues. We're ALL enthusiasts here, but the average person (and below average person) is not. There are still a lot of console exclusive games (particularly Japanese ones) which is a major selling point. The TV connectivity thing is a big one. Even if you have a computer that can run modern games well (maybe not too uncommon), the average person is not going to want to put it next to their TV unless they have ANOTHER computer, which most people don't. There's stuff you have to deal with there to get it hooked up properly, messiness of wireless mouse/keyboard, buying gamepads, etc. It's still a pain in the ass.

However, I think console sales are going to suffer this generation for a number of reasons unrelated to "PC is better" (and btw I do 95% of my gaming on PC):

* WAY more people are gaming on mobile devices than ever before. Some time and money that would have gone toward traditional console gaming is now going toward mobile gaming, which is often much more convenient, cheap, and time-effective. The game industry has been severely disrupted since the launch of the PS3/360 thanks to mobile.

* Sort of related, but there's also a lot more gaming going on within the browser (not just Facebook games but... well, that's a lot of it). These can be played on any computer and most mobile devices as well. As with the above, this is cheaper and more convenient than console gaming, and time/money is spent here instead of on console games.

* The jump in graphics/functionality from our current generation to the upcoming generation is almost assuredly going to be much less pronounced than the jump from PS2 -> PS3. PS3/360 games still look great today. No, they're not as amazing as maxed-out PC games. But the level of realism is objectively much higher, framerates are better across the board, physics are better, etc. In other words, there are diminishing returns at work and so the increase in hardware power is not going to be as much of a selling point as it was before.

* Our economy still sucks and people (especially young people) seem to have less money than ever. Health care is more expensive. Food is more expensive. Employment is harder to come by, especially good employment. College is more expensive. Insurance is more expensive. Gas is more expensive. Thus even if the above factors weren't true, ALL spending has slowed and large luxury purchases like a new console (especially if one has an existing, perfectly functioning console) are going to be especially scrutinized.

Edited February 21, 2013 by zircon

[Brushfire]

From your whole Master PC Race spiel you usually go off into, this is no surprise.

I say things like that because it is true. The PC is the logical conclusion for people who play videogames. The console makers, with the exception of the console exclusives (which are getting less and less of a draw in my opinion) , pretty much every game is better on the PC. Seeing as the majority of the multiplatform ports support USB controllers we can emulate the console experience on a better PC. It is getting to the point where portables are the only thing to get excited for from the console makers. And even those have been lame to lukewarm lately.

Also: I don't think that PC Gamers are a master race. While I appreciate your candor, I don't appreciate your tone from above.

Edited February 21, 2013 by Brushfire

[Brandon Strader]

Consoles are trying to catch up with PC while PC has already been beyond what PS4 is capable of for a 'few years'.

[Lyrai]

PSP was really good pretty much the whole time. A little weak on launch titles, but seriously, what console / handheld HASN'T been weak? It's always been very moddable besides having great hardware and an amazing library. The RPGs on the PSP are among the best around. As for PS3 being a financial failure, you know that it has now sold more units than the 360, right?

And the Wii at this point outstrips both of them. When the PS3 launched, it was almost stillborn. Not to mention the continuous PR Gaffe after PR Gaffe.

And as for PSP modding, Sony continues to try their damndest to make it so you can't mod - and while I strongly agree with the idea of "It's my fucking PSP, let me do what I want", they obviously don't, and neither do publishers. The openness of the PSP's piracy scared off many developers & publishers from the platform, which is something they want to try and keep off the Vita at all costs. Much to it's massive detriment, the tiny handheld needs every boost it can get.

The 360 at this point won 360 vs PS3 early on not out of any merits on it's own, but more because the PS3 kept stumbling, and stumbling badly. It took an entire management shakeup and almost the entire damn company exploding for them to finally put the big boy pants on and stop shitting the bed. Google is being awful to me, but there's a remarkable series of interviews of Hirai, talking about his first few days/weeks back at the Playstation helm, about how it was "A complete mess."

Obviously, Hirai did great work, because the PlayStation is still kicking, and as you pointed out, has now surpassed the 360. But is it too little too late for the PS3 to be considered anything but a Johnny-Come-Lately to this generations? Sony needs that kind of success out of the gate with the PS4, they really cannot afford another screwup like that - both financially, and to their reputation.

I really, really, really want to like Sony. They continuously want to push forward, as opposed to Nintendo's front and to the right a bit, to kind of mangle that analogy. And I'm a huge tech geek, I would like to see Nintendo and Sony sort of coexist. Sony is the one constantly pushing current tech ahead, refining it, and basically giving us fucking Star Wars/Star Trek in our living room, right now, while Nintendo is the crazy Doc Brown who every other week shows us something we never knew we wanted until it exists. And Microsoft's the...uh...dude who packages it for cheap at some point, I don't know, the analogy kind of breaks down here.

As it stands right now? Nintendo's not sure what to put foward and is still getting around this whole "Online" thing, Microsoft is way, way, way too interested in how much more money it can pull from me than any actual enjoyment, and Sony is clinging to the rope with it's teeth, trying to keep from being pulled under, and I'm hoping it can pull itself up.

[Brushfire]

Meanwhile Steam makes all of the right moves. Nother point for PC over Consoles. Hell, even the much decried Origin isn't terrible anymore. There isn't much of an excuse outside of "I'm poor" to not game on the PC. Unless you absolutely love Halo or Killzone.

[Brandon Strader]

And console gaming costs more than PC gaming... most people own a PC anyway, even if they're POOR.

[Brushfire]

I like you Be Strades. You is a logical man. We should play an Online MMORPG Later tonight if you wanna join my guild.

[Brandon Strader]

What Online MMORPG are we speaking of? It's not My Little Ponydwarf, is it? The only MMO I have right now is PlanetSide 2 and Ravaged.

[Lyrai]

Meanwhile Steam makes all of the right moves. Nother point for PC over Consoles. Hell, even the much decried Origin isn't terrible anymore. There isn't much of an excuse outside of "I'm poor" to not game on the PC. Unless you absolutely love Halo or Killzone.

Steam has pretty much become a case study in "How to do online gaming", and I'll eat (several of) my hat(s) if Microsoft or Sony doesn't try to make their services into Steam, if not outright just dropping a pallete of cash on Gaben's doorstep and just having him Steam up their online marketplaces.

[Thin Crust]

Six Problems With Today's Disastrous PS4 Briefing

That's pretty much the most laughable list I've ever seen. Probably done by people with anger issues against sony for whatever reason they can't get over.

1.Sony held a press conference to unveil a new system. After a coma-inducing two hour briefing, talking about social networking minutia and enough buzzwords to shake a stick at, THEY NEVER UNVEILED THE SYSTEM.

Really? That's a problem? Who cares what it looks like. It probably doesn't even have a final design yet. They showed the 2 most important things: The specs and the controller. You're a fool if you think not knowing the aesthetics is going to make any difference at all.

2.Sony failed to address the number one concern gamers have about next-generation systems: will the system play used games?

The list has an edit on this point that says "UPDATE (2/21/13): After the PS4 press briefing concluded, Sony Worldwide Studios CEO Shuhei Yoshida confirmed in an interview that used games would be playable on the PlayStation 4." So this "problem" doesn't count.

3.Sony failed to address the major “elephant in the room” – the fact that their online network is second-rate compared to Microsoft’s Xbox Live. Worse performance, worse features, worse everything.

The only one that can make this call is someone who hasn't played ps3 since 2007. The online functionality, the available content, PS Puls, and the user connectivity is fine. I've never had a problem with lag before....then again, I don't play CoD. And even if you are sore that you can't download updates or install in the background, the maker of this list is completely forgetting that they did address all the things they wanted to do with the online components. What about being able to play right from the start without waiting for it to download? What about the share button? What about the cloud streaming ability? The cross platform chat? It's like the maker of this list didn't even watch the part on the PSN performance.

4.Sony attempted to disguise a lack of vision for the future with sheer quantity of content – a massive two-hour briefing. Way too long. Should’ve been an hour, at maximum. Two hours was disrespectful, honestly, to the gaming audience watching it.

You're complaining that the conference was too long? No one is forcing you to watch it. You can get the highlights later. Length would only have been an issue if it was over 4 hours. The fact that it was packed with content means that they didn't unwisely use their time. In fact, demonstrating that the worlds top developers were in on the creation is time well spent.

5.Sony announced the PS4 would have no backward compatibility to the PS3. What? Terrible idea.

Really? If you want to play ps3 games, buy a ps3. They are cheap enough. People have already explained why it's not a big deal here.

6.Last, but not least, no press conference announcing a new system should ever occur without giving the public the bare minimum of what they came for: A LAUNCH DATE. “Holiday 2013″ doesn't cut it. Tell us the exact launch date. Plant the flag on the calendar and go with it.

HAHAHAHAHAHA

The creator of this list is grasping at straws here. Trying to pass this off as a mistake is laughable. Launch is 9 months away, and this person wants an exact date? The guy is just looking for any reason to discredit Sony and is doing a very poor job at it. If I wanted to say anything bad about the conference I would have put that the move isn't relevant anymore. Kind of like the wonderbook moment of E3. That and Square-enix decided to play the old Agnis Prophesy trailer rather than something else and ambiguously says "New Final Fantasy at launch".

Can't believe I actually responded to this extremely poor list. I feel like Luther did in his book "The Bondage of the Will" which was written in response to Erasmus's book "The Diatribe on Free Will" He writes in his introduction: "So, you see, what kept me from rushing in with an answer to you was not the difficulty of doing so, nor pressure of other work, nor the grandeur of your eloquence, nor fear of you, but simply disgust, disinclination, and distaste-which, if I may so, express my judgment of your Diatribe.

Edited February 21, 2013 by Thin Crust

[prophetik music]

i am amazed - ASTOUNDED - that the hardware is as lackluster as it is. the processor is a 1.6ghz 8-core processor. yes, it has eight cores, but the reliance on parallel processing over raw speed is going to significantly affect production costs. programming in a way that actually utilizes that many cores to get the equivalent of a 3.5ghz 4-core processor (which would be roughly the same cost, all told) is very time- and skill-intensive, and that low of a clock rate is seriously going to affect future work as well.

also, the graphics specs are poor at best. they're not even average for a current system, ranking well below current pc standards.

lastly, 8gb of RAM seems like a lot now, but with the exceptionally low cost of RAM and the serious lacking in the vRAM department, AND with the memory controller on the cpu, i'd have expected to see more to future-proof the system.

i realize this is a 400-500$ box, and there's price points to consider, but this is severely lacking with how cheap current-gen hardware is. i hope the xbox isn't comparable, because that tells me that we're going to be seeing the age of the system in two years, not four or five.

edit:

also, i'm surprised that there's no backwards compatibility. if the hardware is so much beyond last-gen stuff, why isn't it able to do software emulation a la the C and E models of the PS3? they've already demonstrated that the ability to virtualize an existing system is viable and cheap to do, so why not maintain that to give them a leg up on the xbox (which will surely continue to maintain that functionality)?

Edited February 21, 2013 by prophetik music

[EC2151]

I say things like that because it is true. The PC is the logical conclusion for people who play videogames.

These two statements next to each other bring on endless lols.

[prophetik music]

here's something that kind of supports what i was talking about (no hard numbers but good info) - www.gamasutra.com/view/news/187037/We_asked_three_PS4_developers_how_expensive_their_games_are.php.

[Garrett Williamson]

That's pretty much the most laughable list I've ever seen. Probably done by people with anger issues against sony for whatever reason they can't get over.

1.Sony held a press conference to unveil a new system. After a coma-inducing two hour briefing, talking about social networking minutia and enough buzzwords to shake a stick at, THEY NEVER UNVEILED THE SYSTEM.

Really? That's a problem? Who cares what it looks like. It probably doesn't even have a final design yet. They showed the 2 most important things: The specs and the controller. You're a fool if you think not knowing the aesthetics is going to make any difference at all.

2.Sony failed to address the number one concern gamers have about next-generation systems: will the system play used games?

The list has an edit on this point that says "UPDATE (2/21/13): After the PS4 press briefing concluded, Sony Worldwide Studios CEO Shuhei Yoshida confirmed in an interview that used games would be playable on the PlayStation 4." So this "problem" doesn't count.

3.Sony failed to address the major “elephant in the room” – the fact that their online network is second-rate compared to Microsoft’s Xbox Live. Worse performance, worse features, worse everything.

The only one that can make this call is someone who hasn't played ps3 since 2007. The online functionality, the available content, PS Puls, and the user connectivity is fine. I've never had a problem with lag before....then again, I don't play CoD. And even if you are sore that you can't download updates or install in the background, the maker of this list is completely forgetting that they did address all the things they wanted to do with the online components. What about being able to play right from the start without waiting for it to download? What about the share button? What about the cloud streaming ability? The cross platform chat? It's like the maker of this list didn't even watch the part on the PSN performance.

4.Sony attempted to disguise a lack of vision for the future with sheer quantity of content – a massive two-hour briefing. Way too long. Should’ve been an hour, at maximum. Two hours was disrespectful, honestly, to the gaming audience watching it.

You're complaining that the conference was too long? No one is forcing you to watch it. You can get the highlights later. Length would only have been an issue if it was over 4 hours. The fact that it was packed with content means that they didn't unwisely use their time. In fact, demonstrating that the worlds top developers were in on the creation is time well spent.

5.Sony announced the PS4 would have no backward compatibility to the PS3. What? Terrible idea.

Really? If you want to play ps3 games, buy a ps3. They are cheap enough. People have already explained why it's not a big deal here.

6.Last, but not least, no press conference announcing a new system should ever occur without giving the public the bare minimum of what they came for: A LAUNCH DATE. “Holiday 2013″ doesn't cut it. Tell us the exact launch date. Plant the flag on the calendar and go with it.

HAHAHAHAHAHA

The creator of this list is grasping at straws here. Trying to pass this off as a mistake is laughable. Launch is 9 months away, and this person wants an exact date? The guy is just looking for any reason to discredit Sony and is doing a very poor job at it. If I wanted to say anything bad about the conference I would have put that the move isn't relevant anymore. Kind of like the wonderbook moment of E3. That and Square-enix decided to play the old Agnis Prophesy trailer rather than something else and ambiguously says "New Final Fantasy at launch".

Can't believe I actually responded to this extremely poor list. I feel like Luther did in his book "The Bondage of the Will" which was written in response to Erasmus's book "The Diatribe on Free Will" He writes in his introduction: "So, you see, what kept me from rushing in with an answer to you was not the difficulty of doing so, nor pressure of other work, nor the grandeur of your eloquence, nor fear of you, but simply disgust, disinclination, and distaste-which, if I may so, express my judgment of your Diatribe.

I practically disagreed with everything you just said.

If I want to play PS3 games, buy a PS3. Right. But backwards compatibility is a huge deal and I'm one who has to have a system with backwards compatibility. I can own the previous game console, but I love backwards compatibility.

Here's an example. I may want to get a Wii U. But I don't want to lose my GameCube or Wii. But I need to sell something to get the Wii U. I'm not going to just spend money on it and keep the Wii, let's say. The Wii U has backwards compatibility to the Wii. Good. I sell my Wii and I can get a Wii U and still play my Wii games, and I can have my GameCube and play that too. Simple example of one reason why backwards compatibility is a good idea.

Also, the Holiday 2013 thing I sorta do have to agree with. That one is the one thing I was like "who cares". B

YOU are ok with 2 hour long briefing? I'm honestly amazed at that. That was such a disrespectful thing to do. Go on for 2 hours without getting to what I wanted them to get to. The actual freaking console. What the heck.

I feel you are trying to defend the PlayStation, honestly. And I'm not trying to hate it. I love Sony. I seriously do. I love Microsoft. I will admit Nintendo is my favorite. But I don't go hating a PlayStation conference just because it's PlayStation. I still really love the Sony game consoles.

I could say more but I seriously have to be somewhere.

[Ramaniscence]

i am amazed - ASTOUNDED - that the hardware is as lackluster as it is. the processor is a 1.6ghz 8-core processor. yes, it has eight cores, but the reliance on parallel processing over raw speed is going to significantly affect production costs. programming in a way that actually utilizes that many cores to get the equivalent of a 3.5ghz 4-core processor (which would be roughly the same cost, all told) is very time- and skill-intensive, and that low of a clock rate is seriously going to affect future work as well.

also, the graphics specs are poor at best. they're not even average for a current system, ranking well below current pc standards.

lastly, 8gb of RAM seems like a lot now, but with the exceptionally low cost of RAM and the serious lacking in the vRAM department, AND with the memory controller on the cpu, i'd have expected to see more to future-proof the system.

i realize this is a 400-500$ box, and there's price points to consider, but this is severely lacking with how cheap current-gen hardware is. i hope the xbox isn't comparable, because that tells me that we're going to be seeing the age of the system in two years, not four or five.

edit:

also, i'm surprised that there's no backwards compatibility. if the hardware is so much beyond last-gen stuff, why isn't it able to do software emulation a la the C and E models of the PS3? they've already demonstrated that the ability to virtualize an existing system is viable and cheap to do, so why not maintain that to give them a leg up on the xbox (which will surely continue to maintain that functionality)?

I don't think you can really look at raw numbers and just be able to tell how powerful a console is just by comparing it to a PC. Consoles are (normally) way different hardware wise because they're optimizes and because most of the components are soldered right to the board. The original XBOX had 64MBs of RAM. PS3 has 256MB of RAM and 256MB of vRAM. I wouldn't particularly have called PS3 weak for it's time, and PS4 is light years beyond that.

I'm not saying it's going to be WAY better, because I don't know...and like I said I can't even begin to make a decision until I see performance, but I don't look at 8GBs of RAM on a console and say "Oh that's such a small amount" because PCs have 2-4 times more than that right now.

[Thin Crust]

I practically disagreed with everything you just said.

If I want to play PS3 games, buy a PS3. Right. But backwards compatibility is a huge deal and I'm one who has to have a system with backwards compatibility. I can own the previous game console, but I love backwards compatibility.

Here's an example. I may want to get a Wii U. But I don't want to lose my GameCube or Wii. But I need to sell something to get the Wii U. I'm not going to just spend money on it and keep the Wii, let's say. The Wii U has backwards compatibility to the Wii. Good. I sell my Wii and I can get a Wii U and still play my Wii games, and I can have my GameCube and play that too. Simple example of one reason why backwards compatibility is a good idea.

Also, the Holiday 2013 thing I sorta do have to agree with. That one is the one thing I was like "who cares". B

YOU are ok with 2 hour long briefing? I'm honestly amazed at that. That was such a disrespectful thing to do. Go on for 2 hours without getting to what I wanted them to get to. The actual freaking console. What the heck.

I feel you are trying to defend the PlayStation, honestly. And I'm not trying to hate it. I love Sony. I seriously do. I love Microsoft. I will admit Nintendo is my favorite. But I don't go hating a PlayStation conference just because it's PlayStation. I still really love the Sony game consoles.

I could say more but I seriously have to be somewhere.

So out of these 3 things that you said (Even though you said that you disagreed with practically all of it) you made another push for how much we need BC. But here's the thing.... it DOES have a sort of BC. If you already own ps3 games, play it on your ps3. If you don't own a ps3 and want to play ps3 games with your ps4, you are forgetting the cloud streaming service that they are trying to get up online. They said that it was their hope that you would be able to play all ps1,ps2,ps3 games ever made. So no, putting a cell processor in the ps4 would make it too expensive, but they haven't forgotten the desire for BC so they are doing what they can. The only real inconvenience that you can claim out of this is that you wont be able to sell your ps3. And honestly, when the ps4 comes out, you will only be able to get $100 out of it anyway.

And yea, I am very ok with a 2 hour briefing. That's a pretty stupid thing to get hung up on.

Well, never mind I guess you only made 2 responses to the 6. But the fact is, I'm only defending Sony against misinformation, and crybabies. Seriously, the entire internet is going bananas over how awesome that conference was. But in the meantime, you are forgetting that they need to save some stuff for E3. And if you honestly don't think they showed enough at last night's show, then there is no satisfying you.

Edited February 21, 2013 by Thin Crust

[Lyrai]

I am a tremendous Sony fanboy, and will contribute nothing of value to any discussion about the Playstation

There, now we never have to read his posts again.

In the vein of things people actually care about:

"Speaking at a roundtable session with the press attended by Ars Technica, Shuhei Yoshida stated that "when you purchase the disc-based games for PS4, that should work on any hardware." When asked whether games would require online registration, Yoshida noted that that decision was up to the publisher. When asked if Sony, as a publisher, would require games to be registered online, Yoshida said, "we are not talking about that plan."

That's extremely murky.

Source: http://arstechnica.com/gaming/2013/02/sonys-yoshida-playstation-4-wont-block-used-games/

Current-gen PSN titles and save data won't transfer to PlayStation 4, Sony has revealed.

That's bad.

Source: http://www.eurogamer.net/articles/2013-02-21-psn-games-wont-transfer-to-ps4

Seeing as I am not made of money, I would like to sell my current console to fund my next console purchase.

Edited February 21, 2013 by Lyrai

[AngelCityOutlaw]

Never did like the idea of PSN and Xbox Live Arcade exclusives.

In fact, I just hate the whole idea of getting rid of physical storage.

[Anorax]

In fact, I just hate the whole idea of getting rid of physical storage.

I'm waiting for someone to go out and get a PS4 on release and figure out how to jailbreak it and somehow implement BC.

Wait, virtual exclusives? that's just awful.

[Brandon Strader]

There, now we never have to read his posts again.

There is no reason this thread can't remain civil. Your comment was very disrespectful. Everyone is entitled to their opinion and contribution to this thread.

[Patrick Burns]

I'm imagining the GPU as a homunculus with a paint brush. You have to take care of him like a tamagotchi. Instant launch title.