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Txai

How do you make your collabs?

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I am currently making some collabs around. Then I'd like to know if you had some experience, considering a good way to start off with other people and progress well with successful results.

Eventually someone would like to request another person to cover something he/she is incapable to do at time. (guitar, piano, singing development, etc). How it works?

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it depends... back in the days of disciplining percy (oh so long ago) since we all used FL3 we just shared source files and each person dicked around with it and sent it on to the next. FL makes this especially easy because you can save projects as a .zip that include all external samples used (excluding VST/DX plugins).

but this was ages ago and we all sucked. terribly. the end result was uhh.. not so good.

as far as instrumentation goes, the easiest way is to just have whoever plays the instrument send the other person a .wav (or .flac or some other lossless format) so they can mix it into whatever they're working on.

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My collabs with the prophet have mostly come about like this:

ME: (starts a mix)

ME: (gets bored)

ME: (sucks at arranging percussion and bass anyway)

ME: I wonder if Brad wants to collab on this one...

THE PROPHET OF MEPHISTO: (signs on to AIM)

ME: (sends the prophet a midi-WIP)

ME: FINISH MY MIX FOR ME, BITCH!

My collab with Usa came about like this:

ME: I have an awesome idea, but I suck at arranging percussion and bass. Anybody wanna collab?

USA: sure.

The collab I'm currently working on with Zircon came about in more or less the same way my collabs with the prophet did.

As for "Lover Reef," just read the writeup.

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I've been involved with a bunch of collabs. There are a few ways you can do it.

1. If you use the same sequencer, share your free plugins and samples, then send the project file back and forth. Boom, done. That's how my collabs with tefnek go.

2. You all use MIDI for the arrangement until one person (or two) puts samples + synths to the MIDI notes.

3. One person uses MIDI, the other person does the production.

4. You send audio files back and forth (WAV) and one master arranger puts it all together.

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I like to make plans to colaborate, arrange some of the music, and when it comes time to actually colaborate with someone else, I like to have my own forklift run me over, putting the project on hold for months.

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1. If you use the same sequencer, share your free plugins and samples, then send the project file back and forth. Boom, done. That's how my collabs with tefnek go.

Doesn't work that well with Cubase, as it isn't "backward compatible". Chances are that you even run in trouble with SX3.0 and your partner uses 3.1, but this is just a minor issue.

2. You all use MIDI for the arrangement until one person (or two) puts samples + synths to the MIDI notes.

3. One person uses MIDI, the other person does the production.

aka. the same

aka. "one throws the stabs, the other has to work his ass off" - effective teamwork (I speak of experience)

4. You send audio files back and forth (WAV) and one master arranger puts it all together.

A couple of hints that I can give you on the way, cause getting vocals and they're just "milliseconds not on the beat" can drive you crazy (I speak of experience here, too):

- If you exchange WAV files for engineering and the like, either:

a) Make them the same length

B) record them in "broadcast WAV", as it also embeds timecodes and positions.

c) if the first 2 possibilities don't work, then record at least a small "reference" too. Like... the first 2 beats of the song (piano, or beat) for better lining up.

The last track I used technique a) was "Just a Friend (revisited)" from Zeratul feat. JoeCam ( www.sarbatka.com ) and the last time I used technique c) was for the orchestra version of "To Far Away Times" for the Chrono Symphonic project.

Also important. If you share WAV files around, make them the same frequency range and bitrate. So clear that right from the start. The higher the bitrate, the better in terms of headroom. Not to mention for better engineering don't make the tracks louder than -1dB. If you let your tracks "clean" or not is up to you.

I however ask my "mixing partners" to get all tracks mono/stereo centered, clean, and at least -1dB in terms of volume. Then we talk about what emphasis the song has to be (on the bass, the beat, or the vocals) and then my partner completely trusts my skills. Trust is very important while collaborations. And you have to find middleways (compromises). But the most work relies on the one who completely mixes the track (aka post-production/engineering).

A couple of tips if you work with vocals:

- Record as much takes as possible (to have some variations - "one-shots" are nice, but don't always fit while mixing)!

- Record in mono unless you have a very special preamp at home that you want to have the sound from (tubes), then go with stereo

- while exchanging tracks, use one of the techniques mentioned further up.

- The vocalist knows how to sing and knows how he wants "his/her" sound. The engineer however knows how it will sound in the mix and therefore "declares" the sound and puts it into action.

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Honestly you're making it out to be more complicated than it is. I've done successful collabs so I know that the methods I proposed do work.

aka. the same

aka. "one throws the stabs, the other has to work his ass off" - effective teamwork (I speak of experience)

Presumably you are collabing with someone who's not an asshole. It's your own dumb fault if you chose to work with someone who didn't want to pull his weight. Also, the two MIDI-related methods I described are not the same. In the the first method, both people are exchanging MIDI files and working on the arrangement together. Then, whoever has the better production skills puts sounds to the MIDI. In the other example, the work is split evenly down the middle. One person does ALL the arrangement, one person does ALL of the production. This is the kind of thing I am doing with GeoffreyTaucer. I enjoy it.

Doesn't work that well with Cubase, as it isn't "backward compatible". Chances are that you even run in trouble with SX3.0 and your partner uses 3.1, but this is just a minor issue.

In terms of THIS WEBSITE, most people use FLStudio or Reason. Other sequencers are simply in the minority. Thus if you're giving general advice it makes no sense to address it to the minority. This may be the case with Cubase, but in terms of general collab methodology, working with the same sequencer is a commonly accepted practice among people not only in this community but in the professional world.

A couple of hints that I can give you on the way, cause getting vocals and they're just "milliseconds not on the beat" can drive you crazy (I speak of experience here, too):

- If you exchange WAV files for engineering and the like, either:

a) Make them the same length

B) record them in "broadcast WAV", as it also embeds timecodes and positions.

c) if the first 2 possibilities don't work, then record at least a small "reference" too. Like... the first 2 beats of the song (piano, or beat) for better lining up.

The last track I used technique a) was "Just a Friend (revisited)" from Zeratul feat. JoeCam ( www.sarbatka.com ) and the last time I used technique c) was for the orchestra version of "To Far Away Times" for the Chrono Symphonic project.

Also important. If you share WAV files around, make them the same frequency range and bitrate. So clear that right from the start. The higher the bitrate, the better in terms of headroom. Not to mention for better engineering don't make the tracks louder than -1dB. If you let your tracks "clean" or not is up to you.

I however ask my "mixing partners" to get all tracks mono/stereo centered, clean, and at least -1dB in terms of volume. Then we talk about what emphasis the song has to be (on the bass, the beat, or the vocals) and then my partner completely trusts my skills. Trust is very important while collaborations. And you have to find middleways (compromises). But the most work relies on the one who completely mixes the track (aka post-production/engineering).

A couple of tips if you work with vocals:

- Record as much takes as possible (to have some variations - "one-shots" are nice, but don't always fit while mixing)!

- Record in mono unless you have a very special preamp at home that you want to have the sound from (tubes), then go with stereo

- while exchanging tracks, use one of the techniques mentioned further up.

- The vocalist knows how to sing and knows how he wants "his/her" sound. The engineer however knows how it will sound in the mix and therefore "declares" the sound and puts it into action.

Let me just say that I had no problem with this. In the Lover Reef project, I received finals that had slight timing issues. If you have any idea as to what you're doing, you can make micro adjustments, taking the waveform and chopping it up in between transients and re-positioning the new chunks to the beat. This is how I processed ALL of the vocals and instrumentals in the aforementioned remix.

The most efficient method is to simply send an MP3 of the rendered track to someone, that person loads the MP3 into their sequencer, then records or sequences their new part over that. Then, they export the WAV of ONLY their part and sends it right back to you. There is 0 possibility for error here unless it is a live performance, in which case, as I said, micro-adjustments are all you need to fix any minor problems.

In addition, while there is no particular *harm* in discussing a sound that you're going for, you're placing a bit too much emphasis on the engineering aspect here. In a collab, especially in a community like this where everything is really just done for fun, you don't need strict standards on the recorded material that you are getting (or the sequenced material). I know for a fact that you personally spend an exorbitant amount of time tweaking things. I think that is a bad idea and I discourage other people from doing that. If you get a less than perfect vocal recording, so what? Deal with it! Things don't need to be perfect if the goal is an enjoyable song. It's more important to capture a soulful performance at the right time. No one here is trying to get a Grammy.

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Honestly you're making it out to be more complicated than it is. I've done successful collabs so I know that the methods I proposed do work.

Okay now stop it, Andrew. You sound like a dumb full-oh-himself-fgt again. You have a lot of experience in terms of collabs, production and the like and I respect you, but you additude lately is not what I'm used from you.

Presumably you are collabing with someone who's not an asshole. It's your own dumb fault if you chose to work with someone who didn't want to pull his weight.... Then, whoever has the better production skills puts sounds to the MIDI. In the other example, the work is split evenly down the middle. One person does ALL the arrangement, one person does ALL of the production. This is the kind of thing I am doing with GeoffreyTaucer. I enjoy it.

This is definitely not the same work, nor is it balanced. Depending on the production and the instruments used, it can be a 6 hours job to a 2 month production which was originally written in like a couple of hours. You can't relativate that.

That production I'm working on atm for the Special Edition of the Chrono Symphonic project is very time consuming. It's not just finding the right sound and shape it with the EQ. There's way more to it, even though I got a Cubase project file with 20 tracks!

Or the remix I've done for Zeratul. Even though I only had to "mix" the track, I still had 12 stereo wave tracks that had to sound as unity. And it took me 3 long days to mix that thing.

So the engineer has more to do than the one who wrote the track.

In terms of THIS WEBSITE, most people use FLStudio or Reason. Other sequencers are simply in the minority. Thus if you're giving general advice it makes no sense to address it to the minority. This may be the case with Cubase, but in terms of general collab methodology, working with the same sequencer is a commonly accepted practice among people not only in this community but in the professional world.

BS1 and BS2.

As you might have seen by now, Cubase isn't the minority anymore - even not here at "this website". So don#t gimme that crap.

Second: Even though "the same sequencers are recommended", I know pros who give a damn about that. This is why Broadcast Wave exists, this is why converting problems exist, this is why a Cubase user hates stuff that ProTools user mixed (and the other way around).

This board might be biased with Reason and the all-so-holy FruityLoops, but it is definitely not commonly done. Accepted maybe, but in the practice it's completely different.

The most efficient method is to simply send an MP3 of the rendered track to someone, that person loads the MP3 into their sequencer, then records or sequences their new part over that. Then, they export the WAV of ONLY their part and sends it right back to you. There is 0 possibility for error here unless it is a live performance, in which case, as I said, micro-adjustments are all you need to fix any minor problems.

Also wrong. There can be done a lot of mistakes. In the case of Reuben Kee and pixietricks' "To Far Away Times", Reuben's recording started sooner as pixie's vocals. So something went wrong while recording right from the start. I used a mp3 as reference to adjust the tracks and lined them up. Which was a load of work.

MP3 is definitely a NO-NO, as the encoder cuts stuff too (silence at the beginning, ending) in worst case, not to mention that the material can be totally useless if reclessly encoded.

A pro wouldn't recommend this technique at all!

In addition, while there is no particular *harm* in discussing a sound that you're going for, you're placing a bit too much emphasis on the engineering aspect here. In a collab, especially in a community like this where everything is really just done for fun, you don't need strict standards on the recorded material that you are getting (or the sequenced material).

Oh yeah, then why does the "huge standard bar" exist for submitted remixes? I told you earlier... the engineer has to do most of the work. It's the same as with a driver. Does somebody who has no driving license tell somebody who has a license actually tell how to handle a car?

There are people existing who do that, but in the open field they don't accomplish anything. Or in our example with the car again: They sit at the steering wheel and can "somewhat" drive, but if the car craps around, starts to tumble, can he really control the car?! I guess not.

I know for a fact that you personally spend an exorbitant amount of time tweaking things. I think that is a bad idea and I discourage other people from doing that.

Yeah, I don't like noisy recordings, or piercing synths in your ear, while the fucked up beat blaberises in the background. So what?! Got a problem with that? A good balance is important as just "slight changes" in volume can change the complete feeling of a song, makes it more agressive, or more smooth and relaxing.

I hate 5 minute compression jobs. This declares the chaff of the wheat. Not also in terms of music, but also in terms of engineers. You do your thing, I do mine!

If you get a less than perfect vocal recording, so what? Deal with it! Things don't need to be perfect if the goal is an enjoyable song. It's more important to capture a soulful performance at the right time.

Yeah but what if your "soulful" vocals work on a standalone base but in the song it sounds like crap? Oh yeah you come along and push a compressor over it and are like "sounds awesome". Not in my case.

Even if this community is "for fun", a lot of people are using OCR as jump-point to a professional career. Yourself included. If you come along with these comments, I lost faith in what I learned the last couple of years. If this is what you learn in school, then I definitely don't want to go to an engineering school anymore/at all!

No one here is trying to get a Grammy.

This comes out of the mouth of a judge who "defends" the high quality standards of OC Remix!

Sorry, but this was seriously fucked up.

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Okay now stop it, Andrew. You sound like a dumb full-oh-himself-fgt again. You have a lot of experience in terms of collabs, production and the like and I respect you, but you additude lately is not what I'm used from you.

Someone asked a question. I answered their question. I have experience and I produce good results. This is not being "full of myself". This is what this forum is FOR. If people don't like my advice they can take it or leave it. Same goes for your advice or anyone else's.

This is definitely not the same work, nor is it balanced. Depending on the production and the instruments used, it can be a 6 hours job to a 2 month production which was originally written in like a couple of hours. You can't relativate that.

Maybe for you, but for many people production is really not all that hard. Taking a MIDI and slapping instruments to it, in fact, is one of the easiest things you can do. That's why when we get those at OCR we auto-reject them. It's really not hard at all. A good arrangement, conversely, can take a very long time. Ask any of the recently posted ReMixers here. Things don't just get done in a few hours unless you have some VERY talented musicians involved.

That production I'm working on atm for the Special Edition of the Chrono Symphonic project is very time consuming. It's not just finding the right sound and shape it with the EQ. There's way more to it, even though I got a Cubase project file with 20 tracks!

Or the remix I've done for Zeratul. Even though I only had to "mix" the track, I still had 12 stereo wave tracks that had to sound as unity. And it took me 3 long days to mix that thing.

Well, I know for a fact that most people in the community don't spend 3 days on mixing. You'll probably agree with me on that. And I also know for a fact that professional mastering studios and award-winning engineers typically do entire albums in a day. So, the fact that it is taking YOU so long says something about your methodology.

This is NOT to say that you are not good at what you do. You are. I don't think anyone here would contest that. However, you have to consider that other ways of working may be either faster, produce better results, or both. You have to be careful not to generalize and say that they're all bad.

So the engineer has more to do than the one who wrote the track.

Once again, tell that to someone like Greg Calbi. Engineering takes skill. There's no doubt about that. I would also say you are a skilled engineer with experience, so you know what you are talking about. But an album can take months to years to write and produce. Mastering is something that usually only takes about a day for that whole album. For a community like this, then, thinking about it logically, it should take even less time.

BS1 and BS2.

As you might have seen by now, Cubase isn't the minority anymore - even not here at "this website". So don#t gimme that crap.

Ok, name all the ReMixers here who use Cubase. No, seriously. Do it. How would you even know?

This board might be biased with Reason and the all-so-holy FruityLoops, but it is definitely not commonly done. Accepted maybe, but in the practice it's completely different.

"In the practice" no one really cares. Some of the best albums have been produced with terrible gear. One of my good friends is a very successful composer and songwriter who uses Garageband of all things. In the real world, it's a results-based enviroment. NO ONE CARES what you do if the final result sounds good.

Also wrong. There can be done a lot of mistakes. In the case of Reuben Kee and pixietricks' "To Far Away Times", Reuben's recording started sooner as pixie's vocals. So something went wrong while recording right from the start. I used a mp3 as reference to adjust the tracks and lined them up. Which was a load of work.

Ok, so you're telling me that what I did was wrong? Even though not a single person to date has commented on timing problems? No, sorry. My method actually worked. I wouldn't be telling people about it if it didn't.

MP3 is definitely a NO-NO, as the encoder cuts stuff too (silence at the beginning, ending) in worst case, not to mention that the material can be totally useless if reclessly encoded.

Really, because I did all of "When All Hope Has Faded" by exchanging MP3s. Same with "Lover Reef". No complaints yet. So much for a "definite NO-NO".

A pro wouldn't recommend this technique at all!

They might not, but your average "pro" wouldn't recommend FLStudio either to people. I don't give a damn. It's one thing to listen to a professional's advice about something. It's another thing if you develop a way of working that produces a great song in the end, and a "pro" tells you you can't do it that way. How about.. hm, no?

This reminds me of when I was in middle school. When we were learning how to type properly, I developed my own method of typing that was different from the one the teacher wanted people to use. Soon enough I was faster than anyone else. In fact I was even faster than the teacher, but she didn't believe me. She was mad because I was using the "wrong" method. So one day, she gave me a blank keyboard and gave me the hardest exercise on our typing program and told me to do it. I did. I did it perfectly and more quickly than anyone else. And now, today, I'm bordering on the world record in terms of how fast I can go (in a year or two I'll actually shoot for it).

It's always good to listen to what professionals and teachers have you to say. But if you do something and it works better than what they teach, there's no reason to let them tell you what to do.

Oh yeah, then why does the "huge standard bar" exist for submitted remixes? I told you earlier... the engineer has to do most of the work. It's the same as with a driver. Does somebody who has no driving license tell somebody who has a license actually tell how to handle a car?

The engineer, once again, does NOT have to do most of the work. The engineer has an important job but the artist/producer deserves 95% of the credit.

We don't have a "huge standard bar" either. Our standards are very reasonable. We've accepted tons of people who have only submitted a single ReMix, people with very little to NO music experience, etc.

Yeah, I don't like noisy recordings, or piercing synths in your ear, while the fucked up beat blaberises in the background. So what?! Got a problem with that? A good balance is important as just "slight changes" in volume can change the complete feeling of a song, makes it more agressive, or more smooth and relaxing.

Yeah, but the person who wrote/arranged the song and did the production should have already taken care of the most of that. The mastering is just the icing on the cake.

I hate 5 minute compression jobs. This declares the chaff of the wheat. Not also in terms of music, but also in terms of engineers. You do your thing, I do mine!

Most of my compression jobs take me less than 10 seconds. Once again, no complaints yet. I have, however, gotten TONS of compliments on my production values. In fact, I even got a mastering job because someone liked the sound of my CD so much. So yeah, I'll do my thing.

Even if this community is "for fun", a lot of people are using OCR as jump-point to a professional career. Yourself included. If you come along with these comments, I lost faith in what I learned the last couple of years. If this is what you learn in school, then I definitely don't want to go to an engineering school anymore/at all!

Do whatever you want. Here's my underlying point. You have a very weird way of doing things that is not mainstream in the actual music industry, OR in indie communities like this. You have an extreme exaggeration of the importance of engineering that, once again, not even world-famous engineers share with you.

So you have a choice. Either keep thinking that the entire world is against you; all universities, engineers, artists, and people in this community are out to get you and you're the ONLY ONE who knows anything about production & engineering.. or accept the fact that other people have methods that can produce results that are just as good (if not better) but are different than yours.

We know you are good. Your advice and input is always appreciated. The problem is just when you tell other people that their advice isn't valid for no reason other than the fact that you have been engineering for years and they haven't.

As I wrote in my tutorials, the advice I give to people is NOT BY ANY MEANS the only way to do things. I'll say it again here. But that's the difference between you and me. I accept that there are lots of ways to do things in the music world. You don't. You have your way and that's it. You can't go around telling people that their method is "wrong" or a "no no" when it WORKS.

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So the engineer has more to do than the one who wrote the track.

That may very well be true in many cases, I don't know. To me, though, it would be at least partly indicative of an undervaluation of composition. If someone can do the composition of a mix in a couple of hours then unless that person is a genius, he's probably greatly shortchanging the process.

Composition, good composition, is darn hard. It really ought to be given more attention, IMO.

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So the engineer has more to do than the one who wrote the track.

That may very well be true in many cases, I don't know. To me, though, it would be at least partly indicative of an undervaluation of composition. If someone can do the composition of a mix in a couple of hours then unless that person is a genius, he's probably greatly shortchanging the process.

Composition, good composition, is darn hard. It really ought to be given more attention, IMO.

Ah, the voice of reason.

I've deleted several posts made in this thread.

Anyway, now that zircon has had his say and compyfox as well did earlier. Let's all get back to the point of the thread shall we? Any further posts arguing or acting as spectators (like previously deleted posts going LOL or 8O ) without any positive contribution will be deleted - this applies to zircon and compyfox as well.

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Iv only done 2 collabs, both with me on production and LAOS on vocals (1 currently being worked). It's pretty easy with such a devision... i send my ideas as an MP3, he asks me to loop section 'a' to 'b' btween time 1:10 to 1:18 or whatever, i resend the mp3, he records vocals dry, sends them MP3 to me and i finish the mix. Not high quality but it works well.

Hopefully at some stage i'l find more people who would want to collab with Reason, so we can send files back and forth... it'd be much better for me learning-wise

Side question in regards to collabs: In the previously mentioned situation, i have no question that that is 2 artists working together. But lets say i ask someone to fix up 1 part of the track (eg I ask JoeyG to fix a piano line in an arrangment). They record a cleaner version and add some improvisation, I'm personally inclined to list as artist 'V_gasm featuring JoeyG' (ugh i need a new nic).. it just seems right TO ME. But then i thought bout all the mixes Taucer is on without immediate title credits. I was wondering what others would do in that situation?

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In terms of crediting, I think if they contributed less than say... 10% of the total material you probably wouldn't have to list their name there. I mean, this is really subjective of course, but that would be my take on it. For example I'm working on a collab with tefnek right now and Rellik did contribute to it, but he dropped out early on. I'll still mention it in my sub letter but the actual artists in the mp3 tags will be me and tefnek.

Traditionally I think performers usually don't get credit either in the file name if they didn't do anything except perform. We have a piano mix or two up like that, and the FF4 battle medley had Ailsean performing with no credit in the tag.

Again, all this is just opinion. If you feel that the person made a big contribution you're probably right, go with your instincts.

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personally, I favor the audio-file-bounce method.

then again, I've really only ever finished the one (very successful) collab with zirc, so perhaps my knowledge is based too much on too little?

anyway, I agree with what zirc said a few posts ago: the result, not the process, is what matters.

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All of my collabs have been with other FL users or other trackers, if you don't count that time Daknit remixed "Dance Puppets" in Acid.

woo! :D

I find it can be either the easiest method, or the hardest. At least, hardest with newer software and not modules. The problem lies in the fact that there are a multitude of ways to do ANYTHING in something like Fruityloops, and everyone works differently. For example, I work in 2 to 32 measure patterns, while someone else may compose the entire song in only one pattern which I personally found is quite the memory hog, but to each their own :)

Or perhaps, someone else might have all the channel volumes maxed out, using the FX channels and the master volume itself to regulate volume, which sounds absolutely horrid, and it is inefficient for tweaking. When your master volume is at 34%, something is definitely wrong. You should never have to adjust the master volume ever, it is a pointless knob and should be eliminated, along with the master pitch knob, which is more often than not, useless.

These are real uses of FruityLoops that I have seen. I wish to keep the two examples anonymous because I shed much negative light on their core method. Also, these methods are likely found while collaborating with other programs as well, like Cubase or Sonar.

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Hopefully at some stage i'l find more people who would want to collab with Reason, so we can send files back and forth... it'd be much better for me learning-wise

Wha!? pick me, pick me!

i prove my reason experience with this thing: www.argitoth.com/files/Tavern_Tales.mp3 (Note, turn down your subwoofer when you listen to this. I am having trouble getting the right EQing on my new speakers. It'll be fixed soon.)

look, the truth is before two people can collab they have to agree that each of them has similar levels of experience, or the finished product will be lopsided... one doing more (or better) work than the other.

arrite tiz all.

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www.argitoth.com/files/collab.mp3

collab with.... I can't recall his name :( Jredd, I think?

but he quit the collab, something about not being used to his new equipment he just bought. and then i told him to eq and pan things to make it sound right, but he likes to do that only at the end. So I would have done it his way but he decided to leave the collab anyway.

so, a collab gone bad. I really like it too. Koto, kalimba, bongos are all mine. He did the boomy percussion and the clickity things and the cymbals.

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