Plans for Expanding Workshop & Offering "Instant Upload/Feedback" Functionality to OC ReMix

[The Derrit]

Pretzel - if this system goes into action sometime down the line and requires moderation I'd be happy to chip in. Get at me!

I think it's a great idea that will inspire people to get involved in the musical aspect of this site at all levels, especially if there is an aspect of EXP or recognition for positive contribution. Older artists would help the newbies, people who just listen can give opinions and contribute in a qualitative way, and everyone learns more.

@Mirby - not a lot of people coming up use IRC anymore. Not to say that it's outdated, but probably not going to be as effective as a forum feedback system if you ask me.

[Brandon Strader]

not a lot of people coming up use IRC anymore. Not to say that it's outdated

It is outdated though! It's technology that should have stayed in the 90s. It's almost like using an AOL Instant Messenger chatroom. But I suppose the options for chatrooms are limited these days. And a site-wide chat system would be utter chaos with all the random visitors typing in who knows what.

I personally yearn for the day of OCR Blogs, when "chat room antics" are replaced with personal updates and responses to said updates. It'd be more focused, sure.

Maybe even twitter integration in a more involved way, since they broke Twitter... dunno

[The Derrit]

It is outdated though! It's technology that should have stayed in the 90s. It's almost like using an AOL Instant Messenger chatroom. But I suppose the options for chatrooms are limited these days. And a site-wide chat system would be utter chaos with all the random visitors typing in who knows what.

I personally yearn for the day of OCR Blogs, when "chat room antics" are replaced with personal updates and responses to said updates. It'd be more focused, sure.

Maybe even twitter integration in a more involved way, since they broke Twitter... dunno

OCRBook?

*The Derrit likes FFXIII*

*No one likes this*

[MindWanderer]

Throw in an EXP mechanic and it could be amazing.

Like how Green Man Gaming sometimes pays a quarter or whatever for a published quality review. Incentive for writing a good one.

I'm not crazy about XP per se (it encourages thoughtless responses), but there are alternatives. Something like Karma, or even the ability to upvote reviews or other non-music content. It would be cool if you could get recognition as a helpful/entertaining reviewer.

[Nase]

imo exp systems can easily end up as a trite gimmick, unless some really deep thought is put into them and they're implemented really well. just the fact that it fits the site's theme isn't reason enough to go for added gamification...unless it ends up being a really good game.

i agree that it's fun to play around with in your mind, but it's too complex and ambitious to just add as an afterthought. if you really want it brandon, i suggest going to the drawing board and fleshing out your game concept.

if there's just that basic grinding exp thought, i disagree on it being a good idea. honestly, extending that concept to real life is fucking terrible too much of it in games already.

[Anorax]

.. Anorax shared a status.

OCRBook?

*.. The Derrit likes FFXIII*

*No one likes this*

Edited March 22, 2014 by Anorax

[Nase]

.. Anorax shared a status.

... Nase has left the fucking building.

[The Derrit]

I'm not crazy about XP per se (it encourages thoughtless responses), but there are alternatives. Something like Karma, or even the ability to upvote reviews or other non-music content. It would be cool if you could get recognition as a helpful/entertaining critic of WIPs.

this is exactly what we're saying here

no one said 'get xp for posting mindless responses with no value'

obviously no one thinks that's a good idea

[DusK]

.. Anorax shared a status.

DusK likes this.

[Brandon Strader]

this is exactly what we're saying here

no one said 'get xp for posting mindless responses with no value'

obviously no one thinks that's a good idea

Yeah on the contrary, I suggested the exact opposite

[Mirby]

@Mirby - not a lot of people coming up use IRC anymore. Not to say that it's outdated, but probably not going to be as effective as a forum feedback system if you ask me.

I'm not saying use that over the forum feedback system, merely to use that as an alternative if one chooses to. Obviously the forums will be the primary method of getting that feedback, but using the already existing IRC channel as a secondary or possibly even a tertiary method of getting feedback would be useful too. Hell, one of the people on Hometown Heroes I met thanks to #ocrwip, which is why I invited him.

[Yami]

I only read a few pages of this thread, but I would really like this "workshop on steroids" concept.

I think it's important to make a rating system optional. I would not like having every remix I post in the workshop to be subject to a rating.

I had the same thought, perhaps it would make sense to rate only tracks that are tagged as finished. Before they are there should still be the possibility to point out flaws etc

[timaeus222]

Not a bad idea. Ultimately, if versioning the mix in place is too complicated, we could do something like this. But wouldn't it be duplicate data entry if you had a WIP and then wanted to mark it as finished to have to post it again? Wouldn't that annoy people?

If we -were- to do a separate forum for Finished vs. non-Finished, it would be interesting if the tracks marked Finished were automatically moved over to the Finished forum as soon as they were marked Finished and your browser was redirected there. Then if you change the track to be something that isn't Finished, then it can go the other way, back to the WIP forum. That way it wouldn't be redundant to have them as separate forums.

But yeah, that would be more work.

Edited March 22, 2014 by timaeus222

[Rozovian]

Shouldn't come as any surprise that the workshop matters to me. Overall, I see a lot of good ideas, but I have a few concerns too.

I like the idea of an updated workshop, with a more streamlined posting setup for both wips and releases. I like the idea of expanding ocr's database.

I don't like the social network implications of it all. While forum profiles and artist profiles should be linked, a whole setup of likes and stuff doesn't seem like a good idea. Likes (and most certainly dislikes), upvotes and whatnot are all a measure of popularity rather than quality. As flattering it is for remixers who get a lot of them, it can be disheartening for remixers who don't. And people will like genres, game franchises, and things unrelated to the quality of the remix. I simply don't like likes.

I'm also a bit concerned about the wip->ocr process. As a workshop moderator, I've seen so many remixes mismarked by people who don't know what mod review is for, and people struggle to update the thread prefix because they can't find the advanced edit button. I've seen mod review requests in the Post Originals.

Though if that problem could be solved, maybe by an always available option to the thread starter to change the prefix without going advanced or even editing the first post; I'd like to see one or two more prefix options. Some posts aren't made for ocr; they're covers, they're experiments, they're something else. I'd like to have a prefix option for tracks intended for ocr, and tracks not intended for ocr. Not sure about the best names for them, but I think it'd help a lot.

Some text popup thingy could detail the idea behind the prefixes when you mouse over one. That's all I've got.

If the prefix thing can work, technically and socially (or whatever), there could be some automated page that grabs all the tracks marked for release, for mod review or whatever, making it easier for listeners, workshop mods and others to find what they're looking for. It could be integrated into the whole database, perhaps spawning subcommunities around e.g. Zelda remixes, where the group can promote releases, help wips, or whatever. Stuff like the PCReMix thing Archangel's been doing could cover a platform rather than a game franchise, so there's a potential for a lot of coverage for smaller games as well. Potential.

I'll drop some more thoughts once I've skimmed through the thread a few times more.

[Ab56 v2 aka Ash]

I know very little about remixing and I only briefly skimmed this thread, so sorry if my feedback is bad. I think the goals of having a rating system and a workable feedback system have more than one compromise option. My bottom line is to encourage you to be thoughtful about in what ways people can rate a product.

One way of rating is based on technical quality. If I were an artist looking for feedback, I would want the rating system to be based on multiple factors, including things like audio quality, arrangement, and other production criteria. Maybe those of you who are more attuned to the technical aspects of music production can come up with better criteria. Moreover, based on those multiple criteria, I as an artist would want to see the aggregate breakdown in that rating. It's a matter of "the consensus on my remix is a 6/10" vs. "the consensus is that my arrangement is at a 9/10, but aspect x of my production is at 5/10 and needs work." That kind of feedback would be a lot more helpful than a one-size fits all number. A technical quality rating is just one way of evaluating a remix though.

In contrast, another rating might be "how much did you enjoy this product?" I can find a technically low quality product very enjoyable (e.g. the Snakes on a Plane movie) or a technically high quality product unenjoyable (e.g. Transformers 2). This is a purely preference-driven rating, but also worth knowing. Multiple rating systems may be in order. Just figure out what should and shouldn't be mandatory, because people like me who know nothing about music may want to avoid evaluating on the technical stuff.

Edited March 23, 2014 by Ab56 v2 aka Ash

[djpretzel]

In contrast, another rating might be "how much did you enjoy this product?" I can find a technically low quality product very enjoyable (e.g. the Snakes on a Plane movie) or a technically high quality product unenjoyable (e.g. Transformers 2). This is a purely preference-driven rating, but also worth knowing. Multiple rating systems may be in order. Just figure out what should and shouldn't be mandatory, because people like me who know nothing about music may want to avoid evaluating on the technical stuff.

I hear what you're saying, BUT... this is where ideals tend to collide with human psychology. It's often tough enough just to GET ratings/feedback at all, and while I hate to sound pessimistic about human nature here, generally speaking the more involved you make a feedback process, the less likely folks are to participate in it.

[Brandon Strader]

I don't think ratings of WIPs would work or should be implemented purely based on how often WIPs are updated, the rating data wouldn't apply to a new WIP and would have to be regenerated... talking from a purely pessimistic viewpoint like you expressed about human nature, that wouldn't work out too well... and I think if a finished mix is put up for rating, it should be "set in stone" and no further changes could be made to it. Otherwise it'd be a WIP! It'd be a lot like the vgmix system.

[Nabeel Ansari]

Why are we rating music that's unfinished?

[djpretzel]

Why are we rating music that's unfinished?

"We" aren't doing anything other than talking, at the moment

[Argle]

I just want a way to tap into the OCR fanbase and let them access my crappy shit earlier than a year or two after submitting it. Whether or not people can rate it is fairly unimportant to me.

[Nase]

I just want a way to tap into the OCR fanbase and let them access my crappy shit earlier than a year or two after submitting it. Whether or not people can rate it is fairly unimportant to me.

I agree, that's like the best argument for a rework.

Ratings should be kept as simple as possible, and should reflect subjective enjoyment, nothing else. If people want to review more objective aspects of the mix they can do it in written form.

I'm fine with the 5 star measurement. That feels more like rating fine cuisine or a movie. As soon as you go into individual sub-ratings, it feels more like rating a car or something. Piece of machinery meant to perform a specific task.

[Ab56 v2 aka Ash]

I hear what you're saying, BUT... this is where ideals tend to collide with human psychology. It's often tough enough just to GET ratings/feedback at all, and while I hate to sound pessimistic about human nature here, generally speaking the more involved you make a feedback process, the less likely folks are to participate in it.

That's exactly what I was thinking, which is why I suggest having maybe two different rating systems, but keep them separate. Maybe I was unclear. I think people who want a more involved rating system to get feedback about the technical quality of their product should have that option. But if a casual listener just wants to give a 1-10 rating based on their preference and nothing else, they should be able to do that with a simple click of their mouse.

[The Derrit]

That's exactly what I was thinking, which is why I suggest having maybe two different rating systems, but keep them separate. Maybe I was unclear. I think people who want a more involved rating system to get feedback about the technical quality of their product should have that option. But if a casual listener just wants to give a 1-10 rating based on their preference and nothing else, they should be able to do that with a simple click of their mouse.

why?

a 1-10 rating doesn't say anything to the artist about what was good or what was bad. it is completely unhelpful to someone trying to improve a song. it has no redeeming outcome.

[timaeus222]

That's exactly what I was thinking, which is why I suggest having maybe two different rating systems, but keep them separate. Maybe I was unclear. I think people who want a more involved rating system to get feedback about the technical quality of their product should have that option. But if a casual listener just wants to give a 1-10 rating based on their preference and nothing else, they should be able to do that with a simple click of their mouse.

A 1-10 rating would be either entirely degrading, partially degrading, partially good, or entirely good, but what you're implying is a rating by itself without a review. We like reviews.

I did a speech about a year ago on music appreciation. Pretty much the whole class I spoke to said they don't quite know why they like their music, and they're all pretty casual. Thus, a casual listener generally goes off what they "simply like", so you know, "casual" listener --> into music just because "they like it", and then that equals no review. Why rate with numbers if you probably won't review? Just because YouTube did numerical ratings before doesn't mean we're totally 100% all for it. Hence, this deliberation.

Edited March 25, 2014 by timaeus222

[Ab56 v2 aka Ash]

why?

a 1-10 rating doesn't say anything to the artist about what was good or what was bad. it is completely unhelpful to someone trying to improve a song. it has no redeeming outcome.

You're not saying anything different from what I've said. I explained the same thing in my post and distinguished it from a qualitative rating scheme.

A 1-10 rating would be either entirely degrading, partially degrading, partially good, or entirely good, but what you're implying is a rating by itself without a review. We like reviews.

I did a speech about a year ago on music appreciation. Pretty much the whole class I spoke to said they don't quite know why they like their music, and they're all pretty casual. Thus, a casual listener generally goes off what they "simply like", so you know, "casual" listener --> into music just because "they like it", and then that equals no review. Why rate with numbers if you probably won't review? Just because YouTube did numerical ratings before doesn't mean we're totally 100% all for it. Hence, this deliberation.

The original idea proposed was this:

Essentially, we're going to replace the existing workshop forum with "Workshop on Steroids" - where instead of just posting a thread, you'll be able to associate the mix with a game, songs, integrate into the main OCR database a bit more, embed a soundcloud or youtube, and optionally enable ratings and reviews and likes.

Because "Likes" as on Facebook or YouTube are optional, I inferred that ratings and reviews are also optional and neither requires the other. To me, without other details, the proposed rating system most fundamentally sounded like some sort of scale of preference. I didn't see a proposal about the qualitative rating system I described, so I was suggesting that both be an option.

I'd also note that "Likes" have nothing to do with helping someone improve their product either, so if you have a problem with the preference rating system, you might want to voice your critique of that as well. That is, unless OCR plans to give "Likes" an additional purpose as on YouTube, where they are linked to the user's account to give people easy access to items they've marked.

Maybe we should get some specific clarification about how the proposed ideas would be implemented. Or maybe figuring that out is the purpose of this thread? I don't know what djp had in mind with the initial statement.

Edited March 25, 2014 by Ab56 v2 aka Ash