Bastion Soundtrack using Logic Pro

[Brandon Strader]

I probably got a little too animated expressing my opinion, but it is a way I feel. They could have hired someone to play a live harp, or just asked a friend (even I have a friend who plays harp). And then wrote their own harp parts and had them performed. Relying on instrumental sample packs feels like a cheap crutch when there are humans available to perform those parts... or even sample libraries like Colossus, or any number of VST options. But the main difference is that Mr. Korb probably did have access to VSTs or musicians, but chose to "write" with the pre-made song sections instead.

Maybe I'm crazy. Maybe playing instruments and being part of OCR, a site that frowns upon verbatim source usage or sampling the original song, contributed to how I feel about this kind of sampling.

[Garrett Williamson]

I probably got a little too animated expressing my opinion, but it is a way I feel. They could have hired someone to play a live harp, or just asked a friend (even I have a friend who plays harp). And then wrote their own harp parts and had them performed. Relying on instrumental sample packs feels like a cheap crutch when there are humans available to perform those parts... or even sample libraries like Colossus, or any number of VST options. But the main difference is that Mr. Korb probably did have access to VSTs or musicians, but chose to "write" with the pre-made song sections instead.

Maybe I'm crazy. Maybe playing instruments and being part of OCR, a site that frowns upon verbatim source usage or sampling the original song, contributed to how I feel about this kind of sampling.

I think the thing is that sometimes people don't have those harp players or the money to hire one. Nevertheless, there are fantastic plugins that will get you a good harp sound or if that's even too much money, Logic Pro at least has its own harp sound that's actually pretty freaking good.

Using loops so often just doesn't feel like it's even writing music. I think if they're used for the right reason, but all means, do it. But when it becomes an essential part of the song that basically the rest of the song builds around, that's not totally writing music.

[Brandon Strader]

It's kinda on topic, but here's my friend, he may be a big Harpist on OCR someday. Check out his stuff!

[Flexstyle]

I'm all for loops. When I'm on a deadline, they're lifesavers. When I'm in a dry spell, they're lifesavers. When I just need a flavor that I can't play myself (or don't feel like sequencing), they're lifesavers.

Heck, even my contribution to the MM25 album leans heavily on some loops, just because they made it possible for me to force the song in some, any direction at all.

Loops are there to be used, and you'd be a fool not to make full use of your toolbox. It's like a carpenter saying "Nah, I'm not gonna use that power drill--gotta use the hand crank or it's not really my work!"

[zircon]

But when it becomes an essential part of the song that basically the rest of the song builds around, that's not totally writing music.

Really? I bet if I made a simple 4 or 8 bar instrumental loop and asked people to build a song around it, we'd get entirely different tracks from everyone, each expressing musicality in a different way. It can be a tremendous exercise in creativity, and highly inspiring. Spectrasonics did an entire contest like this with a small pack of loops from an upcoming instrument (Omnisphere, at the time) and the contest entries could not have been more different from each other, despite drawing prominently from identical loops.

There's surely a spectrum here, like Dave and others have said. If you can't think of a melody for your track, and then throw a premade melody on top... that's not too creative. If you take a melody and build a whole song around it, that's more creative (IMO) - after all, that's what we do on this very site! And then there's everything in between.

Hundreds of thousands (maybe millions) of people have Logic Pro. Darren Korb made incredible use out of it to create a near-universally praised, award-winning soundtrack. Even if you don't like his work, you can't deny that tons of other people DO like it, and it received extensive industry recognition. If using loops was truly uncreative and unmusical, why haven't those hundreds of thousands of others made equally popular and renowned works with the same material? The answer is because it takes skill, creativity, and musicianship to write a great soundtrack, whether you're using loops or not.

[Meteo Xavier]

Relying on instrumental sample packs feels like a cheap crutch when there are humans available to perform those parts... or even sample libraries like Colossus, or any number of VST options. But the main difference is that Mr. Korb probably did have access to VSTs or musicians, but chose to "write" with the pre-made song sections instead.

If you gave me $100,000 and all the time I needed to hire actual instrumentalists to perform things for a soundtrack, I still wouldn't bother because it's a waste of time and money when I could create the same thing sonically using VSTs and loops.

The time and energy that goes into production should go to the quality of the compositions and mixing, not trying to wait on a lot of frankly unnecessary human components to just show up and get ready. What does it add? Does Average Joe Gamer suddenly drastically improve his opinion of the game by the fact that they used a real harp performer? No. The whole point of making this stuff electronic in the first place was to cut out all the middle men that used to be required to create music.

One thing I kinda expected to be touched on in favor of the anti-loop movement is the argument that using loops and VSTs now makes it so session musicians have hard times getting work. I remember that used to be a thing I kept seeing years ago when I just started out trying to learn how to compose. They used to call it "cheaping" the industry and "cheating" too.

How many centuries must go on before musicians learn that trying to do music for a living is really fucking TOUGH? It was tough when the VST technology was new, it was tough when everyone bought a $25,000 synthesizer and tried to cash in on the 80s synthpop craze, it was tough in the 50s and 60s when record companies screwed you out of your royalties left and right, it was tough when Washington crossed the Delaware, it was tough when Arthur plucked the sword from the stone, it was tough when Emperor Gaius was assassinated by the Roman Senate and Praetorian Guard and it's never going to change.

The current state as it is today is just as bonkers, and when I'm competing with 13 million indie composers and amateur chiptune dance artists, who all want to be paid $300 a minute officially but will secretly undercut everyone else as long as it gets them the job, just to secure a gig I might lose any minute because the guy I'm working for seems to think my job is to magically bring the songs he hears in his head to life by psychic proxy of communication and will fire me for anything, on a deadline I can barely make because I chose to have a full time job so that the unbelievably fickle business of doing music will not ultimately decide if I eat or starve, I just don't have time to care if I'm using presets and loops over anything else.

The stigma of using loops does not counterbalance the efficiency and benefits they provide when using them. I can say without fear of hyperbole or editorializing that this kind, and every other kind, of music elitism should be considered the same thing as Neo White Supremacy. It is pointless and evil.

[Brandon Strader]

I disagree, creating a race of robots who create music with loops made by humans 1,000 years ago is closer to a musical dystopian future

[timaeus222]

If you gave me $100,000 and all the time I needed to hire actual instrumentalists to perform things for a soundtrack, I still wouldn't bother because it's a waste of time and money when I could create the same thing sonically using VSTs and loops.

The time and energy that goes into production should go to the quality of the compositions and mixing, not trying to wait on a lot of frankly unnecessary human components to just show up and get ready. What does it add? Does Average Joe Gamer suddenly drastically improve his opinion of the game by the fact that they used a real harp performer? No. The whole point of making this stuff electronic in the first place was to cut out all the middle men that used to be required to create music.

One thing I kinda expected to be touched on in favor of the anti-loop movement is the argument that using loops and VSTs now makes it so session musicians have hard times getting work. I remember that used to be a thing I kept seeing years ago when I just started out trying to learn how to compose. They used to call it "cheaping" the industry and "cheating" too.

How many centuries must go on before musicians learn that trying to do music for a living is really fucking TOUGH? It was tough when the VST technology was new, it was tough when everyone bought a $25,000 synthesizer and tried to cash in on the 80s synthpop craze, it was tough in the 50s and 60s when record companies screwed you out of your royalties left and right, it was tough when Washington crossed the Delaware, it was tough when Arthur plucked the sword from the stone, it was tough when Emperor Gaius was assassinated by the Roman Senate and Praetorian Guard and it's never going to change.

The current state as it is today is just as bonkers, and when I'm competing with 13 million indie composers and amateur chiptune dance artists, who all want to be paid $300 a minute officially but will secretly undercut everyone else as long as it gets them the job, just to secure a gig I might lose any minute because the guy I'm working for seems to think my job is to magically bring the songs he hears in his head to life by psychic proxy of communication and will fire me for anything, on a deadline I can barely make because I chose to have a full time job so that the unbelievably fickle business of doing music will not ultimately decide if I eat or starve, I just don't have time to care if I'm using presets and loops over anything else.

The stigma of using loops does not counterbalance the efficiency and benefits they provide when using them. I can say without fear of hyperbole or editorializing that this kind, and every other kind, of music elitism should be considered the same thing as Neo White Supremacy. It is pointless and evil.

/rant

Kind of a dark way to look at the world, and unnecessarily sorta on the apocalyptic level, but somewhere in there, it makes sense. In other words, loops are fine.

[Bleck]

it's really easy to write music with samples and/or loops and that's why everyone totally does it all the time effortlessly

But seriously I agree with everything Meteo said.

[Meteo Xavier]

Kind of a dark way to look at the world, and unnecessarily sorta on the apocalyptic level, but somewhere in there, it makes sense.

Welcome to Meteo Xavier, home of a shit ton of experience in the "real world".

[AngelCityOutlaw]

How many centuries must go on before musicians learn that trying to do music for a living is really fucking TOUGH?

I'd wager less than one more, personally.

Edited May 24, 2014 by AngelCityOutlaw

[ArmadonRK]

Mind if I paraphrase you, Brandon?

I think making rearrangements is fine, but.... using someone else's composition is basically the same as manufacturing inspiration, which is embarrassing... Credit should be given to the people who created the original composition... If someone thinks it's fine to make rearrangements.... that's their prerogative... but it is cheating, and also a very cheap way of creating music just for the sake of having music... You can't put heart or passion into someone else's work before claiming it as your own. It just doesn't make sense. I realize it's not a matter of plagiarism, but it's not much better than that. The legal use of someone else's music.

Shall we move on from ripping on loops and presets to ripping on remixes and rearrangements? The logical argument for the two is exactly the same.

Maybe we should admit that creativity and inspiration and musical craftsmanship are not precluded by using something someone else created as your starting point.

If not, we should all start breeding goats right away.

[Brandon Strader]

Please refrain from putting words in my mouth.

It is not the same at all, because we are not sampling entire sections of the original game audio to create remixes. We're also not selling them, and not winning awards for remixes we made that sample, in whole or part, other peoples' work.

[DusK]

And here I am still programming my drums from scratch.

Almost all of my synths are presets, though. Or start out as such. I basically treat Sytrus like any ol' sound library.

[Bleck]

It is not the same at all, because we are not sampling entire sections of the original game audio to create remixes.

'cause composition isn't a part of music I guess

quick someone call the copyright office and tell them they've got it all wrong

[ad.mixx]

I feel like maybe your problem is more with the instrumentation itself rather than the composition Brandon? Because ReMixing IS sampling a section of a game tune to your own piece of music (composition). And in the case of samples that people buy and have consumer rights to use then those aren't even part of a published or completed work, just an idea that's been put into a small WAV file. Very similar to something like a snare sample, or cymbal sample, or a flute sample, guitar sample, synth preset, etc. I don't see any major problem using those either since most samples those now a days.

Really it just seems like you're making a big deal out of something that isn't. :/

[Brandon Strader]

My issue was only ever with using instrumental loops... drum loops and such I consider to be fine... but at any rate I am done being silly with my opinion here.

[Bleck]

'cause percussion isn't a real instrument, it doesn't take actual talent, am I right everybody

[ad.mixx]

If JESUS CHRIST IT'S A DINOSAUR GET IN THE EPOCH has anything to say about percussion.. it's as musical as a guitar.

[timaeus222]

It is not the same at all, because we are not sampling entire sections of the original game audio to create remixes.

We kinda have.

Edited May 24, 2014 by timaeus222

[Cash]

Relying on instrumental sample packs feels like a cheap crutch when there are humans available to perform those parts... or even sample libraries like Colossus, or any number of VST options. But the main difference is that Mr. Korb probably did have access to VSTs or musicians, but chose to "write" with the pre-made song sections instead.

I'm confused, how is using an instrumental loop a "cheap crutch"? If anything, having to rely on a human player can sometimes be a hindrance. Relying on a human to play a part takes additional time and resources that may not be available. Using a sampled loop means you don't have to spend the extra time and resources.

Maybe you'd say it's lazy writing, but it takes some degree of ability to produce an enjoyable piece of music that utilizes instrumental loops. You can't just throw together some instrumental and drum loops and expect a competent song as a result. You have to know what you're doing on some level.

Maybe I'm crazy. Maybe playing instruments and being part of OCR, a site that frowns upon verbatim source usage or sampling the original song, contributed to how I feel about this kind of sampling.

From what I understand, OCR only frowns upon verbatim source usage if there isn't any interpretation. Unless I'm mistaken, I think plenty of songs have passed the judges panel that contain some verbatim source usage. Provided there's enough interpretation in other parts of the track.

As for sampling the original song, there have been remixes on this site that sample the original song. A recent example is 'Power Glove (It's So Bad)'.

Edited May 24, 2014 by Cash

[SystemsReady]

I played Transistor the other day. The credit roll had like...twenty people in it.

Bastion was their first game. How much money do you think they had to develop the game, and what portion of that money went to paying Korb to make the music? Someone as specific as a harpist would be damn expensive. I don't even know anyone in RL, even on our music departments on campus, who plays harp.

"Find someone online then!" Ok, I happen to follow a small producer named Foxsky, who had to wait months and months for vocal tracks to get back to him so he could finish his songs. He's lucky, he's not writing music for a game, which likely has a strict timetable. Are you seriously expecting someone to put large swaths of their work on hold while they wait for an instrumental part from someone, in an environment like game production?

Loops exist for reason. That reason being, unless you're a music god who can play a ton of instruments or have a ton of connections to people who do, putting together songs with "real" instrument tracks is expensive and insanely impractical. Even more so when you're on a time crunch for a small game made by a small team.

You can record your own drums? Wonderful for you. Me, I can't afford drums or move them into dorms if I even had them. I don't know any harp players. I can just play the clarinet, but I can't even record it because I don't have all the equipment needed, assuming I even had a proper venue to record it in. But I have so many ideas. I guess I can't be a "real" producer, then, if I use some soundfonts and loops I literally got from a topic in this forum?

Acting like loops instantly make something illegitimate is, IMO, elitist, short-sighted, and completely ignoring any other aspects of music production, writing, and creation. It's also kind of ironic, given the purpose of this site, existing to show permutations of other people's work.

[Neifion]

I see using loops as taking a photograph. Does it take skill to take a good photograph? Yes. Could just any Joe-Schmoe take photos like Ansel Adams? No.

I see composing from scratch like painting. It takes more skill to paint a beautiful painting of, say, a mountain landscape, IMHO, than to take a beautiful photograph of a mountain landscape. But both take skill.

Maybe a better analogy is a collage artist. They take a bunch of preexisting stuff and make a new piece of art. Just like someone who uses loops. That takes creativity and skill, no doubt. But again, I think it's harder to paint something from scratch, or to create all of the assets for the collage yourself, then to simply use other people's.

Though honestly, when it comes to soundtracks, what's the most important thing? That it serves the medium. Not originality, not "listen-ability". Look at The Dark Knight. Endless repetitive ostinatos. Extremely simple melodies. The Joker's theme is basically one sustained note (followed by a few generic electric guitar chugs), for crying out loud. Yet it fits the nature of the film so well, it's pretty brilliant. And now everybody in Hollywood is copying Hans Zimmer's style.

All this being said, I am a bit disappointed to hear that Korb used loops, especially the harp melody from The Mancer's Dilemma, which is one of my favorites. I mean, the whole freaking song was built around that loop. He's still a great composer and engineer in my eyes... just not quite as great.

Edited May 25, 2014 by Neifion

[Garrett Williamson]

Really? I bet if I made a simple 4 or 8 bar instrumental loop and asked people to build a song around it, we'd get entirely different tracks from everyone, each expressing musicality in a different way. It can be a tremendous exercise in creativity, and highly inspiring. Spectrasonics did an entire contest like this with a small pack of loops from an upcoming instrument (Omnisphere, at the time) and the contest entries could not have been more different from each other, despite drawing prominently from identical loops.

That's arranging. That's not writing. There's talent in that, but I'm referring to writing a song. That's more of arranging something.

[AngelCityOutlaw]

Honestly, I think the elitism, not just with loops, stems from the availability of software DAWs.

Most people are now making music in an environment where every part of the music process can be done. You can compose with MIDI, orchestrate and arrange, record audio, mix and master all in the same place. This has created the mindset of "I have to do it myself or I'm not worthy."

Not too long ago, it didn't work that way. If you composed, a keyboard/guitar, sheet music or a basic MIDI sequencer was just about the only way to do it. Few composers would actually hear their pieces played back by anything resembling something more than a piano before MIDI and Virtual instruments showed up less than 40 years ago. Not many people could afford to go to a professional studio and record their compositions as well as have them mixed and mastered.

Now, you can do all of this from your home! Except that what most people don't realize, and this is why, in combination with the interwebs, there is a greater abundance of shitty music - is that most people simply don't have the skill to do it all on their own. An example would be that I recently was telling a guy about how I'm writing some music that I'm going to get professionally mixed and mastered. He was like "You're not going to mix and master it yourself!?" Like, he was genuinely shocked. No, no I'm not. I possess neither the proper environment, equipment, perfect ears and experience to make my music have the kind of production polish I want. So therefore, I will hire someone I trust who DOES have all of the aforementioned things so that I can get my music sounding the way I want without having to invest another who-knows how much money and years off my life learning how to do it on my own. I write music - I know what notes go together and how to write a catchy tune and I like to think I ain't half bad at it. I'm not an audio engineer, I could not orchestrate as well as a professional orchestrator and I definitely couldn't conduct a freakin' orchestra. I also can't sing, nor do I know personally any singers who are up to the task of doing vocals for my music.

So if I wanna use a god damned vocal loop because I want vocals in my composition, you better believe I will use one.

Edited May 25, 2014 by AngelCityOutlaw