timaeus222 Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 I tried voicing concerns similar to this but after years of seeing what can result from that, I just simply try to enjoy the music, listen to a song carefully, or simply ask if the source isn't recognizable. I honestly have no opinions now as long as I can actually determine what source is there in a remix even if my ears can't seem to do it (hence the list of what original was used on a remix write-up page). No, feel free to voice concerns... just don't go wacko about it and we won't bite. The judges simply hear critically when they judge, and if they can hear the arrangement excellence, then it's all set to go on that front for OCR. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nabeel Ansari Posted February 21, 2015 Share Posted February 21, 2015 (It has been around for as long i has been living in fact LOL) Oh shit OH SHIT *paging OCR Staff* we potentially may be bridging the generational gap here, this may call for copious amounts of alcohol and street fighter iii. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NyxTheShield Posted February 22, 2015 Author Share Posted February 22, 2015 Oh shitOH SHIT *paging OCR Staff* we potentially may be bridging the generational gap here, this may call for copious amounts of alcohol and street fighter iii. Ah wait, confused the launch of the site with Newgrounds, i was 4 when this page was launched hahahahahaha Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nabeel Ansari Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 Ah wait, confused the launch of the site with Newgrounds, i was 4 when this page was launched hahahahahaha *calls off the siren* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AngelCityOutlaw Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 Who is the oldest living OCR user anyway? He/she can't be much over 40 years old at most I suspect. Anyway, I prefer remixes where the arrangement is considerably different from the source. Otherwise, there isn't much point in remixing it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NyxTheShield Posted February 22, 2015 Author Share Posted February 22, 2015 *calls off the siren* But but i wanted Alcohol and Third Strike matches :ccc </3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexstyle Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 Ah wait, confused the launch of the site with Newgrounds, i was 4 when this page was launched hahahahahaha Crisis averted! I was about to feel old but also rest easy in the fact that other people would have felt older. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pavos Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 I guess I have double standards... Personally, as a musician, I like to stretch the boundaries of what I'm able to do with a song. I don't like just making a cover with a bit of original melody on the same chords. I find it boring to do and doesn't help me grow as a musician. I like to take a closer listen at the source and see what parts of it definine it, what parts are recognizable or what parts are well-made. Making a nearly five-minute long mix of just the NiGHTS motif (which is about ten seconds) was fun and made me play around with it more. Other things that are fun to do and challenging are making a happy song into a dark song, or using parts of the song for other purposes: I have an upcoming mix for the Seiken Densetsu 3 project where I use the main melody as the background "rythm" melody. Sure, it may take more time to recognize it, but I think you'll appreciate the source even more - I surely do when I find out what's possible with it and what chord progressions are beautiful to work with. On the other hand, when I listen to a remix of a source I know very well, I really can enjoy the more conservative mixes. Many tracks of Maverick Rising or the DKC2 project are in my standard playlist, and they're not the most obscure mixes. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A-RoN Posted February 22, 2015 Share Posted February 22, 2015 Crisis averted! I was about to feel old but also rest easy in the fact that other people would have felt older. Yup, there are days when I feel alone thinking I'm the oldest person here at 31. Speaking of the generational gap, I've noticed that a lot of the younger generation of remixers who make it on the site have taken a lot of work into understanding the evolution of OCR's remixing standards. Kudos to OCR for training 'em young (not sure if that came out in the right context). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prophetik music Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 i dunno, i've always tended towards taking the melody and changing what's going on around it. most people tend to think that this makes for a very liberal arrangement style, but the melody's always still a singable tune in the mix once i'm done, which is definitely not the case of a lot of people here. having a classical education and seeing the breadth of arrangements in the classical sphere makes the limitations on what's too liberal and what isn't here on ocr seem almost comical. that's not a criticism - we are supposed to be venerating video game music, after all, not Ives, this shouldn't be purposefully obfuscating the original - but it does seem narrow-minded sometimes when a track is rejected with a melody that's exactly the same as the original simply because it has different chords under it or something. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MindWanderer Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 Yup, there are days when I feel alone thinking I'm the oldest person here at 31.My guess would be a bimodal distribution: One peak with those of us who grew up in the NES era (late 30's now) and one when good, cheap DAWs started becoming available when they were young adults (probably late 20's, early 30's).We might be getting into a new peak now, though. This is the generation of VGM winning Grammies and VGM concerts becoming a thing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liontamer Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 it does seem narrow-minded sometimes when a track is rejected with a melody that's exactly the same as the original simply because it has different chords under it or something. When has that happened? That hypothetical doesn't sound (at all) like a reason we'd reject a track. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prophetik music Posted February 23, 2015 Share Posted February 23, 2015 (edited) When has that happened? That hypothetical doesn't sound (at all) like a reason we'd reject a track. my pokemon mix comes to mind. the melody's a note-for-note rendition of the original, slowed down, in the relative minor key. most of the judge comments were like "the source is kinda there but not enough". i blew a gasket over this one, i couldn't believe that it'd been rejected when it clearly replicated the original so closely. part of that is, again, classical training - taking a song and putting it in a relative minor key almost isn't an arrangement at all because there's basically no arranger input on the chording, but ocr looks more at the feel of the piece than the theory of it (as it should! theory is dumb). all i did was slow it down, add some background synths and percussion, and play the melody. the melody line i used in my headphones to do the recording was actually the melody line from the midi =P i won't be a dick and include your comments, but here's a good example from that review thread by orichalcon. i mean, even jill said it was too liberal, which i couldn't even attempt to parse at the time. It sounds more like a song inspired by the Viridian City music than an actual remix of the tune. But I can hear the source in there enough that it just barely scrapes by as a remix. I'd maybe cut back just a little on the creative additive arrangement and focus on solidly playing a familiar section of the source for at least a few bars so the fans can go "aww yeah, that's the viridian theme I know and love." i literally didn't know how to make it more viridian-y. i still view it as one of my least liberal arrangements. edit: not trying to be bitter or anything. words are hard and i've never been good at them. edit2: holy crap, this was eight and a half years ago! Edited February 23, 2015 by prophetik music Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Liontamer Posted February 26, 2015 Share Posted February 26, 2015 Hey F it, I'm still on panel and can take another look. Would rather you just went "Dude, WTF?!?" 8 years ago and not carry that with you, also so we could have re-visited it earlier. I'll reread/revisit it and see if we messed up. Going from major to minor isn't too liberal by the standards. From TO's vote, he says it's good to go as far as source usage, but I'll look more closely at the overall rejection grounds when I'm free. Honestly, I think the other issues I brought up about the repetitive beats, bassline, and dynamics possibly would keep my call the same, but I didn't timestamp as much in 2006, so I'll certainly do that. I definitely don't meant to insult your arrangement and your efforts to use the source tune. Having been on panel pretty long, I don't believe we've made lots of calls that were wrong or poorly justified, but we're also human, so if someone thinks we BSed a call, just let us know right when it happens (ideally). Just FYI, any artist who thinks we majorly jacked up a call should always ask for more votes/another look. We've done it before and reversed a rejection, and we're always willing to revisit. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
prophetik music Posted February 26, 2015 Share Posted February 26, 2015 (edited) i had mentioned it to jill when it happened and never heard anything, so i didn't really get into it much more than that. again, it's been eight years, and it's not like it was my only track and it drove me away or something. still got it on the site via the project release. if it gets rejected because it's too repetitive, whatever, not like that's ever stopped me but getting rejected because "it doesn't sound like pokemon" is pretty bogus. Edited February 26, 2015 by prophetik music Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nabeel Ansari Posted February 26, 2015 Share Posted February 26, 2015 (edited) I agree 100% with you Brad, but I think it can be forgiven, because unless your ear is trained, the art of harmony and reharmonization in general is basically black magic. Classical training isn't a qualification of becoming a judge, and since not a lot of arrangers on this site push the boundaries with harmonic interpretation (just because they're VGM fans and most arrangers typically retain the feel or harmony of the source tunes, this is just something I've noticed from mixes I listen to, posted and in WiP forums), the judges probably weren't used to getting their ears tested in that manner, at least back then 8 years ago. Not all judges are/were as harmonically inclined as each other (or rather, I should say that some of them are more than others), so in theory it would be a problem solved by them being a panel that comes to a consensus instead of a singular, potentially flawed opinion dominating, but I haven't looked at enough examples of theory-tricks causing rejections to make a definitive statement on whether it works out or not. Edited February 26, 2015 by Neblix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timaeus222 Posted February 26, 2015 Share Posted February 26, 2015 getting rejected because "it doesn't sound like pokemon" is pretty bogus. Well, that would be, because the vibe relative to the original doesn't matter; getting rejected for the source usage not being clear on their listens is a better reason. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nabeel Ansari Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 (edited) Well, that would be, because the vibe relative to the original doesn't matter; getting rejected for the source usage not being clear on their listens is a better reason. You're missing the point. Having the disability to hear a verbatim melodic line simply change its diatonic scale is incredibly ridiculous grounds for a rejection. That's very clear, even non-creative source usage (because of how easy it is to transpose something for anyone who understands the circle of fifths, a music theory I concept) in the broader world of arranging out there. Now, I think there were more reasons to reject prophetik's mix than just that one. But that being just one of them is enough to raise some eyebrows. Edited February 27, 2015 by Neblix Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
timaeus222 Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 (edited) You're missing the point. Having the disability to hear a verbatim melodic line simply change its diatonic scale is incredibly ridiculous grounds for a rejection. That's very clear, even non-creative source usage (because of how easy it is to transpose something for anyone who understands the circle of fifths, a music theory I concept) in the broader world of arranging out there.Now, I think there were more reasons to reject prophetik's mix than just that one. But that being just one of them is enough to raise some eyebrows. I was joking. Though yes, rejecting on not hearing the source usage is better than doing so based on the vibe of the original being altered, because the intention at least isn't contradicting the standards and policies. You know that. But yes, that's true. It might be an oversight. Edited February 27, 2015 by timaeus222 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nabeel Ansari Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 It might be an oversight. That's the important part. And like it's been said, that was 8 years ago, I'm not sure if the same things happen now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gario Posted February 27, 2015 Share Posted February 27, 2015 (edited) Ooo, I feel relevant, being commented on my feedback I'll add a quick note and say I personally enjoy covers as much as I enjoy more liberal arrangements - they give off a more solid feel of nostalgia for me, so it's comforting to hear from time to time. However, for the two cases brought up I wasn't just swinging in for some random feedback; these were marked for Mod review, which means I attempt to judge the music against site standards rather than to my personal taste. The Shadowman track was well produced and it had some originality to it while still retaining Shadowman in it, so I said it would probably pass as in accordance to site policy & standards. The Mana track, while having a good atmosphere, had a few production and performance snags, as well as the verbatim source usage in general that if I didn't call it out before submission, it may have taken months before the judges had a similar response. That's what Mod review is for - quicker feedback than the panel, close to what you'd hear some time later by the judges themselves (I hope). I'd hate to give off the wrong impression, since I do give covers praise when they're not marked for review and they're well done Edited February 27, 2015 by Gario Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NyxTheShield Posted March 8, 2015 Author Share Posted March 8, 2015 Ooo, I feel relevant, being commented on my feedback I'll add a quick note and say I personally enjoy covers as much as I enjoy more liberal arrangements - they give off a more solid feel of nostalgia for me, so it's comforting to hear from time to time. However, for the two cases brought up I wasn't just swinging in for some random feedback; these were marked for Mod review, which means I attempt to judge the music against site standards rather than to my personal taste. The Shadowman track was well produced and it had some originality to it while still retaining Shadowman in it, so I said it would probably pass as in accordance to site policy & standards. The Mana track, while having a good atmosphere, had a few production and performance snags, as well as the verbatim source usage in general that if I didn't call it out before submission, it may have taken months before the judges had a similar response. That's what Mod review is for - quicker feedback than the panel, close to what you'd hear some time later by the judges themselves (I hope). I'd hate to give off the wrong impression, since I do give covers praise when they're not marked for review and they're well done Damn Gario you killed the topic :c (jk btw hahaha) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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