Metal Gear Solid Theme by Tappy Iwase stolen??

[Strike911]

okay first off I didn't put this in the MGS4 topic because it isn't so much about MGS4, as it is about the entire series... I don't know if anybody has seen this... and if its old, as most news topics are on this forum, then I apologize but there must be some people that haven't seen/heard it.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dTcNUoxCmHI

Here's a video of a Russian journalist confronting Hideo Kojima by playing the song for him.

A Russian composer named Sviridov composed a song eerily similar to the MGS theme in 1974, which has a lot of people speculating that it was stolen by TAPPY. Sviridov died in 1998, shortly before the MGS release. There's a lot of argument right now over whether the song just inspired the MGS theme or if the creators of the MGS theme blatantly ripped off of Sviridov's pieces "Troika" and "Zimdor." Seriously, the pieces are really close. Really damn close.

I don't know how I feel about it. What do you guys think?

EDIT: If you want to hear the MGS theme here is a link to the MSG2 intro.

compare and contrast for those not familiar with the song.

[Liontamer]

Wow. Yeah, if that's indeed what it's claimed to be, that's pretty much the MGS theme.

YouTube comment from a Russian:

nazargulow (2 months ago)

Why most of you are so stupid? I am from Russia, and this interview was taken at GC 2006. The truth is, this song _was_ remixed by japan composer in 90's. But nobody _blame_ Kojima or Konami in plagiarism. Georgy Sviridov died in 1998 and his songs are national patrimony in Russia. Nobody gonna sue them or anything like that. On the contrary we are proud that this song appeard in MGS series.

Lots of stupidity on the YouTube comments. (Pretty par for the course when dealing with YouTube.) Lots of people dismissing the similarities or too dumb to recognize them. Lots of people. Some people claiming the subtitles were fake. (I'm half-Russian and those subtitles are definitely accurate.) One guy even said the Sviridov song ("Troika") had to be a fake, because they played it for Kojima on a PSP, and the PSP came out after MGS1. The stupidity is amazing.

If that Russian guy (who was the only person who had the info on when this actually took place, Games Convention 2006) says there's no stigma against the track for arranging "Troika", then I'm gonna believe it.

[The Damned]

Not being too familiar with the series, I don't really know how close it is.

But considering that Russia is currently a giant hot-bed of piracy and counterfeiting (both music and other material), they shouldn't be going around poking people and asking about who "borrowed" music from whom.

Also, what's with the Metal Gears pissing(?) at the end of the video? Or are they about to launch into orbit by using rockets?

[djpretzel]

Very interesting. This is one of the classic modern vg themes out there, so it'd be great to hear the MGS composer speak out. It could be plagiarism, it could be coincidence, or it could be something in between - say he heard it once when he was four or five years old, never again, and much later in life reinvented it from vague memories that he could have mistaken for dreams, etc.

[The Legendary Zoltan]

It's gotta be a coincidence right? A famous composer with tons of ideas like Harry Gregson Williams wouldn't steal anything like that on purpose, I think. As sweet as the Metal Gear theme is, it's not exactly the most unpredictable or unimaginable melody or harmony out there. In fact, I'd say the exact opposite. And while the chord progression was the same as MGS, the melody had variations throughout, so with that in mind and the fact that there are 5-hundred-million-katrillion-jillion classical songs in existence, I'm gonna say that chances are it's just a coincidence. At least I hope so. ;

[Liontamer]

It's gotta be a coincidence right? A famous composer with tons of ideas like Harry Gregson Williams wouldn't steal anything like that on purpose, I think. As sweet as the Metal Gear theme is, it's not exactly the most unpredictable or unimaginable melody or harmony out there. In fact, I'd say the exact opposite. And while the chord progression was the same as MGS, the melody had variations throughout, so with that in mind and the fact that there are 5-hundred-million-katrillion-jillion classical songs in existence, I'm gonna say that chances are it's just a coincidence. At least I hope so. ;

Tappy Iwase composed the MGS theme in the first place (not Harry Gregson-Williams). I don't think that's a coincidence on any level. BUT that doesn't mean it wasn't done on purpose as arrangement homage rather than plagarism. I'm just wondering if it's even been cited before, which would make it more of an issue. Seems like no credit was even given in the past.

[JackKieser]

I really don't see how this is that big of a deal. I mean, they sound similar, similar in the sense that the chord progressions have some match-ups, but if you really listen to the songs one after the other, it's pretty obvious that their differences outweigh their similarities. After all, if someone hadn't pointed out the similarities to me, I probably wouldn't have heard them, or at least not on the first few listens.

Now, before you start flaming or whatever, I'm not saying that Williams wasn't inspired by the Russian pieces, which is certainly possible by any stretch, but as far as breaking copyright or plagiarizing, I don't see any real argument: the pieces simply aren't close enough to each other.

--Jack Kieser

[Dhsu]

The info is really old, but I haven't seen this vid before. Nice find.

[Liontamer]

I'm not saying that Williams wasn't inspired by the Russian pieces

Not.

Williams.

Not Williams.

Updated the thread title. I don't wanna see Gregson-Williams brought up 10 more times.

[The Legendary Zoltan]

I don't get it. Is Iwase's name in the Metal Gear credits? Why does it say Williams, if he didn't make it?

[Liontamer]

I don't get it. Is Iwase's name in the Metal Gear credits? Why does it say Williams, if he didn't make it?

http://www.mobygames.com/game/playstation/metal-gear-solid/credits

http://www.ocremix.org/game/metal-gear-solid-ps1/

?

[Miletus]

If anyone's interested in another instance of another thing like this, and has seen Death Note (guessing I can't link to the OST download), check out the undeniable similarity between "death note theme" found on the 1st OST and carmina brauna.

[Xenon Odyssey]

Harry Gregson-Williams arranged the MGS theme for MGS2, MGS3, and MGS4. The original piece was written by Tappy. That's why everyone is getting confused.

Though I hope this doesn't mean another piece of VG music will be taken down on the grounds of "not originally for the game" ?

[Strike911]

A lot of people have speculated that the reason we haven't heard the MGS theme for a while in the newer trailers or in Portable Ops was because of this, but that's just rumors. I remember hearing it in the original MGS4 trailer, but again, that was over a year ago...

Additionally, in Smash Bros Brawl's website they premiered Snake's level music, the MGS4 Love theme, and not the classic Metal Gear Solid theme that we would expect to hear. I mean, clearly it may still be used, but still odd, which is just fueling the rumors.

I do really wonder if Konami is phasing the song out and keeping it on the down low...

[Eulogic]

This is not nearly as similar to the MGS theme as you guys are making it out to be.

[Trenthian]

This is not nearly as similar to the MGS theme as you guys are making it out to be.

Wow. Are you even listening to it?

I think what you mean to say is, "This is not nearly as similar to the Russian tune as you guys are making it out to be."

This is also wrong but a more accurate postulation.

Nearly every single phrase from the Metal Gear Solid Main theme is present in this russian piece, which I might add was composed way before the original Metal Gear was even a twinkle in anyone's eyes. The rhythms are changed, and the meter is very russian in the original as well as a great deal of mixing and mashing taking place in the tappy version. The only phras really missing, are the opening orchestral riff. But who is to say whether or not that was borrowed from another track on the russians CD.

Stolen or even borrowed, its good that people are trying to give credit to people where due. The lines are very hard to draw when it comes to borrowing famous or infamous classical tunes.

I highly doubt anyone is asking for any money. It looks just like some russian folks were interested in seeing if they even realized the music was borrowed, and to make them aware for the future, so maybe someone might be credited.

At this point there is no question to me, as to whether Tappy arranged the MGS theme from this motif. The only questions remaining, are whether it was borrowed, Stolen, or even used with permission but without credit given.

[zircon]

Definitely some very obvious similarities. Yeah, not all of the MGS theme segments are present in the Russian piece, but there are numerous melodic motifs that are copied nearly exactly. Minor rhythmic variations. I wouldn't say it's a 1:1 rip though, and it COULD be purely coincedence; after all there are a limited number of possible melodies in the world, and the MGS theme isn't that complex to begin with.

[Strike911]

Though I hope this doesn't mean another piece of VG music will be taken down on the grounds of "not originally for the game" ?

I certainly hope not. I don't imagine it would, because the MGS theme copied or not, will always be the MGS theme in my eyes. I have to many memories with that MGS series and that song, for it not to.

[Shadow Wolf]

Slightly off-topic, but was the Metal Gear Solid theme even IN Metal Gear Solid? Because I played the whole game for PS1 and never heard it. The first time I ever heard it was in Metal Gear Solid 2, which led me to believe Williams composed it in 2001. But then I bought MGS VR Missions for the PS1, and the theme IS in there, credited to Tappy. I know Tappy composed MGS, but I don't remember seeing the theme.

[Trenthian]

Slightly off-topic, but was the Metal Gear Solid theme even IN Metal Gear Solid? Because I played the whole game for PS1 and never heard it. The first time I ever heard it was in Metal Gear Solid 2, which led me to believe Williams composed it in 2001. But then I bought MGS VR Missions for the PS1, and the theme IS in there, credited to Tappy. I know Tappy composed MGS, but I don't remember seeing the theme.

I think you better go back and play it again... you know.. just to be sure 99% of us really didnt hear it in the game. or even on the soundtrack disc, and to make sure this controversy isnt being waged for no reason. Cause Im pretty sure that we as a game music community have forgotten the soundtrack to one of the most popular games in history.

[The Legendary Zoltan]

It COULD be purely coincedence; after all there are a limited number of possible melodies in the world, and the MGS theme isn't that complex to begin with.

See, Zircon agrees with me. Hahaha.

And all this time I thought it was by Harry Gregson Williams. I wonder what else Tappy Iwase has made that's cool.

[OverCoat]

The two songs are different enough not to warrant "plagiarism," in my ears.

It's kind of like Sakamoto's "Merry Christmas Mr. Lawrence" versus Rob Hubbard's "International Karate"

[Shadow Wolf]

Fuck off Trenth. I didn't say it wasn't in there. I was asking where the hell it was.

[JackKieser]

Ok, it was Tappy, not Williams... Christ. That's not even the point. The point is the songs are nowhere near similar enough to warrant a cry of plagiarism. Like I said, there are some melodic similarities, a few similar chord progressions, but it is plain to hear that those songs are not the same. There simply aren't enough similarities to justify calling this plagiarism.

--Jack Kieser

[Strike911]

I was asking where the hell it was.

actually, you know, you have a point. I love MGS, and pretty much know the game and the story back and forth, but ... for the life of me cannot remember where the theme is in the original game... besides some of the trailers they released for it.

@JackKieser

Plagiarism is merely taking something and claiming it as your own. Now there's a gray area, but we just don't know if the Tappy was influenced by the song, or if he tried to pull a fast one. There is no denying the song is similar (Very very similar). I disagree with you though, I do think there are more than enough similarities to justify looking into the situation more. If you listen to the 'Troika' and 'Zimdor' (which essentially use the same themes, one is quieter than the other), you'll think it's a variant of the Metal Gear Solid music... I know I did the first time I heard it. I have these songs in hand, and they're ridiculously close to the MGS theme.

At the very least it's worth looking into ...