Gario

Er, actually other instruments are held to the same standard. That's kind of the point being made - you're quite literally asking the site to lower it's expectations when it comes to chiptunes, which even I can't agree with since this isn't a site solely dedicated to chiptunes (even though I love chiptunes and would actually like to see some pure chips appear on the site). It's hard for chiptunes to meet this standard on their own, but that's the standard in place - that much I have to respect. Yes, it takes less compositional talent to make other instruments to sound that good, but who outside of chiptune affectionatos are going to care about that? It takes a hell of a lot of work to make chiptunes into something that most people would enjoy outside of the fact that they're chiptunes; that's the nature of the beast. The reason you need to be at the 99.9% range of talent when it comes to chiptunes is because it is physically more difficult for chiptunes to achieve this standard. Piano, for example, is comparatively a breeze to achieve a decent sound with - you hammer the notes, use some pedal, touch it up in a DAW (and even fix some missed notes, if you input it with a sequencer) and presto, you have a decent sounding mix. It's not easy to make something sound decent, sure, but it's technically one hell of a lot easier to do so with that instrument than with chiptunes. What is merely decent in terms of other instruments is incredibly difficult to achieve for chiptunes in terms or production quality, so naturally only the absolute best would have a chance at passing the production bar. It isn't a class war, here - it's simply a matter of physical handicaps that occur with the use of chiptunes. Which you at the very least, Shnab, already soar past, so I honestly would just want to see if something you submit today would pass if you tried to get it posted. The thing that was a borderline rejection was from six years ago, and even you admit that you're far better than that today, so frankly why not try to set a new precedent? That's the one thing I'm hoping comes from this thread; prove the judges wrong and hit them with a mix that they just have to pass due to it's awesomeness...

I don't think that's a fair comparison, because in the case of the flute and bongos you'd need to tweak the recording equipment, the EQ, the reverb, etc., until it sounded great. In the case of absolutely pure NSF files you not only don't mess with many of these things, you can't mess with these things and remain a purist. Instead you use polyphony and other cool techniques to achieve these effects, but the point remains that chiptunes are at a disadvantage because of that. It's not just a channel limitation, it's a limitation on the very fabrics of the production, and it's not a trivial one, either. While I personally didn't agree with the Espergirl decision made back in 2006 (even if today Shnabubula could blow it out of the water, I still think that held enough kickass to pass, but that's just me), I can sympathize with what their point was. It's not only channel and timbre limitations that they need to deal with - it's the lack of outside effects, limiters, compressors, EQ, etc., that they would be compared against if the chiptune was a pure chiptune. These are all very nice things that could make the music sound clearer and more thick, so the chiptune would really need to compensate for that in it's arrangement tricks and electronic sorcery. Which is entirely possible, by the way. From my understanding, though, people haven't submit too many chiptune tracks because it's believed that the site will never ever accept them, when I don't think that's the case. It's just that when competing with music that doesn't limit itself in such a fashion it's tough to get it up to an objectively amazing standard. Even chiptune artists should agree that it's a monumental task to get a chiptune to sound as good in production as, say, a Deadmau5 track or something. I think it's still possible, but damn difficult.

For the record, Zircon YES'd Espergirl back in the day. Just sayin', is all. One thing that would be really interesting to see would be a bunch of pure chiptune artists flooding the submissions mailbox with incredible chiptune remixes to prove to everyone that they really do sound excellent on their own. I suspect that something would pass through, considering how objectively amazing some chiptune tracks sound. That would likely force OCR to post something, not because of popularity or the like but because the music actually holds up to the standard that's in place. I would be upset if they were rejected just because they're chiptunes, but I don't think that was the case. Personally, I'd like to see some glorious chiptune arrangements pass, and I think some of the talent that's been posting in here could make it happen.

Yeah, I know - people are going to be so freakin' pissed at me when I knock Zircon out of the compo.

... oh hey, Zircon, how're you doin'? Oh God, this source sounds like MM2 for the GB. You're evil, you know that? Hey, quick question, DS - if I find someone outside of the compo to help me out by providing an instrument or something, would that be allowed or am I on my own?

Oh doh, sorry about that - in that case, best of luck, man. And yes, SuperiorX has been advertising the Sonic compo for months, now, Brandon - it should get moving around May, iirc.

You won't have to worry about it - you're not eligible for this compo, as DS put a 'remixers only' restriction this time due to Capcom's desire to use the tracks for promotional purposes. Sorry, you'll have to wait for the next compo (which is the Sonic one, I suppose).

I honestly would give it an honest shot, but I don't have 39$. Their advertisement methods are hilarious (holy crap that chart is truly amazing), but I'm not entirely convinced that their product is that horrible, given the price their selling it at. It looks pretty good for a novice at that price range, actually.

Alrighty, giving this some mod-review love. MOD REVIEW I wasn't feeling the intro, there. It wasn't horrible, objectively, but it didn't feel like it complimented the rest of the track well enough (mostly due to it's length). The pad sweeping into the theme worked pretty well, though. I suggest cutting straight to 0:19 (with perhaps a little more activity - those pads still go on for a little too long on their own) and going from there, for the sake of balancing the track. After the 0:47 mark, things kick it up to the beat that holds for most of the track. The production is alright (though the soundscape is plain - sounds like Unreal, in that department). The beat and bass motions virtually don't change for most of the track until the ending at 3:57, save for a few fills and break downs. This is a problem, as it leads to the entire track sounding repetitive. Change up the bass synth patterns (not the pad, though, per se) from time to time, or let them drop out in favor for another instrument combination, or something. I'm not entirely convince with the drums in this track - they come off as boring, for the most part. Change up the beat, give the snare some more power, have some more hi hat work, more cowbell... something to spice it up. They sound phoned in, as it is - be more creative with your drums, and use some more poignant sounds for the snare. I have to admit, I really like the unreal synths you use throughout the track, giving it the lo-fi feel, throughout. I would like to see some of these effects stay (like 2:54, for example - that was awesome). I'm going to need some back up on this (as my speakers are being annoying and not working, atm - I'm using headphones, here), but I feel like this song has been low passed, or something, taking away a lot of the energy that could be in this track. That could be me, YT or an actual issue with the track, though, so hopefully someone else will comment on that for me. Listening to the sources, you've got them there pretty clearly. I have a feeling that this is leaning on being a little too conservative, though - save for the intro, it sounds like you run through the themes pretty straight. I like what you have here, despite my issues with it. The Unreal flavor is fitting and well pulled off, the production is not offensive and the overall chill ass mood is great. The conservative nature of the track, lengthy intro, repetitive arrangement and weak drums / repetitive bass-y synth will drag this track down, if it goes to the J's. Alright, I hope this helps set you on the right course.

No, what I don't understand is why people are upset about this and yet are just fine with regular DLC. It's fundamentally the same thing, yet this is throwing people off the handle, for some reason...? I don't think anyone has a convincing argument yet that this is any different than regular DLC, save for the fact that it's located in a different spot (that is, on the disc). So when some company has some unlockable extras online available as DLC content, does that send a community into a panic? Not normally, but when that same content is on the disc and yet is purchased in exactly the same way, suddenly people get infuriated? You guys aren't making any sense. From where I stand, it all sounds like some false sense of entitlement - it's on the disc so for some reason you now should be able to access it for free. What is anyone solving by thinking like this? I suppose the easiest solution for companies is to just remove the material from the discs and sell it as regular DLC content again, but then you're back at square one (actually, you're slightly worse off, since now you'd need to D/L the material, there might be compatibility issues, etc., that on-disc DLC would've solved). You're not going to get publishers to produce the content that they planned on customers paying extra for free, so the only other step is a step backwards for everybody. Unless the content is game breaking, as mentioned before, then people really shouldn't get flared up about the practice. Of course, if the content was game breaking in some form then it would be a problem whether it was on-disc or regular DLC, so that's a completely moot point. Maybe I should rephrase my question: what exactly is the problem inherent to on-disc DLC that isn't a problem with regular DLC?

I don't really see why not, save for the fact that we as customers want the most bang for our buck (which would be nice, but isn't wrong of them to withhold from the customer if they want to). Beside that, the easy compatibility work around makes good sense. I don't see what the problem with on disc DLC is. If the DLC were available as off disc downloadable content instead, would it be as upsetting? I don't think the fact that it's sealed away on the disc means that it's the customer's right to have immediate access to it unless the creator/publisher says that it is any more than if the material is obtained from the web as DLC.

Yeah, go submit some of your GMRB music tonight and you'd probably be qualified by tomorrow, Txai.

There are no women on the internet, you fool.

You've still got Clown Man to cover.

Urgh, not sure if I will be able to do this, but I think I'd regret it if I didn't join in - if Capcom is gonna pimp this out then I better make some time for it. (from Street Fighter II) (from Street Fighter II) (from Street Fighter II) (from ... I think you guys get the idea, it's the only one I've ever played) (Fuck, do I even need to link that one?)

That's... actually a valid point.

Well, I'm impressed as to how close to the original it is. That's a really tough source to figure out by ear, for sure. Kudos for that.

Then you, my friend, is the best judge of it because that was the whole point. It should NOT feel like a slideshow if you are not familiar with the sources. Alright, then let me give it another source-blind listen and give you my thoughts. *listening* Sorry, it's not COMPLETELY blind, but asking a VGM nerd to not recognize Wily 2-1 is like asking a Star Wars buff to not know the Darth Vader / Luke Skywalker spoiler (y'know, that he's his father)... it's just not possible. Anyway, from 0:00 to 1:58 I felt it was very cohesive - things seemed to lead from one motif to another seemlessly, and the change up right after was a nice touch. However, due to the material it does sound like the first half and the second half are not connected. I suspect that this is less due to the integration of themes (when I heard the Wily bits the integration was actually well done) and more to do with the fact that there is no form to the song - it does sound like one long stream of ideas rather than bite sized chunks of music. Funny thing about remixes is that most of the time form is not an issue at all, since the source itself will provide a nice form to follow. When using multiple varying themes it gets dicey, though, since following one source will come at the cost of another source getting the proper recognition. Thus, in order to make a song using more than two or three sources you need to establish a form outside of the sources and make the music around that. I don't mean to jack the thread with this, but I have an example of a track with many sources where I do just that. There was absolutely no way the song was going to sound cohesive otherwise - with that many sources, I needed to establish a form to follow outside of the sources (I went with a variation of a Rondo, by the way - ABACA). I believe the issue the judges are hearing (and one I heard, too, despite not knowing what most of the sources were) was that it was pretty formless - it just moved from one idea to another without properly establishing the idea throughout. I'm not surprised that this single detail could merit a 'NO' from the judges - the foundation of a piece is very important in keeping a listener's attention, so if that's iffy to a judge then I don't think anything else will bring it back. It's pretty fundamental. If you want to give it another go at any time, I personally suggest using the Wily section as a middle section, not the ending, as it sounds foreign as an ending. Instead, bring back the material from the first section (that is, 0:00 - 1:58... probably the latter half of it) and end on that idea (while integrating ideas from Wily and the other sources, to keep it fresh and interesting). Yes, this means that the song will be longer, but it will feel like a cohesive idea rather than something formless. BTW, my suggestion simply turns your track into more of an ABA form - if you don't want to follow my suggestion yet still want to give it some work, feel free to experiment with other formal ideas and see what could work for you. Well, that was a wordy post on almost a single idea. I hope it's pretty clear, though.

Hmm... well, to their credit, they really weren't in agreement, either. You presented a case that is damn close to the border, here, so I don't think it could've been predicted either way. I'd need to get familiar with the sources, myself, but if what is claimed is true about the slideshow effect then I'd say there is some validity to their claims. It looks like it was a tough choice for them, though - some of em' might even agree with your sentiments. Sorry your track didn't pass.

Well, that's just bad marketing. It says absolutely nothing about the quality of the game (which was part of your point, but it still doesn't mean it WILL be shit).

Ah, on OCR people distinguish between a cover and a rearrangement based on how close the arrangement sticks to the source. If the arrangement is very close to the source then it would be considered a cover, whereas something that has more fun with the source and has more originality would be a rearrangement. As I said, there is nothing wrong with covers - they're awesome. It's simply that if something is submit to OCR there is a certain amount of reinterpretation that would be required in order for it to be passed. If you listen to posted remixes you'll see that they do tend to change the structure of the songs they represent, sometimes quite a lot, in fact. I hope that helps.

Well, first of all welcome to OCR - you'll have a good time, here, I suspect. There are a few rules/courteous things that you should know when posting in the WIP forums. When posting a remix, please name what game/track you are remixing in your title - that way people know what they're listening to. A source is also necessary to provide, as not everyone is familiar with the source (yes, I know people who haven't played SMB2... much sadness). Finally, when linking to a track please link to the track and not to your home page. Feel free to link to your home page in your signature and people will find you from there, but people will primarily want to listen to a remix in this forum (also, it's a part of the rules, as seen here). As for the remix, I actually like the sounds used in it - a nice combination of chiptune sounds and fake guitar, and it works. The production is quite a mess, though - it's just brickwalled like crazy, and it clutters the soundscape a lot. To your credit I can still hear most of the instruments alright, but the soundscape would be greatly improved if you didn't max out your limiters on the track. It's a very nice cover. I'll give the heads up and say OCR as a site wouldn't be able to accept the track on the grounds that it's a cover and not a rearrangement of the source, but you're not stating that as a goal anyway, so no worries. Sometimes people in here will mention that something is a 'cover' in a negative light because of that rule, though, but don't worry about it unless you're planning on submitting to the site. Alright, I made a few changes to your post to help it follow the conventions of this forum. I hope to see you around here more.

Whoa, holy crap you have a working shift button! When did that happen?

Well, the closest you'll come to that is the Russian ReMix Roulette. You won't find the J's advertising favorites, as once that starts happening the site will run into the problem discussed. Even worse (and from what I hear this has happened in the past, though perhaps not with the judges, per se), the judges comparing remixers against one another (that is, having a remixer remain a consistent favorite and having plenty of others get ignored on 'favorites' listings) causes plenty of bad blood to be spread among not only the fans, but sometimes even the remixers themselves. Unlike other sites where people share their music freely, this place is home to a relatively small pool of remixers, so favorite remixers lists are more personal (and as a result, abrasive) to the other mixers, as a result. Glad you still love the site, though.