WIP boards

[NeoS]

Just wanted to mention the total uselessness of the WIP boards. Mostly bad reviews and comments. (IF you get any that is) Judges often refer to that place to help you progress. Right.

Some people seem to know what they're talking about, but most of the comments are just blahblah.

I just want to get the discussion going.

[zircon]

Haven't had one of these in awhile!

I think there is a lot of good feedback that goes on in the WIP forums. Not all of it is solid, because we're not going to bar inexperienced remixers from participating. However, on the whole, it's a good place to demo your mixes and see what people are thinking. #ocrwip is another resource. In an ideal world, the judges would frequent the WIP forums, but in the real world, all of our free time that goes toward critiquing is spent judging actual submitted mixes. If we spent our time "judging" WIPs then there wouldn't be much of a point to submitting to begin with. That said, we still drop in there from time to time.

Do you have any suggestions in mind for how to improve those forums?

[Bahamut]

This confirms that zircon doesn't sleep.

[NeoS]

Do you have any suggestions in mind for how to improve those forums?

For starters, a good moderator who knows his stuff and filters all the bullshit posts about so-called "improvements" on remixes. Secondly, I feel that if people don't know who the remixer at hand is, they don't bother giving comments.

I think there are alot of people who feel the same about this but don't care to make a post about it.

By the way, I'm not asking the judges to frequently visit the WIP board, I just feel it doesn't live out it's purpose.

The reason I posted this is not totally coincidental. I posted a remix on the boards a week ago asking for any comments on it. There were over 200 downloads of the track, but no one felt like posting anything. How the hell can I improve myself if no one would even post a few words?

I hope this clears it up a bit.

[The Unsung Plumber]

It's called WE'RE BUSY, and not just the judges are busy. Like right now, there are 3 wips that I have neglected to comment on(Sorry DJ Symbiotix). But right now I have to get to work, work all day, get home late, and go to bed. Not too much time in there to comment on stuff.

(shit now I'm late)

[NeoS]

It's called WE'RE BUSY, and not just the judges are busy. Like right now, there are 3 wips that I have neglected to comment on(Sorry DJ Symbiotix). But right now I have to get to work, work all day, get home late, and go to bed. Not too much time in there to comment on stuff.

(shit now I'm late)

Same here, and somehow I can manage to even remix a track from a videogame, astounding, isn't it?

[Fishy]

While I think you're exaggerating the uselessness of the forum, I do agree that one of the vices is the bad or pointless advice from the less experianced users. While it would be bad to suggest that new users shouldn't use the forum, I think we should look at some kind of recognition for good wip reviewers.

I remember saying a little "OCR approved reviewer' title or soemthing could be encouraging.

Also the irc channel #ocrwip is great for getting some real time feedback. I'm pretty much always idling in there when I'm at my computer, and I'm usually happy to give stuff a listen on request.

[SenPi]

It's called WE'RE BUSY, and not just the judges are busy. Like right now, there are 3 wips that I have neglected to comment on(Sorry DJ Symbiotix). But right now I have to get to work, work all day, get home late, and go to bed. Not too much time in there to comment on stuff.

(shit now I'm late)

haha lol I like how you mentioned me .

Well, I cant really complain, because im usually too busy to comment on other ppls work (Im so bad for this ) but one thing ive noticed is the huge gap in post to view ratio. I see tons and tons of threads with like 300+ views, but like 1 post.

Just something ive noticed.

[The Author]

Well, I go in the WIP once in a while, mostly because I don,t feel I can comment on the production and composition in details. The best I can do is use my ears, and try to see if I like something or not. Sometimes my comments come out wrong too. I listen to music for what it "feels" and not what the production behind is. So sometimes I will listen to a WIP and not comment just because I don't know how to state my "evaluation."

[DarkeSword]

Well, I go in the WIP once in a while, mostly because I don,t feel I can comment on the production and composition in details. The best I can do is use my ears, and try to see if I like something or not. Sometimes my comments come out wrong too. I listen to music for what it "feels" and not what the production behind is. So sometimes I will listen to a WIP and not comment just because I don't know how to state my "evaluation."

If you don't know what to look for, we have a Handy Dandy Checklist™.

[Nekofrog]

For starters, a good moderator who knows his stuff and filters all the bullshit posts about so-called "improvements" on remixes. Secondly, I feel that if people don't know who the remixer at hand is, they don't bother giving comments.

I think there are alot of people who feel the same about this but don't care to make a post about it.

By the way, I'm not asking the judges to frequently visit the WIP board, I just feel it doesn't live out it's purpose.

The reason I posted this is not totally coincidental. I posted a remix on the boards a week ago asking for any comments on it. There were over 200 downloads of the track, but no one felt like posting anything. How the hell can I improve myself if no one would even post a few words?

I hope this clears it up a bit.

I do my best to comment on every WIP I listen to (which is a lot of them), and I feel that my "comments" aren't uninformed or baseless on the whole -- for some genres that aren't my forte? Maybe.

I like to think that I've been more helpful than detrimental -- most people who ask my advice (or don't) usually end up thanking me for it, as it has done nothing but improved their piece.

Whenever I throw up a WIP, it's the usual cadre of 80% useful ego strokejob replies ("this rocks!!!!!!!"), but there's still that 20% that is actually quite helpful.

In terms of passing by people I don't recognize? Nope -- if anything, if I don't recognize your name I'm MORE likely to give it a listen.

What I DO sometimes pass over are tunes that I am not familiar with, though that's not as often as it used to be (usually in my comments I'll say that I'm not familiar with the tune anyway).

Although for the feedback form, I think I'm the ONLY one who uses it.

[DarkeSword]

Although for the feedback form, I think I'm the ONLY one who uses it.

And we thank you for that. Do you find it helpful? I'm genuinely curious.

[Nekofrog]

And we thank you for that. Do you find it helpful? I'm genuinely curious.

Very much so. I think the reason people don't use it is it actually requires that one listen to the piece a couple times at least, gather their thoughts about it, and then apply each set of criteria to it while listening. I can see why this can get a bit disheartening because people like to be able to listen to something once, maybe twice at most, and then say "this is wrong, this is wrong, and this is wrong".

But it can't be done that way, because even reviewing a WIP is still -reviewing- something, so it's going to take a bit more work.

It boils down to this; I have time to do it. I work a job that keeps me on a computer doing absolutely nothing until something else computer-related breaks elsewhere, then I get to leave for a few minutes. (1 hour of real work a day, 7 of internet free time). I'm not bragging or anything, this actually ties into the first point I made; since I have the TIME to do this I don't MIND doing it.

Most of the people perusing the WIP forums fall into select categories:

1. Remixers who review WIPs: they tend to have a better critical ear than most, because they know what it can take to get through and be accepted. However these are the fewest in terms of present population on the WIP board because really, if you're a remixer who's serious about remixing you don't have a ton of time OUTSIDE of remixing to review OTHER people's WIPs.

2. OCRemix listeners who review WIPs: this is where 90% of the "this is kewl!" or "this sux" posts come from. They're there just to hear the music, not critique it in any general way other than enjoying/disliking it.

The complaints about the WIP board stem from a general lack of feedback which is certainly true in some cases, but as I said in the points above it just comes down to the fact that reviewing a piece takes time, something not a lot of people have. It's not always a disinterest in the piece itself, glossing over a post because of someone's name, etc.

I think I've rambled a ton (and I'm switching between this and a WIP in another tab right now , so essentially, YES the checklist is very helpful, to me.

[Tensei]

I have to admit that I'm sort of guilty of this. I browse the wip forum pretty often and I consider the feedback I give mostly at the 'useful' end of the spectrum. That said, I have a HUGE bias when it comes to listening to stuff, never mind actually giving feedback.

I'm 10x more likely to click on a new wip thread from someone I know or if it uses a source tune I enjoy. Heck, if you have the words " Metal Remix" or "Rock Remix" in the thread title that's pretty much a guaranteed listen from me.

My point is, people are biased, people are lazy, and people generally don't have 7 hours to spend with reviewing wips like Nekofrog here. I really can't think of any feasible way to solve this other than actually PMing/IMing people you want to look at your wip.

Again, I'd like to point anyone who wants feedback to #ocrwip, where I hang out for most of the day and if I'm not AFK and someone asks me to listen to something, you're GUARANTEED to get feedback from me.

[Nekofrog]

Again, I'd like to point anyone who wants feedback to #ocrwip, where I hang out for most of the day and if I'm not AFK and someone asks me to listen to something, you're GUARANTEED to get feedback from me.

THIS. #ocrwip is superior to the WIP board simply because it's realtime; if you put something up I can listen to it (should I be present) and we can work through it on a more personal level to get the result that YOU, the mixer, want/need.

I point to Diseased's Gold Medal Challenge '92 / Double Dribble wip as evidence of that. Because he brought it to #ocrwip in ADDITION to the boards, we were able to isolate the issue (muddy guitars) in no time flat and now his mix sounds very, very good compared to the first one.

[Hy Bound]

I also am having a hard time bringing myself around to actually commenting on wips and the like. But most of the time its because I also don't ever seem to get comments myself when I post something in the wip:other forum other than the few people who I talk to outside OCRemix. I'm not complaining for my sake, I'm just trying to admit the reason I'm so reluctant to comment on other's work after going through the same myself. Yes, I agree its selfish, but for a while I would comment on everybody I could when I could find the time and when it came time for my wip thread to be commented on I'd get the few people I knew outside OCRemix and no one else. Not the many, many people I commented on (over the history of my posting on there, there have been maybe 4 people who reciprocated with comments).

So basically what I'm saying is that there are a literal TON of people posting their remix and original WIPs on the wip forum and then they complain about how nobody comments on their mix when they won't spend the time to comment on others. I know this doesn't apply to everyone who has problems getting posts in the wip forums, but it is a great number of them.

I also think that maybe the wip forums should get some more of the limelight. Maybe having a kind of ranking system for people posting worthwhile opinions, like I believe Fishy said. The kind of RPG fanaticism that burns in the loins of many of the people who visit here would ache to get a higher medal or something in that category. I know its kinda lame, but it would also serve to see if the people complaining about having their remix/original judged are reciprocating for everyone else. It wouldn't have to be a deeply involved system of hierarchy, but it would serve to both promote the wip forums (to show it on their forum header) and see who the good, able-judging people are.

I dunno, thats my two-cents.

[DJMetal]

Okay, I'll just throw this out there for myself and other n00bs who don't know the first thing about actually making music. I would post on the WIP boards, except that I have no idea how to critique anything. I can honestly say I don't know what a "back beat" is, and although I can tell you what I personally like, that has nothing to do with the objective quality of the track. I'd love to give feedback, if I thought I had anything valid or useful to say, but to be honest, I think whatever I might post would be under the "blahblahblah" category. I guess that's my bit.

DJ Metal

[Meteo Xavier]

As someone who's bitched about the wasting of time that the WIP boards often does far better than fetch any real progress, what I've found is that the board was designed to do so. It was never meant to be designed as a panacea for n00bs like you and me to get good quick, it was only meant to give you, at best, an idea of the reality of your project.

Here's how it works: You're basically a nobody posting part of a song with a random level of quality to other nobodies who rarely exceed a quality of music critique other than knowing how to press play on Winamp. They have no real attachment to you and you have no real attachment to them. What else can you expect out of it?

The problem here is realistic expectations. You can't really expect to show up in a flooded market with half a song that sucks and expect a throng of John Q. Pubics to surround you and be able to identify the mixing/mastering/composition problems just by listening to it. So how do you get better if you can't get any help? The WIP boards are a Catch 22, no doubt. But at least with an idea like "it's too muddy" "fix the whatever at 1:26", you can see there is something wrong with the bass and at 1:26. You'll have to fix it yourself, and thats how you really learn how to arrange and compose.

My advice is to keep trying, but be realistic. Post it, wait a few days while you do something else, and see what you get.

[avaris]

This is always a good topic to talk about. My 2 cents...

The most important part regardless of skill level for both the remixer and reviewer is honesty. As a reviewer even if you don't know the technical terms at least try to explain the problems in simple terms. Chances are the remixer themselves might not know the technical terms either.

As a remixer it's important IMO to be honest about your music. Recognize what's good and what is not. You should be your best critic, it will help you develop faster in the long run. For instance listen to your mix and then compare to either a similar professional song or a posted remix you like and see what the differences are. Those differences are what you need to improve on.

As far as reviewing WIPs an RPG system would be cool. Or some type of WIP moderator. Or approved WIP Reviewer. Another system would be for people to "approve" or "dissaprove" of a review. Although that system can be abused very easily. There are plenty of people who are not "Overclocked Remixer"'s who are awesome at reviewing songs. Something to let people know that these dudes know what they are talking about would be helpful to many musicians looking for some good advice.

[Monobrow]

I no longer really post WIPs at that board, however I review stuff sometimes, as I can understand the frustration of the OP when it comes to people actually taking the time to listen to a song and giving an opinion that's worthwhile.

While I've come to the conclusion that I can usually find what is wrong with my own songs because I'm pretty hard on myself, it is nice to have others confirm my doubts, or like something that I worked hard on... And sometimes sections that I really hate, someone may like, and I can pinpoint why I didn't like them easier... And not scratch the entire part... etc. Anyway, good advice or recognition can give someone the drive to continue. But that being said, people who rely on others to continue and post WIP after WIP can be using it as a crutch in a way. (hehe) There's a point where you need to buckle down and just work on your damn songs without waiting for everyone else's approval, because it's your song. Feedback is great and useful and good feedback really can help... But there's there's a difference between using feedback and relying on it.

I find it easier to go to someone's song and if they have given me specific areas they need to focus on or have problems with. It's easier for me to be more specific, if the person can recognize their own problems beforehand... That way we can work on a solution instead of just finding what's wrong for them. That'd be more interactive, though I'm not so sure people'd want to invest that much time into it.

A lot of my advice comes down to the ability of the person who posted the WIP. I always try to give them something that will push them, and hopefully make the song better IMO. Sometimes people respond, sometimes they don't... But anyway, that's how I go about it.

[DrumUltimA]

As far as reviewing WIPs an RPG system would be cool. Or some type of WIP moderator. Or approved WIP Reviewer. Another system would be for people to "approve" or "dissaprove" of a review. Although that system can be abused very easily. There are plenty of people who are not "Overclocked Remixer"'s who are awesome at reviewing songs. Something to let people know that these dudes know what they are talking about would be helpful to many musicians looking for some good advice.

This is interesting... I've always followed a sort of unspoken etiquette about reviewing wips--if someone with a wip comments on mine, chances are I'll go take a listen at theirs. A reward system could be nice, it would encourage people to review more, though that may result in more stupid reviews...

I've been more active in the wip forums now that school's done, but I don't really go around reviewing lots of wips--I normally review a few, and get really specific. I'll listen to the track at least 5 times while writing the wip, and I keep my eyes on that thread as more people reply/the remixer posts updates. I know it can be frustrating to not get reviews for a wip--I find myself bumping myself a lot

For those not experienced with remixing or even reviewing--use the checklist!!! The checklist is very useful for everyone, but especially if you are relatively inexperienced with the process. Everyone can hear the things they like and don't like in a remix--but the checklist will help you categorically organize your thoughts so that they would be most beneficial to the remixer. Also, saying what you don't like isn't always as helpful as why you don't like it, and how you think the remixer should fix it.

Reading the judges forums can also help with writing reviews for prospective OC Remixes--that, combined with the checklist, really helps you get into the mindset of the judges--which is the most helpful thing you can do for somebody who's trying to get a remixed passed by the judges.

[Nekofrog]

As far as reviewing WIPs an RPG system would be cool. Or some type of WIP moderator. Or approved WIP Reviewer. Another system would be for people to "approve" or "dissaprove" of a review. Although that system can be abused very easily. There are plenty of people who are not "Overclocked Remixer"'s who are awesome at reviewing songs. Something to let people know that these dudes know what they are talking about would be helpful to many musicians looking for some good advice.

I think the system, as flawed as it is now, is fine as it is.

Any attempt to change it to a "tiered" system would breed elitism.

A moderator would be just one step below a judge, so what's the point?

[zircon]

The idea of WIP moderators or approved reviewers isn't a bad one, but we'd need to give thought to who qualifies. One issue is that we (the judges) generally snatch up anyone who has judge-level qualifications. In other words, speaking generally, the only people who are really qualified to review a WIP with regards to the OCR standards is an OCR judge. There are a handful of individuals who either don't want to be judges or were formerly judges, for example, that also qualify.

Now, the upside to this is that despite what some people say, WIP critique can be very useful even if the conclusion of the reviewer is not necessarily what a judge would conclude. There are plenty of people who are capable of hearing issues that judges would certainly point out, for example, such as bad guitar tone, unrealistic drum sequencing, conservative arrangements, etc. I am impressed by the critiques that I have seen from certain people in the WIP forum, as they often cover everything or almost everything that I would have said in a vote.

However, despite this, even the best reviewers can be misleading. Over the years, I have seen some of the most active, thorough reviewers give critiques that are "wrong" compared to what a judge would say. I've seen established ReMixers and reviewers tell someone on the WIP forums to submit a track that, to any judge, would be an obvious NO. I'd be concerned if we were to appoint a handful of people to an official non-judge position, and then end up with submitters saying "But the WIP reviewer said it was a YES!"

If we were to do something like that, we'd need a clear disclaimer that the official reviewers we have picked represent good musicians with thorough critiquing ability, but that they are nonetheless not judges and their opinion cannot be construed as such.

[Skrypnyk]

I will just echo that yes, the wip board lacks really good posts to help improve the mix. I will also echo that you're 98% more likely to get 'some' form of feedback if you visit #ocrwip, slap people till someone become active, and post a link demanding a comment (although, like the wip board, there are users who don't comment on anything, so be aware).

The RPG system sounds cool, but I'm sure that'll just give djp another excuse not to continuously post songs, work on other (probably more) important stuff, etc.

I also think the 'approved critique' thing would also be good in sifting through valid advice compared to someone saying 'this is awesome, I love it. Thxs.' However, that doesn't mean the 'approved critique' person would actually review any/all the wips in there (unless that person is Rozo). So I again suggest using #ocrwip for insta-feedback.....98% of the time.

[PhiJayy]

My point is, people are biased, people are lazy, and people generally don't have 7 hours to spend with reviewing wips like Nekofrog here. I really can't think of any feasible way to solve this other than actually PMing/IMing people you want to look at your wip.

Yeah most people are lazy when it comes to critiquing another song, but there are a variety of reasons for why. Some may feel that they aren't qualified to give a solid evaluation of the mix. So what now? I've personally PMed a few persons actually from this very theard asking for an evaluation of my mix.

This is definitely a good strategy, but you have to be careful some may consider this to be "spam." So only PM those who'll really help critique the mix in a honest way.

I'm sure most of us rarely receive PM's anyway so getting a PM is special.