WIP-Releases: Feedback, Discussion + ?s

[HoboKa]

^^ 10 char

[Dafydd]

Another thing that bothers me is when people make vague indications of what part of the song they're talking about. When you listen to an mp3, you can always tell in minutes and seconds where in the song you are. People don't use that enough.

[Rozovian]

Only if you download it/open it in some player. Just using quicktime or whatever through the browser doesn't, and there are some streaming players that don't show the time.

I know I don't always write the time, I usually just say "when the bass comes back in", "at the end of the second part of the intro", "the third iteration of the piano melody", or "half way through the break". Dunno if that's vague enough to fit what you describe (I know this does), but that's what I usually do. Or wait, do I?

On one hand, my lazy approach is relatively fast, I don't have to keep the player visible and instead focus on listening and writing the feedback. On the other hand, stating the exact times can be very useful, especially if you can't communicate well enough to the remixer what part you're talking about.

Anyway, good point, Dafydd.

[WillRock]

One thing I have just thought of - this has prob already been said - to lazy to check - The fact that you don't know when the thread has been updated. I think a solution to this would be to make thread name changes possible so when someone updates their thread, they can re-name the thread:

(name of thread) - Updated!

Or something along those lines as I tried it at some point and was unable to change the thread name (although I could change the first post title)

I say replace that with thread name change, then you can tell people when a thread has been updated.

The only thing I can think of that may be a drawback is people renaming threads to change the thread to a different topic (mainly outside the WIP forum) which may confuse people.

[Rozovian]

Well, I listed this as a problem, but had a more demanding solution, some new function that djp would have to implement. I guess thread name changing is a more plausible solution. Dunno if vbuletin allows it, but I recall phpbb allowing all kinds of subforum-specific.. stuff.

I'll add it to the list... later. It's probably the least demanding of all all the things, so that could be possible. I'll ask the staff, too.

[Tuned Logic]

Okay, I'll post my comments.

A glossary would be immensely helpful; some terms I just do not know or understand. In addition, I think a "was this post helpful" thing would be good, but some people do like to post if they like it or not. While that type feedback is not directly helpful to the project, it provides the remixer incentive to keep going. I really think there are two types of comments: critical comments and general feedback.

As an aspiring OCReMixer, the the most helpful comments are the critical ones, but they can destroy esteem. A system like this would be cool:

Rate post options by OP only:

Critical but helpful

Critical and not helpful

Positive comment (I love it, One of my faves...)

Negative comment (I don't love this, It doesn't sound right)

However, in addition, there should be a "Do you agree with this post" option for everyone who is registered (like a thumbs up thumbs down system). That way, people can indirectly sound their opinion without having to take the initiative to make a post (trust me, there are many times where I just want to say I agree with another post, but I don't feel like posting.)

Hope that helps!

[DarkeSword]

Thread renaming was possible in phpBB. It's not a default feature of vB for regular users. It was a very useful feature everywhere and I was sad to see it go.

The problem is that vB stores Thread Titles separately from Post Titles, whereas phpBB just uses the Post Title of the first post as the Thread Title. Not really sure how to give permissions to normal users to change titles for only their own threads.

[Rozovian]

Critical is always helpful, even if it doesn't come with advice and suggestions. How about...

Critical

Good advice

Encouraging

None of the above

And it should come with the option of picking more than one option, save for including the last one in any combination. Still, implementing something like this is gonna take a bit of coding, and the wip board is, last I heard, not among the coding priorities.

Anyway, I'm not sure a "do you agree with this post" option is a good idea. Some listeners have no sense of critical listening (or ignore it), and they might disagree with any and all criticism. Allowing ocremixers would be an easy way to make sure they know what they're talking about, but it would both exclude a lot of the aspiring ones, such as ourselves, and in the current state of things, there wouldn't be many on the wip board with that option.

--

If you want to help out with the glossary, just PM or email me some of the terms you have trouble with, and I'll make sure to include them. I suppose since the glossary was my idea, I might as well write it. My previous attempts haven't gotten far, but now I know there's some demand for it.

[Dafydd]

Thread renaming was possible in phpBB. It's not a default feature of vB for regular users. It was a very useful feature everywhere and I was sad to see it go.

The problem is that vB stores Thread Titles separately from Post Titles, whereas phpBB just uses the Post Title of the first post as the Thread Title. Not really sure how to give permissions to normal users to change titles for only their own threads.

As a VB customer, don't you have access to some kind of support? There should be someplace a forum admin could ask the VB makers how to do certain things, like allowing forum users to rename their own threads. I hang out at another VB forum a lot, I could ask the admin there how to do it. I never felt like there was something I wanted to be able to do but couldn't over there (but then again I've been a local mod there for like 2 years now, so...)

[WillRock]

One other small thing I've thought of - Some people view the thread of a certain remix and don't click the link.

Would there be a way of automatically opening a page from a certain link on the page i.e. the WIP link, by clicking the thread?

Basically, if I was to click on a WIP thread and the link to the remix automatically opens, playing the remix.

Kinda like how youtube automatically plays the video on said page that you view instead of you clicking on the video itself to play it.

The trouble is that there is often more than one link to a website URL in a thread page at one time - possibly a option in the to open a certain link should be a possibility?

It should increase the WIP listens and therefore increase the feedback by a small amount.

[Rozovian]

I'm not sure that's a good idea. I follow the threads a lot even when I'm not on a wip run. That means that after most new posts, +1 view count from me. Anybody else following the wip board contributes to that post count too.

Making the wip to play when you enter the thread might, for some, mean exposure, but then you have to turn down the computer volume if you're at work or elsewhere where you can't listen. Also, I tend to open a lot of tabs with different wip threads. I'd hate having to go through them all just to stop them from playing.

I don't think it'll increase feedback. If people are gonna download/stream and lsiten, they're more likely to provide feedback. Just hearing it is hardly gonna generate feedback posts. Loads of ppl listen to ocremixes, but very few of them actually post reviews.

Sorry man, good intentions, but not a good idea, imo. I suspect it'll dissuade dedicated critics (like me) more than it'll attract new ones. Well, it goes on my list when I update it.

[DarkeSword]

Link redirection from clicking a post? No thank you. There's way too much potential for abuse with that kind of thing. Plus I'm not even sure vB could do that.

I will look into embedding MP3s

[Dafydd]

Yeah, streaming from the post itself would be nice (kinda like the last.fm thing on the remixes download pages, except within the actual post, like a picture). I don't know where it should be streaming from though. But considering how you can embed youtube clips in your posts, streaming music should be possible too. A lot of people are probably put off from listening to wips because they have to click some link to some weird file host website and wait for it to download. A lot of times those file hosts put so much stuff on the download page that you don't even know where the link to the file you want actually is, and if you weren't really that interesting to start with, you're not going to go through that much trouble. I always host my stuff on my own webpage so I can give people a direct link, but I don't know if the stuff could be streamed from there very easily. Maybe something like a quicktime stream except embedded? One where you have to click somewhere to start streaming / buffering (not to mention before you start playing) so you don't waste bandwidth on people who don't want to listen anyway.

EDIT: Ok, the reply I got was "Actually you could create a usergroup with that permission and move all the users to this." (rename their own threads). Also on that forum changing the name of a thread is as simple as clicking next to the thread title in the list of threads and the name becomes an edit box (if you click next to a thread you started yourself, not other people's threads). When you're done, just click somewhere else and it saves the new name. I don't see why that wouldn't be possible here, you're running VB just like them.

[DarkeSword]

We're thinking about maybe allowing users limited space to upload WIPs here, directly to the forums, but we need to keep bandwidth in mind.

As for streaming, most bbcode I've seen for mp3s allow you to just list a URL for streaming, similar to how you embed an image. So I could technically stream from darkesword.com if I wanted to.

[Dafydd]

Ok, cool.

VGMix used to allow users to upload a limited number of wips, I think 3 (don't remember a space limit). If everyone who wanted to have it (but then you should have to ask for it and have it disabled if you abuse it) was allowed 6MB of space on OCR for attachments, I don't know how much of an impact that would have on bandwidth or space, but it could mean a lot of dead links if people had to replace one wip with another one. Then again most people would probably be better off working on only one wip at a time - but talk to the hand...

I don't really see why you would need to do something like that though - there are plenty of filehosts to go around, the only problem is that some people use really bad ones.

EDIT: I got a reply from the other Admin, he says all users able to create threads are also able to change the name of their own threads by default in VB. The problem at OCR is that even though you get the title edit box when you "go advanced", the change you make there only edits the title of the first post, not the thread itself, as it does at that forum. I have no idea why this is the case, but I'm assuming it's because of a setting that has been done on this forum, inadvertently or on purpose, since that's apparently not how a VB forum behaves by default. Also you can just click next to a thread name to rename it there, I don't know if you mods are able to do that here on OCR...?

EDIT 2: Another admin went on to say this: "Changing the title of the first post will change the title of the thread, as long as either the user is a moderator, or the time period in which thread title changes are permitted hasn't ended. This is controlled by vBulletin Options → Message Posting and Editing Options →

Time Limit on Editing of Thread Title. We have it set to 52000000, i.e., effectively forever." Maybe on this forum this time limit is set to 0, or something very short like 1-5? I've never managed to change any thread title no matter how quickly I've tried doing it.

[Incronaut]

Questions for everyone on the wip board:

#1 Do (or did) you know about OCR's resources and guidelines, like the guides, the remixing forum, the #ocrwip irc channel, the checklist, the submission standards, the remixing tab, the tutorials category...?

#2 What's the main thing you want from the wip board, what kind of feedback? Criticism, advice, suggestions, general opinion, help, encouragement... something else?

#3 What motivates you to review (if you do)? Game, remixer, genre, thread popularity... or...?

#4 Do you have an idea for improving the WIP board (see list), an observation you'd like to share, or something else to say about the WIP board and its use and quality?

#5 Is there anything in particular that bothers you about the WIP board?

1. I knew about some of them, others i just never bothered to look at... but i should haha

2. personally, probably what they liked about it, what they didnt like (in terms of arrangement, production, etc), and how they felt overall and what could be changed

3. First if i know the sourcetune, i almost always check it out. Second, if its popular, i check it out too. and 3rd if i kno the remixer somehow

4. No ideas at this time, but if I do, i'll be sure to post it up

5. Sometimes, some people who submitted a song on WIP got no feedback, so if theres someway to make sure that doesnt happen (he was like in the 2nd or 3rd page) thatd be great. otherwise i like it quite a bit.

[Sole Signal]

#1 Do (or did) you know about OCR's resources and guidelines, like the guides, the remixing forum, the #ocrwip irc channel, the checklist, the submission standards, the remixing tab, the tutorials category...?

Sure do, haven't really used any of them though.

#2 What's the main thing you want from the wip board, what kind of feedback? Criticism, advice, suggestions, general opinion, help, encouragement... something else?

Really the main reason I post stuff on the WIP forum is to share what I'm currently working on and see people enjoy it. I'm my own worst critic when producing, and I tend to end up fixing most of the critiques people (rightfully) have as I work my way through the track.

#3 What motivates you to review (if you do)? Game, remixer, genre, thread popularity... or...?

Game and source tune, definitely. Glancing through the WIP forums from time to time, I try to comment on those sources that I'm familiar with. If I'm not familiar with the source, I usually don't bother unless it's a remixer that I like.

#4 Do you have an idea for improving the WIP board (see list), an observation you'd like to share, or something else to say about the WIP board and its use and quality?

I know when I posted my first WIP thread about two years ago, I didn't really know what I was doing. I thought I did, but now looking back I wonder what I was thinking. My first mix was rejected and I was pretty frustrated, thinking that my mix was well above par. In retrospect, their comments were very helpful but I just didn't make the connection between what was wrong and how to fix it, especially productionally. All you can do is just keep practicing and learn by doing.

#5 Is there anything in particular that bothers you about the WIP board?

See #3, not enough remixes from games I've actually played and sources I'm familiar with.

[Nekofrog]

I've gone on long enough without saying it, but that face always reminds me of a South Park Canadian.

Budday.

[BlackPanther]

#1 Do (or did) you know about OCR's resources and guidelines, like the guides, the remixing forum, the #ocrwip irc channel, the checklist, the submission standards, the remixing tab, the tutorials category...?

Yes never bothered to utilize any of that stuff except the #ocrwip channel but that doesn't work for me for some reason =/.

#2 What's the main thing you want from the wip board, what kind of feedback? Criticism, advice, suggestions, general opinion, help, encouragement... something else?

As much as I love the feedback. What I really want is to see people use that checklist because critiques wasn't enough to give my recent submission a yes when the things I was lacking coulda been checked in the checklist. So what I'm tryin to get at is critiques that follow the submission standards all the way through

#3 What motivates you to review (if you do)? Game, remixer, genre, thread popularity... or...?

Pretty much what Audix said

#4 Do you have an idea for improving the WIP board (see list), an observation you'd like to share, or something else to say about the WIP board and its use and quality?

Don't really know what to improve really. I'm still a nubie to this place, so I have a lot to learn myself but what I can say is that when people do give replies about the wip at hand, people are pretty useful in what you should add or what's wrong even if it is on the personal level

#5 Is there anything in particular that bothers you about the WIP board?

Even if it's not mine, the fact that some peoples wip's go unnoticed. But I don't really have any suggestions about that. And the fact that people don't provide ample critiquing on wips meaning the stuff that truly matters like I was told when they judged it, they told me the treble was too high, not enough "meat on the textures" but I wasn't told any of this in the wip forums so yeah...

[Rozovian]

Without turning this into the checklist debate, let me remind you that the wip board isn't the same thing as the Js' panel, and short of having judges or judge-level reviewers on the wip board we're not gonna have judge-level feedback, and no amount of checklist usage is gonna change people's critical hearing skills.

Besides, you got 3 RESUB votes, and now you know what the Js think. I'd say that's a pretty good outcome. Now, improve it and resub.

Also, feel free to provide ample critiquing for the unnoticed wips. I've been hanging out on the wip board a while now, and my production ears have improved significantly. I'm not on a professional level yet, but I've learned a lot. So would you.

[WillRock]

As much as I love the feedback. What I really want is to see people use that checklist because critiques wasn't enough to give my recent submission a yes when the things I was lacking coulda been checked in the checklist. So what I'm tryin to get at is critiques that follow the submission standards all the way through

Maybe it would be a better idea to use the checklist as a guideline for critiquing, without copy and pasting the checklist itself. So you are writing everything in your own words, and going through the checklist as you critique, mentioning the parts that don't meet criteria and praising parts that do.

I don't know about other people on that critique here, but on the rare occasion that I do it, I don't use the checklist as a guide, I write down what I can think of. Using the checklist makes you listen out for the things that matter in the piece that may improve your feedback, and there is no reason not to write it all in your own words. It may help improve the quality of critiquing in this forum.

I'll use it as a guideline for later crits of wips (but not copy and paste it to replies as suggested by the judges). I suggest other people do the same, and see if your critiques improve because of it

[Rozovian]

Dunno whose idea it was, think it was mine but I'm not sure, to put the checklist in a button like the bold text and other formatting tags, url, pic, and other button above the text field. I've got no idea if the code for it accessible, but just a button for adding the text of the checklist would make it more accessible as you don't have to manually copy-paste or type it. Something worth adding to djp's long list of stuff to do with the site?

[djpretzel]

EDIT 2: Another admin went on to say this: "Changing the title of the first post will change the title of the thread, as long as either the user is a moderator, or the time period in which thread title changes are permitted hasn't ended. This is controlled by vBulletin Options → Message Posting and Editing Options →

Time Limit on Editing of Thread Title. We have it set to 52000000, i.e., effectively forever." Maybe on this forum this time limit is set to 0, or something very short like 1-5? I've never managed to change any thread title no matter how quickly I've tried doing it.

Dude, way to be proactive. Seriously, this type of action on your part saves time on mine and makes the site better. Thanks for looking into it, I owe you one, and it's something we would have changed way sooner had it been clear.

[Dafydd]

Dude, way to be proactive. Seriously, this type of action on your part saves time on mine and makes the site better. Thanks for looking into it, I owe you one, and it's something we would have changed way sooner had it been clear.

No problem (finding the info for you I mean). I wish I could ask someone to give me the script to implement mascot clickability as well, but I guess I'm just going to have to wait... would be an adequate way of repaying the favor though, and it too would make the site better.

EDIT: It's working! Yay! And you can double-click next to a thread's name to change the name into an edit box. Once people have learned about and how to use this feature, the wip forum will be a much better place.

[hewhoisiam]

Greetings, salutations, and I love this:sleepdepriv: face!

So, I have this thing I can post, but I have some questions first:

This thing isn't really a remix, it's more like a MIDI's journey through Cakewalk. I took said midi and played with it, changed instruments, played with soft synths. Did a half hour of mixing over the past 8-10 hours. Learned all about erm, everything. The only writing I did was totally re-wrote the drum track. (being a drummer, I hated the original) And throw a very simple chord thing in quarter notes in one spot where the thinger started repeating. Very little actual writing/mixing went into this.

In terms of flow, it doesn't. There's an intro. And then an idea, another idea, and my chords added to the first idea. THEN all that is repeated. When I say not a remix, I mean not really a song in structure BUT if you like listening to a plain MIDI, you'll love it. (sell the weaknesses as strengths! I saw this in a movie once)

NOW though, I'm going 'this isn't very good' And it isn't. Don't get me wrong, it's not that bad, It's just that you'll see a very much lack of understanding of some of the finer points of the software. I had times going I really like what (insert name here) did there; but I don't know how to do it And it's not original, and it gets stale, and it's just not done or anywhere near what I'd consider up to snuff. Which is why I'm not entirley sure this is a good spot for it.

Really, I want to post it for just 2 reasons. Questions is the first and main reason. And the other is baby steps. Just starting out, dusting off my brain from high school jazz band, remembering how this works. I'm pretty sure no one starts out a god at this, but everyone has to start somewhere. It'd be a good 'where do I go from here?' for me while I scour the intranets for tutorials. (reading through zircon's again couldn't hurt either)

I'll watch this thread for a reply.

Thanks

-Hewhoisiam