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Liontamer

WIP-Releases: Feedback, Discussion + ?s

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If you have any comments or questions related to the Works-in-Progress forum, let's focus them here. We do want to improve the visibility of the forums and ease for artists to receive feedback, keeping in mind that the judging staff doesn't have the free time to step in and do that directly. So let's see what we can come up with.

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Questions for everyone on the wip board:

#1 Do (or did) you know about OCR's resources and guidelines, like the guides, the remixing forum, the #ocrwip irc channel, the checklist, the submission standards, the remixing tab, the tutorials category...?

#2 What's the main thing you want from the wip board, what kind of feedback? Criticism, advice, suggestions, general opinion, help, encouragement... something else?

#3 What motivates you to review (if you do)? Game, remixer, genre, thread popularity... or...?

#4 Do you have an idea for improving the WIP board (see list), an observation you'd like to share, or something else to say about the WIP board and its use and quality?

#5 Is there anything in particular that bothers you about the WIP board?

--

FAQ (more like Good Questions)

How do I link to source, where can I find source music, and what about the legal issues with it?

There's a few different sources you can link to. vgmusic's midis are a fair comparison, especially if they're transcribed well. A link to an archive of the game OST works too, but not everyone has chipamp or other means of listening to it (I'm on mac, no chipamp for me). Youtube is common and works well. Then there's khinsider and galbadia hotel, neither of which offers legal downloads but it works for comparison.

I'd be good to have an official answer from a judge, which I'll add once it's provided.

--

Diverse problems:

- there are not enough replies.

- the quality of the replies vary.

- it isn't always clear if a post is a release or a wip, or whether the wip is for ocr or not.

- sometimes, the source isn't linked or even specified.

- the standards bar isn't clear (e.g. "how conservative is too conservative?").

- reviewers might not notice when a wip has been updated.

- no incentive to review.

- remixers might not notice when their wip has received feedback.

Diverse solutions:

Certified WIP Reviewer

- requires a wip reviewer reviewer with nearjudge qualifications

- requires people with time

- could make posters disregard posts by non-certified reviewers

- could dissuade non-certified listeners from reviewing

+ would let everyone know if the reviewing provides a good critique

+ an incentive for reviewing

Judge or Judges Posting in wips

- judges do not necessarily have the time (submissions queue)

- might yield a different verdict than the final judging

- could dissuade non-judges from reviewing

+ quality of reviews would increase to around the submission standard level

Incorporating "Was this review helpful?" into the wip board

- would need to be coded

+ would let reviewers know when their reviews are useful

+ could be incorporated into rpg system

Incorporating the checklist into the reply page

- would need to be coded

- is either obtrusive on reply page or folded and hard to notice

- might dissuade reviewers from commenting

+ would give reviewers quick access to the checklist

Filtering out poor feedback

- requires an active moderator

- might dissuade people from posting in fear of wasting their time

+ would improve quality of feedback

Split WIPs and Releases

- might attract most traffic to releases, not to wips

+ would lessen confusion between the two

RPG system with points for wip reviews

- would need to be coded

- quantity over quality

- could make posters disregard posts by lower-rank reviewers

+ might incorporate "Was this review helpful?" or "Thanks"

+ an incentive for reviewing

WIP awareness month

+ would attract people to wip board

Forum member wip blog

- would need to be coded

+ could display recent wips in sig or post header

Adding wip links to game pages

- would need to be coded

+ would increase visibility of wips

Letting the OP flag his thread as having been updated

- would need to be coded

- could turn the wip board into a step-by-step tutoring forum

+ would let reviewers know if they've commented on the most recent update

Incorporating a "Thanks" system into the wip board

- would need to be coded

- could favor positive feedback over constructive criticism

+ would let reviewers know when their reviews are appreciated

+ could be incorporated into rpg system

A glossary and FAQ about remixing - what you need, what's what, and what newbs sometimes do wrong

- wouldn't help the WIP boards directly

- could make people use language they've only learned in the glossary

- could increase newb activity on the wip board and overwhelm the reviewers

+ would make remixing more available to people, possibly increasing activity on the WIP board

+ would allow people to look up terms they're unfamiliar with or unsure of (adsr, compression, counterpoint, dissonance)

+ would give reviewers without significant remixing skills an insight into the process, thus improving their critique

A group of non-judges able to give a fair prediction for the J's vote

- no guarrantee they're right

- would need to be moderated

- requires people with time

+ would provide remixers with feedback on their finished version

+ group membership might serve as an incentive for good feedback

Present wips in a more trafficked part of the site, on hourly rotation

- would need to be coded/managed

+ would attract people to the wip threads

Reviewing quota to be filled before posting own wips

- might dissuade users from using ocr's wip board

- no quality control for wip reviews

+would increase wip feedback

--

Keep suggesting, ppl. Not sure I got everything that has been mentioned, and I don't think everything has been mentioned yet. Thanks to everyone who've suggested something (in this thread or others) or pointed out a problem with the wip board.

-end of post-

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Would it be by any means feasible to have, in addition to the submissions-judging panel, one or two liaisons to the WIP board? Here's my idea:

They could be newly-selected, like judges are, or perhaps additional duties for selected judges (though this would require more judges on the panel anyway). And rather than being the exclusive means for judgment, these WIP liaisons could help foster better reviews by awarding the better comments & members with some seal of approval ("OCR-approved reviewer", "exemplary review", maybe even something like "review/reviewer of the month"), and perhaps provide guidance to reviewers who need it, while at least occasionally giving WIPs input of their own.

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It's been suggested, but J's don't have the time to post here. Reviewing reviewers is a good thing, DrumUltimA asked for zircon's feedback on one of his review posts, and I followed his example. The J's, however, can't take initiative for it.

The "good wip reviewer" status thing also requires someone that knows the standards very well. Someone's gotta read the feedback, listen to the remixes, sources, and so on... without someone to do that, it's not gonna happen.

It's one of those often suggested ideas, and it's a good one. Sadly, it takes manpower.

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Yeah, part of the issue is that anybody really qualified to be in that position is probably qualified to be a judge, which means that they either are already a judge, or they don't have time to be one. If they're not really qualified to be in that position, then we wouldn't want them misleading people, right?

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(this post has been copied to post #2)

I have two questions, the first especially for those fairly new to the wip board:

#1 Do (or did) you know about OCR's resources and guidelines, like the guides, the remixing forum, the #ocrwip irc channel, the checklist, the submission standards, the remixing tab...?

#2 What's the main thing you want from the wip board, what kind of feedback? Criticism, advice, suggestions, general opinion, help, encouragement...

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Well...some the J's pain might be resolved if they...gee, I dunno lowered their standards by a few notches?

Also...I've seen some major inconsistencies in what gets accepted or what doesn't. For instance...if I made a cover song of the water level for DKC, it'd get a NO. But if Mazedude did it...wow - somehow he gets an automatic acceptance!!

Furthermore, there's a huge rift between certain J's like say Palpable and DS, who have different ideas of what makes good music, well, good. And on a broader viewpoint, the whole concept of what makes music good is NOT really consistent with the AVERAGE listenner. Only the "trained" ears of a remixer (minus Liontamer who's just a very diligent reviewer) can somehow "divine" what makes a song decent, when in fact only a small portion of the people here may agree with their viewpoint. Thus, that is the conundrum here.

So how the *$^% are we supposed to critique other people's works when half the time it goes in vain, due to the varieties of opinions (and blatant nepotism) in this site??

You can call me down, or call me a moron all you want - but this forum can't deny the truth. So if you guys disagree and say "fuck you, nub"; so be it.

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There's a huge rift between certain J's like say Palpable and DS, who have different ideas of what makes good music, well, good. And on a broader viewpoint, the whole concept of what makes music good is NOT really consistent with the AVERAGE listenner. Only the "trained" ears of a remixer (minus Liontamer who's just a very diligent reviewer) can somehow "divine" what makes a song decent, when in fact only a small portion of the people here may agree with their viewpoint. Thus, that is the conundrum here.

So how the *$^% are we supposed to critique other people's works when half the time it goes in vain, due to the varieties of opinions (and blatant nepotism) in this site??

Well I disagree with you there HoboKa, the judges don't review on personal taste, they review on critria that remixers have to fulfull.

However I do agree on your comment about reviewing remixes only to be picked apart by the judges.

I think one qualified person to through the forums isn't going to happen -someone that qualified would be a judge or become one.

I suggest a different angle. I have found as a remixer (not an overclocked one) that people do have different views on tracks but some of the crits are the same for some people. I suggest promoting the forum in some way, and getting the WIP forum more views and thus, more feedback. If more than one person says the same crit, then i have found personally when i get a multiple crit on one of my mixes, changing it usually has good results. 10 ears are better than 2 right?

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Also...I've seen some major inconsistencies in what gets accepted or what doesn't. For instance...if I made a cover song of the water level for DKC, it'd get a NO. But if Mazedude did it...wow - somehow he gets an automatic acceptance!!

Mazedude makes good music, and not getting a song accepted isn't a big deal.

edit: You will get a remix accepted eventually at the rate you are improving.

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Well...some the J's pain might be resolved if they...gee, I dunno lowered their standards by a few notches?

Also...I've seen some major inconsistencies in what gets accepted or what doesn't. For instance...if I made a cover song of the water level for DKC, it'd get a NO. But if Mazedude did it...wow - somehow he gets an automatic acceptance!!

...Mazedude doesn't have any DKC remixes? This is just a blank assertion based on nothing. Even if he did submit a cover, it WOULD be rejected outright. It'd be nice if you came up with an actual example of a major inconsistency.

Furthermore, there's a huge rift between certain J's like say Palpable and DS, who have different ideas of what makes good music, well, good.

Me passing your work doesn't mean I think its "good". I judge it based on the standards. If the arrangement works regardless of style and the production is clean enough that it doesn't detract from the arrangement, it passes. AeroZ submitted the most badass peice of awesome I've ever heard and I had to reject it because most of it was original, and he's a "site favourite" if you will.

So how the *$^% are we supposed to critique other people's works when half the time it goes in vain, due to the varieties of opinions (and blatant nepotism) in this site??

There's always going to be a variety of opinions, its human variation. Not everyone hears everything the same way, but the point of having so many judges is that you get an average perception of a few people who've shown to have good musical ears, which usually balances it out.

Also I'd say that blatant nepotism could do with a blatant example.

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Incorporating "Was this review helpful?" into the wip board

- would need to be coded

+ would let reviewers know when their reviews are useful

+ could be incorporated into rpg system

The Ubuntu forums (running on vBulletin as well) have a "thanking" system in place for people who can solve other people's problems, and every user has a total count of "Thanks" they get from people, listed alongside post count.

I'm not sure if this was coded by the Ubuntu web staff or if it's part of vBulletin or if it's a plugin that you can purchase. But it shouldn't be too hard to implement I imagine... maybe. I'm not too sure lol.

Should anyone be able to "vote" for the best critiques in any thread? or should it only be the OP - the person with the WIP seeking criticism - who can vote for the best reviews?

While I'm at it, I'll copy and paste my thoughts that I suggested in the VGMix thread on the matter of the future of the WIP board.

---

At any rate, I don't mind constructive criticism, and I even agree with you, it's just that it had already been said, and chiming in to echo the sentiment is less helpful than specific recommendations.

I probably should PM this or something because I'm not sure if you'll read this here. But here goes.

How exactly do you suggest we go about making specific recommendations? I think there are obvious issues behind opening a new thread in Community asking a very broad question, such as, "How do we make the site better?", and even "How can we improve the WIP/Feedback forums?" might result in ideas that are too unwieldy, unclear or underdeveloped for real progress to be made. Besides, if every interested user posted in it, and if every forum troll posted in it frequently, it would become difficult to sort through the ideas, let alone consider the advantages of one over another.

I'm not exactly sure if this community can handle it, but... as in some open source software projects (KOffice is coming to mind), when some software/group of software reach(es) a point of maturity and stability, but need new features or a slight overhaul, the maintainers of the project might hold a competition of sorts where people submit a complete, detailed description of the changes they would like to see implemented, perhaps even including mockups of how the software would look with the changes. And best of all, because of all the work involved, it prevents every single user from writing up such a suggestion, and it helps ensure that there is some coherence to the ideas being suggested.

I propose OC ReMix hold a similar event, where people submit basically a paper/essay/proposal (vocabulary is failing me, I'm sure there's a better word for this) that outlines, details, and helps envision what changes should be made to the site.

The main problem though is that only you really know the in's and out's of the code that makes this site tick, and I guess I doubt you're willing to give too much information away, although information may not be necessary, since you're going to be the one who is implementing it anyway. If an idea is just impossible to implement with the current infrastructure, then it just can't be implemented.

And, once everyone submits their fully-elaborated ideas, you could (or ... the judges? or someone? this will probably be the most time consuming aspect) figure out which idea(s) are the easiest to understand and visualize, the easiest to implement, the easiest to maintain, the most useful, the fastest, the least compromisable, etc., and perhaps even fuze aspects of different ideas to create the actual site.

AND even if the main goal of this method is to limit the ideas that pour in, I still believe it is possible to include any user that wishes to make suggestions: through devolution. Obviously it would be difficult for one person to read every user's ideas, but if a subforum could be devoted to the discussion of ideas of how to improve the site, where users interested in making a proposal can take the ideas discussed within it and present, as a thread, a draft of their proposal to the community, and then (here's the devolution) each individual proposer can deal with the feedback they receive on their own ideas and finally create a substantive proposal to be submitted for evaluation.

Which, ironically, would make this sort of like the WIP forum, where users are instead critiquing other users' ideas and synthesizing them to make their own massive... proposals.

And of course this would need a serious (and not-too-distant) deadline. You can't just leave it open-ended: procrastinators with good ideas will not be able to sit themselves down to write their ideas (I don't know about you but I get some of my best ideas and thinking done under pressure), and because the proposal(s) (themselves) will take time to implement. Plus the average user is none-too-patient: a deadline would do much good for people to see that steps are being taken towards change, to know that, "Alright, by x date, we'll have seen all the ideas and given input on them, and we'll know that the ball is now in the admin(s) court."

Now the ball is in your court Mr. Pretzel. (this is making me hungry) I've given you my idea. What do you think?

---

Though the issue is this thread is not getting the attention it needs to be getting - probably needs more publicity or something. Because at this point suggestions aren't becoming out of hand or unwieldy. Except maybe for this one. lol.

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The Ubuntu forums (running on vBulletin as well) have a "thanking" system in place for people who can solve other people's problems, and every user has a total count of "Thanks" they get from people, listed alongside post count.

I'm not sure if this was coded by the Ubuntu web staff or if it's part of vBulletin or if it's a plugin that you can purchase. But it shouldn't be too hard to implement I imagine... maybe. I'm not too sure lol.

Should anyone be able to "vote" for the best critiques in any thread? or should it only be the OP - the person with the WIP seeking criticism - who can vote for the best reviews?

---

Though the issue is this thread is not getting the attention it needs to be getting - probably needs more publicity or something. Because at this point suggestions aren't becoming out of hand or unwieldy. Except maybe for this one. lol.

The thanks idea is pretty much like the "helpful?" idea, with the one difference that the OP could thank anyone saying something nice about his/her wip, while the question as to whether or not the reply was helpful is a bit more specific. I'll add it to the list anyway.

Personally, I think the WIP boards could be improved significantly by dealing with the quality of replies and splitting the forum into separate wips and releases forums, which shouldn't require any coding. The problem is _how_ to improve the quality.

I'd like any remixers and wip posters to answer my two questions on the first page as it could help us understand the current perceived role of the wip board better.

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#2 What's the main thing you want from the wip board, what kind of feedback? Criticism, advice, suggestions, general opinion, help, encouragement...

Hmm... I would say that I personally look for advice, suggestions and general opinions when I post to the WIP forum.

.

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#1 Do (or did) you know about OCR's resources and guidelines, like the guides, the remixing forum, the #ocrwip irc channel, the checklist, the submission standards, the remixing tab...?

I know I'm not new to the WIP boards, but yes. Sometimes I use the irc channel if my topics aren't getting much attention.

#2 What's the main thing you want from the wip board, what kind of feedback? Criticism, advice, suggestions, general opinion, help, encouragement...

All of the above. Really, I'm up for any kind of comments, whether they are specifically helpful or vaguely encouraging. Of course, the whole reason I post in the WIP board is to get critique before trying to submit somewhere. However, I think it's important for reviewers to encourage at the same time. It makes the remixer feel like "yay if I work some more on this it'll be awesome" instead of "I CAN'T LOOK AT THIS ANYMORE D:"

And I like it when people mention specific problems and/or solutions. Never say something vague like "I don't like [instrument]." Say "the [instrument] sounds too mechanical; try varying the note velocities." Too often I see comments that try to be helpful, but really aren't whatsoever. Be specific.

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Well...some the J's pain might be resolved if they...gee, I dunno lowered their standards by a few notches?

That doesn't help people become better musicians and it lowers the site's reputation for high quality, creative arrangements. Not gonna happen. :-D

Also...I've seen some major inconsistencies in what gets accepted or what doesn't. For instance...if I made a cover song of the water level for DKC, it'd get a NO. But if Mazedude did it...wow - somehow he gets an automatic acceptance!!

So how the *$^% are we supposed to critique other people's works when half the time it goes in vain, due to the varieties of opinions (and blatant nepotism) in this site??

"Oh yeah, whatever Mazedude sends, automatic YES." Yeah, I agree with you all the way. We NEVER reject established community members or judges for submitting arrangements that are too conservative.

http://www.ocremix.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2490

http://www.ocremix.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2569

http://www.ocremix.org/forums/showthread.php?t=2815

http://www.ocremix.org/forums/showthread.php?t=12719

:tomatoface:

Like Fishy says, you need some proof, not just your convictions. We work hard to call things fairly and objectively, even when judging the so-called A-listers.

Furthermore, there's a huge rift between certain J's like say Palpable and DS, who have different ideas of what makes good music, well, good. And on a broader viewpoint, the whole concept of what makes music good is NOT really consistent with the AVERAGE listenner. Only the "trained" ears of a remixer (minus Liontamer who's just a very diligent reviewer) can somehow "divine" what makes a song decent, when in fact only a small portion of the people here may agree with their viewpoint. Thus, that is the conundrum here.

I've worked with DS and Palp for a long time; I've never seen any huge philosophical differences in how they apply the standards. Also, it's not difficult to "divine" what makes a good submission; the WIP checklist is a very comprehensive resource that I wish more people would internalize and use, because it lists almost any issue why a submission would not make it.

You can call me down, or call me a moron all you want - but this forum can't deny the truth. So if you guys disagree and say "fuck you, nub"; so be it.

:lol: Sorry, bro, you just have a ways to improve as a musician. There isn't any nepotism just because you have yet to have a mix posted. ("I want the truth!" - "You can't handle the truth!")

Fishy told you what was up.

I will try to get to these WIP forum ideas later this weekend and comment on the list of ideas so far.

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Modifying the genre, chord progression, instrumentation, rhythms, dynamics, tempo, or overall composition of the source material.

Bearing in mind its an older mix from the lower bar days and no one who voted on it has been a judge for years; The mix makes at least subtle change in everything above except the chord progression. I agree that it sounds quite conservative, but even djp noted in the writeup that the arrangement aspects were pretty subtle and more arrangement would've made it fit OCR a bit better.

Also this can't really count as Nepotism/Favoritism as bLiNd only had 2 mixes when this was posted and he wasn't really the just plain unfairly awesome maker of Electro he is now.

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fine, I stand corrected... stupid freakin' high bar...

But explain this one Lion boy :P

http://www.ocremix.org/remix/OCR00778/

this one is pretty much a cover x_x

As Fishy noted, it's 6 years old and the arrangement standards were lower. It's still expansive for its day. The bar has moved higher and the current standards stress that you need to compare mixes in the last year to get a good idea where the current bar is. For another example of a strong mix with a conservative melodic arrangement, check out http://www.ocremix.org/remix/OCR01747/

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Just thought of yet another problem with the wip board - you never know if a wip has been updated. Sure, the OP posts edits the first post, posts a new post to say it's been updated (sometimes including the link to the new wip)... A regular reviewer, or someone who's invested a lot of listening time and comments in helping someone with their track doesn't know it's updated until he/she checks the thread. The OP could flag the thread with an update, so anyone who's commented since the last version knows it's been updated since.

Yeah, takes a little coding. I'm adding this to the list on post #2.

Also:

Questions for everyone on the wip board:

#1 Do (or did) you know about OCR's resources and guidelines, like the guides, the remixing forum, the #ocrwip irc channel, the checklist, the submission standards, the remixing tab, the tutorials category...?

#2 What's the main thing you want from the wip board, what kind of feedback? Criticism, advice, suggestions, general opinion, help, encouragement...

#3 What motivates you to review (if you do)? Game, remixer, genre, thread popularity...

#4 Do you have an idea for improving the WIP board (see list), an observation you'd like to share, or something else to say about the WIP board and its use and quality?

Thanks to Willrock and Hylian Lemon who've already answered this, the rest of you wip board users could do so too, so reviewers know what they should say.

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Just thought of yet another problem with the wip board - you never know if a wip has been updated. Sure, the OP posts edits the first post, posts a new post to say it's been updated (sometimes including the link to the new wip)... A regular reviewer, or someone who's invested a lot of listening time and comments in helping someone with their track doesn't know it's updated until he/she checks the thread. The OP could flag the thread with an update, so anyone who's commented since the last version knows it's been updated since.

True, what I do is post a new reply, but people still don't know that the link is updated, just that a there is a new post by me, which could be anything.

Also, I have happened to notice (I'm not sure if this is in the list on post 2 already) but the more popular games get more views than lesser games and the little known games don't get the attention they deserve. basically, some threads are ignored, because people don't know the source tune (or game) of the remix in the thread.

Also in answer to HoboKa's not fair comment, it says in the submission standards and instructions page under the evaluation heading:

'Submissions will generally be evaluated relative to recently posted ReMixes; ReMixes posted over a year ago may not represent current standards for arrangement and production'

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Regardless, it's still not fair.

We already went back and removed all of the actual standards violations during the final lockdown. Standards evolve and the site grows. The bar went higher and higher and it's settled at a comfortable position. "It's not fair" doesn't cut it as an argument. You want us to go back and rejudge everything? That's not fair.

Stop whining.

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We already went back and removed all of the actual standards violations during the final lockdown. Standards evolve and the site grows. The bar went higher and higher and it's settled at a comfortable position. "It's not fair" doesn't cut it as an argument. You want us to go back and rejudge everything? That's not fair.

In Hoboka's defense, it's understandable to be a little miffed about lower qualtiy remixes from the past being on the site while arguably better stuff gets rejected today. Hell, going back to my first ever submission...I got more yes's on what I consider my worst effort than my most recent submission some 4 years later!

But removing everything from the past isn't really fair either. Allowing that would mean any and everything that gets accepted could be taken down in the future simply because other musicians have improved. If that first submission of mine actually got accepted, I'd be a little embarrassed to hear it on the site today, to be honest. The bar is a good thing.

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Answers to Questions:

1. I do know about OCR's resources and guidelines, but I'm a firm believer that all tricks to making and editing music are subjective, and interchangeable with many others of it's kind, the same way that you can get identical effects from many tools in Photoshop if you use them correctly. As such, I'd rather experiment and see what emerges, rather than duplicate what's in guides, faq's, and other things, even if they do work for many other people.

2. I appreciate all feedback, really, but I know my weakest point is production. I'm confident in my arrangements, and on rare occasions I feel as though I've arranged a certain section of a piece better than the original, when put in context. Mixing on the other hand is something I've never done before I started posting here, and I'm still terrible with it. Encouragement and general opinions are nice, but criticism and suggestions are what counts, ultimately.

3. The games, specific original pieces, and genres actually inspire me to respond more frequently than anything else. I was taught classical guitar, which bled into metal, punk, and most other rock variants, based on whatever I listen to normally. This makes it easier for me to give feedback on said genres, as opposed to house, trance, or anything else I'd hear at a club. I can't critique something I couldn't picture myself wanting to play.

4. An option would be to set up a rotation of WIPs, like a fresh one each hour that needs to be responded to, linked to a main page where it'll be noticed. This might make it easier for people to see what needs to get looked at, as opposed to what everyone's looking at but is acutally pretty well off on it's own.

That's my piece.

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