VG Frequency: U Love VGM

[Hemophiliac]

is this gonna be a one time dealie? or can we expect more vgf podcast in the future?

[Liontamer]

is this gonna be a one time dealie? or can we expect more vgf podcast in the future?

I would say once a week, but don't know how much time I'd have for that with my other responsibilities (job/judging). I definitely have a lot less time than I did in college, but I may work around this through shorter, but more frequent shows. For now, it's all a work in progress.

[Penfold]

I would say once a week, but don't know how much time I'd have for that with my other responsibilities (job/judging). I definitely have a lot less time than I did in college, but I may work around this through shorter, but more frequent shows. For now, it's all a work in progress.

So are you aiming this first one to coincide with the FF7 Project release (or around that timeframe)? I'm pretty excited to hear it, so I'm mainly just curious when I might expect it.

[Arek the Absolute]

It is pretty cool to have him come back in time to highlight the project. I loved how he had nights dedicated to project releases before, so this will be cool to have back.

[Hemophiliac]

i'm actually curious as to how you will be doing the show too: did you get a microphone? etc?

[anosou]

Just posted some thoughts about beginning remixers and OCR going for the better.

Needs some editing probably, Larry if you please?

[CHz]

I was hoping to have another Composer Spotlight up tonight, but unfortunately things (Twilight Princess, packing, and working on some code) conspired against me. It probably won't see the light of day until Monday.

I guess you leeches will just have to be content with free music from BioShock until then.

[OceansAndrew]

It seems like comments were turned off, so i'll have my comment on Another Soundscape's post sit in here.

I agree with you, and remixers shouldn't get discouraged at harsh judging, because it will only make them better if they listen to it, but I will respectfully disagree about the value of the WIP board.

Most of the people who wander in there are looking for music previews, and those who are willing to give critique are not capable of listening and evaluating at anywhere near the level of the judges. The few comments most leave are "i like X part. It sounds good. Maybe add a drum fill." Helpful for some, but not the detailed and knowledgeable critique needed to pass the judging panel.

I think this is why the judge hate issue exists, as the expectations between the WIP board and the judging panel are so vastly different, that when their mix finally does hit the judging panel, it's the first legitimate and thoughtful critique the mix has ever received, and some people are surprised by it.

What people need to realize is that in it's current state, the judging is pretty much the WIP critique, and either you have a good track that will get accepted onto OCR, or you get insightful critique that your mix needs. Aspiring mixers just need to view it as the win-win situation that it is.

As for bringing the level of critique in the WIP forms to be more standardized with the level of critique that the judges have? I'm not really sure. Maybe get an experienced mixer who can hear stuff like that and who also has the time to be a moderator who helps in the forum. Who that could be, I have no idea, and it's not my place to decide, but I think it would bridge the gap between mixes that are submitted to judges and mixes that are actually posted.

[anosou]

Hey OA, thanks for commenting

I think you have a point but I, as you so respectfully did, disagree.

The wip boards might not be the all around best place for feedback but I know some people are quite good listeners and can give good constructive criticism. I am spending a lot of time in #ocrwip on irc.enterthegame.com and we have a friendly climate but we're honest with the wip critique. I can agree some are more qualified to give critique than others but I feel, at least in my experience, most people that comes in to #ocrwip leaves with a good deal of helpful constructive criticism in their backpack.

I do, however, agree that the judgespanel has become the wip board. Sad for people who, after weeks or months of struggle, feel they have a perfect mix and want it posted. The people who knows their mix isn't going to be passed but they "submitted it anyway", needs to be teached a lesson. They ruin for everyone sadly, even though they help themselves.. a bit.

Anyway, now I'm blabbering too much Thank you for your comment , hope to see more of those. This is a subject that needs to be talked about.

[zircon]

Hey, the new wordpress blog looks cool, but it also doesn't show who wrote the posts!!! Very confusing.

[CHz]

That layout is a WordPress default setting, so the "new site design pending from djpretzel" is likely still in the works. It'd definitely be nice if that new design does say who wrote each post, though.

Also, I haven't received new login information yet.

[djpretzel]

working on it; need a patch of time I can dedicate.

looks like the following wordpress plugins will be useful:

• http://www.dagondesign.com/articles/add-signature-plugin-for-wordpress/
  
• http://www.dagondesign.com/articles/posts-by-author-plugin-for-wordpress/

[Kanthos]

Hey OA, thanks for commenting

I think you have a point but I, as you so respectfully did, disagree.

The wip boards might not be the all around best place for feedback but I know some people are quite good listeners and can give good constructive criticism. I am spending a lot of time in #ocrwip on irc.enterthegame.com and we have a friendly climate but we're honest with the wip critique. I can agree some are more qualified to give critique than others but I feel, at least in my experience, most people that comes in to #ocrwip leaves with a good deal of helpful constructive criticism in their backpack.

I do, however, agree that the judgespanel has become the wip board. Sad for people who, after weeks or months of struggle, feel they have a perfect mix and want it posted. The people who knows their mix isn't going to be passed but they "submitted it anyway", needs to be teached a lesson. They ruin for everyone sadly, even though they help themselves.. a bit.

Anyway, now I'm blabbering too much Thank you for your comment , hope to see more of those. This is a subject that needs to be talked about.

I agree with OA. Sure, there are a lot of good people who comment on WIPs, and a few really great people who comment occasionally, but the problem is one of selective listening.

I've seen several WIPs that were MIDI rips (sure, they were done from scratch, but for all the originality, they might as well have started with the MIDI file), and in a couple cases, I've commented to the poster that their mix was too close to the original, citing the submission standards. I've then had people come along and say, "No, I don't think it is, awesome mix, man", or something like that. *ESPECIALLY* since I'm not a judge, or even someone with an accepted remix, the person who posted the WIP is much more likely to listen to the person who compliments their music and thinks it's fine than the person who says, "Not bad, but not OCR-worthy". Basically, all it takes is a few n00bs who don't have a hope of getting mixes accepted at their current level to come in and start complimenting those who are perhaps slightly better but no more acceptance-worthy, and the WIP forums quickly become a celebration of crap.

I've also noticed that many people who give the best feedback only post occasionally, particularly if a song interests them. Which is understandable; there's a fair bit of activity in the WIP forums each day, and reviewing it all and leaving good feedback takes a lot of time.

#ocrwip, on the other hand, generally has a higher calibre of people in it. Perhaps we're not all acceptance-worthy, but there's generally a small number of people there who generally tend to give much better feedback than the casual person in the WIP forums.

[anosou]

Nice to see this subject engages people in conversation

Kanthos: The crap-praising attitude has got to go. But I think it will only go away when the wip boards get infested with good, constructive feedback from OCRemixers or Judges. Then remixers will really take the hint of a skilled and already acknowledged remixer saying they should work on this and that.

That would at least bring some tension off the judges panel that gets overflown with half-assed submissions that takes up valuable space. No wonder standards are getting higher and higher.

Too bad it's a tough job reviewing wips

[OceansAndrew]

Nice to see this subject engages people in conversation

Kanthos: The crap-praising attitude has got to go. But I think it will only go away when the wip boards get infested with good, constructive feedback from OCRemixers or Judges. Then remixers will really take the hint of a skilled and already acknowledged remixer saying they should work on this and that.

That would at least bring some tension off the judges panel that gets overflown with half-assed submissions that takes up valuable space. No wonder standards are getting higher and higher.

Too bad it's a tough job reviewing wips

I agree that praising crap isn't the way to do things, but it's a fine that needs to be walked in order to keep an environment that is welcoming to newcomers, but to have the tools available to people who are actively trying to improve, the most important being worthwhile critique.

I wish I could get IRC working on either my home or work computer, but I havnt had much luck. Work is pretty firewalled (at least last i checked), and I have yet to find any good ICR software for Macs. I am glad there is a good critique community going, i'm just sad I can't be a part of it ;_;

I don't think sticking a judge in the WIP forum is the right solution, not only are they busy enough judging submissions, but the potential drama that could be had is huge. Say one judge was to say a mix sounded pretty good, and the mixer submits. Say then that three different judges gave that same mix the triple NO. Drama fiasco, IMO. I think that the WIP board needs to be cultivated by people who don't have the ability to say whether or not a mix gets on the site.

I suppose the best thing for me to do to help is get in there in the WIP board and start doing what I can, though I think that the more experienced mixers giving frequent critiques in there would be better.

The goal is to have a filter that doesn't prevent mixes from getting to the judges, but makes the mixes that do arrive that much better. The WIP forum should be like the OCR Carwash. Mixes go in one end, get cleaned up, and then come out to get sent to the judges. It won't stop the people who submit what they know is a sub-par mix from "sending it in anyways", but it would help prevent mixers from showing up in dirty cars.

[anosou]

I use mac. I'm on irc

Go download Colloquy ( http://colloquy.info/ )

Good point about why judges shouldn't be in the wip forums. But I still think they give the best critique if they would have the time. Zircon is for example the guy who gives me the best constructive criticism (mad props) when I actually talk to him

Then we agree about the wip boards and channels being the filter. But as I said, too bad it's a tough job reviewing wips.

I do, however, promise that I will comment on some wips on the board when I have time. Until then everyone in need of feedback should get mIrc (PC) or Colloquy (Mac OS X) and hop in to #ocrwip at irc.enterthegame.com

Hope to see you there OA

[DarkeSword]

This is what I called the "Cycle of Mediocrity," years ago when VGMix2 launched. There was a lot of that "crap-praising" going on, just for the sake of making people feel good about their work, even if it wasn't great; those people got a bit of an ego boost and would praise other folks' so-so work. It just continued like that.

It's difficult to combat in an official capacity without adding yet-another-layer of bureaucracy to the whole process. I've had vague ideas about pre-approval/sponsorship before submission, but it only serves to make things even slower.

[anosou]

This is what I called the "Cycle of Mediocrity," years ago when VGMix2 launched. There was a lot of that "crap-praising" going on, just for the sake of making people feel good about their work, even if it wasn't great; those people got a bit of an ego boost and would praise other folks' so-so work. It just continued like that.

It's difficult to combat in an official capacity without adding yet-another-layer of bureaucracy to the whole process. I've had vague ideas about pre-approval/sponsorship before submission, but it only serves to make things even slower.

It's a hard world we live in. Nice to see you add to the discussion btw DarkeSword. Especially Judges must know about all the wips (that ARE in fact still wips) being submitted for evaluation instead of actual posting.

I hope VGMix will be back soon for that matter, that would probably take some pressure off the panel.

[avaris]

Great blog AS. I def agree with a lot of the points made about the WIP Boards from everyone. There are def a few people on the WIP boards who give awesome detailed feedback. #ocrwip is an awesome place...I need to get my ass back there.

I think one of people's biggest problems is giving constructive criticism without fear of sounding like a complete jack ass. A lot of people are prob afraid if they say something too harsh it will create too much drama and the artist will get really pissed.

The ability to say something bad in a good way is paramount to giving good feedback IMO, especially when it comes to newer artists.

Blanket statements similar to "Your strings sound awful" really does not help anyone and usually just pisses off the mixer. Saying, "The strings sound too Lo-Fi for the style you are going for. Try adding some small amounts of reverb with low decay and stereo seperation to help them sit in the mix better." is def better. That sounds much more helpful and does not attack the mixer personally.

Honestly after being here for around a year recieving good honest feedback on a song is one my favorite things in the entire world. In general an artist should concentrate more on getting 'better' instead of getting 'praise.' You'll end up a lot better at the end of the day.

EDIT: IMO the best way to improve the situation is for people to learn how to give good critiques. You don't have to be an awesome mixer to give good feedback. The ability to communicate what you do not like about in a coherent manner is prob the best asset a good reviewer can have. The best way to end the cycle of mediocrity is for people in general to be more honest and review more wips.

[anosou]

hey avaris, glad to see you dropped in This is gettin' crowded.

I absolutely agree with msot of your points. I especially feel the "don't wanna be an asshole" part. OCR is very much drama, especially in the forums. As a remixer many aims to be as popular as posisble so they get recognition that way. It's sad that this behaviour leads to overall too optimistic wip reviews and praise.

Although, let me point out I too likes to make friends and get attention (you know what I mean English is hard) because I'm nice but I would never let that make me lie about WiPs That's just bull.

I also think everyone should get on #ocrwip. It doesn't matter if someone gives a general praise, there is ALWAYS someone to give honest constructive criticism.

[The wingless]

I had an article written about me without my knowledge or consent!!!

My cock is enraged!

[Fishy]

AS speaks the truth, over-kind reviews are damaging, but at the same time, just ripping stuff to shreds without advice is just as bad. They both just lead to that rejected feeling that makes people stop altogether.

I don't think its the judges responsability to give advice, because its a thankless job due to the lovely judgehait they endure. If anything a bit of technical advice in a vote should be viewed as a bonus. I guess it would be cool if they swung by the WIPs forum every now and again, but you can't really expect that. I know zirc is very helpful in #ocrwip and theres always a bunch of us there. More people need to come to that channel, it could turn into a real goldmine.

My cock is enraged!

He's just flattered really.

[JJT]

i've gone through phases where i've tried to hang around the WIP boards, but generally it's too daunting.

my most constructive WIP sessions were definitely before i took on the judging mantle.

[Azul v2]

I had an article written about me without my knowledge or consent!!!

My cock is enraged!

You better improve the UI of SWB3 or else I'm going after you like I did in Guild Wars.

[Liontamer]

Another Soundscape/CHz/Dhsu/DragonAvenger/Fishy: I've already added you into the system, so there's no need to register. To get your new password, go to http://www.vgfrequency.com/wp-login.php?action=lostpassword and request a new one. I used the email address in your OCR forum profiles as your email addresses for the new blog site. Please let me know when you have successfully gotten access.

Anyone else that can write WELL about video game music and the arrangement scene, let me know of your interest, and if you're bueno I can get you set up. You have to be ok with representing OC ReMix via your work. If you don't like the site... :'-(