Heroes of Newerth

[Dhsu]

^ that's actually very helpful. I know it seems like it should be intuitive... but I didn't quite have everything in that perspective. I noticed that mid/late game I was barely farming at all, and I thought this just might be a late game mechanic. I thought the game had switched to team battles. But now that you mention it, at that point we had lost 2 towers, and they were probably still farming those lanes all the while. I can appreciate the significance of making a push a little more now.

Also, voted for zircons proposal. Despite having no right to vote on anything.

There's definitely a shift to team battles mid and late game, but in between is a good time to farm, as long as it's relatively close to safety, i.e. a tower, your base, or the rest of your team. Preferably 2 out of those 3.

That game in particular was a little lean on farm for us support heroes though, since the other 3 were carries. If all the lanes are pushed to the enemy towers and everyone else is busy jungling, there's not a whole lot to do that I can think of. Maybe get/place some wards and stack red creeps?

Edit: Also, if you need a lane switch, let someone know before you do it.

http://forums.heroesofnewerth.com/showthread.php?t=36434&page=2

My Accursed suggestion is one vote away from being Popular. Someone vote on it!

Voted. I like the Flame Shield (moar like LAME SHIELD ohhhh) buff idea too.

[Tensei]

Finding something to do when you're a support hero in so-called 'down-time' between bigger pushes/teambattles can be tough, but there's usually enough options:

- Farm a lane that your carry hero isn't in, with auto-attacks and hard denies to prevent it from getting pushed too far.

- Farm neutrals if your carry is farming a lane that's a good distance away from the jungle.

- Go ward the runes, your own jungle or the enemy jungle.

- Team up with 2-3 other support heroes from your team and gank the enemy jungle. Obviously don't do this if ALL enemies are missing, always try to ensure that your heroes outnumber the enemy heroes.

- Team up with 2-3 other support heroes and fastpush a tower that's relatively low on health. How viable this is depends on how organized the enemy team is, don't try this if you know they're going to mass teleport in.

- Stack ancients for your carry.

[Hemophiliac]

I got a chance to use forsaken archer.

thoughts:

-she builds very much like valkyrie might, in terms of items.

-her snare is great for ganks

-split shot should never be touched, go stats instead.

-skeletons are amazing early (especially if you're good at last hitting)

-her ult is ok early, but the problem is trying to hit more then one person with arrows is difficult.

tensei and i both had thought originally that she could be a potential jungler...the answer to this is yes and no.

if you get something like helm of black legion or the agi shield you can...but just with the skeletons you cannot. creeps don't attack the skeletons they always go straight for you. also the skeletons aren't controlled, they're automatically controlled and will attack whatever the closest target is (they also manaburn )

[Battousai]

Someone on the forum mentioned that if you get close enough to the creeps with skeletons in tow, they'll attack the creeps without them aggroing you. Hilarity ensues.

[Ajax]

New favorite heroes: Pandamonium and Maliken.

Both are excellent str heroes with with powerful abilities and excellent movement options. Also Maliken is as close to Dota's Dragon Knight (my favorite) as you can get.

Panda is just ridiculously op. If they completely took away his ult, I would still play him. Additionally, all you need to do is ward the forest in order to get easy 1v1 hero kills.

I also have much rage for Forsaken archer. I had a LAN party with some of my family this week, and on multiple occasions, FA was capable of single-handedly turning pubstomps into losses (it really bothers me when one good person with an OP hero in an otherwise poor team can turn the entire game around).

[zircon]

Panda isn't OP. With four active abilities, he's mana intensive. He's also slow, but requires more position control than almost any other hero to be effective with his abilities. He has no forms of magic damage, meaning Void Talisman or simply stacking armor is quite effective to negate his damage. It's also not terribly hard to avoid his stun, since you can see it coming MUCH more obviously than stuns like Pyro, Tort or Hammerstorm, and a poor stun can set yourself up to be killed.

He's a solid hero, but if Panda is OP than Madman is beyond broken.

Hemo, why would you not get Split Shot for FA? It basically increases her effective killing power by a factor of 3 (4 targets x 75% damage = 300% damage.) It's more effective than MQ's glaive, which is a solid ability. FA has no steroid skills otherwise, and steroid skills are what give good carries (Madman, Dark Lady) the ability to farm properly. Also your split attacks get attack modifiers such as Shieldbreaker which is godly.

[Tensei]

FA is a shitty hero.

- Weakass, hard to land AoE pseudo-disable. Pyro, Torturer, Hammerstorm, Engineer all have similar but superior AoE disables.

- 'Decent' steroid/scaling skill with Split Shot, but only relative to her other crap skills.

- Skeletons are basically useless, they'll just feed gold and push the lane unnecessarily if you get them early and they're not worth getting later due to terrible scaling. Mostly useless for jungling as well because they don't draw creep aggro so you can't tank. Would be awesome if you could actually micro them.

- Terrible ult. Let's take things into perspective. 4 Seconds of channeling for (narrow)AoE magic damage that's roughly equivalent to Wretched Hag's Ult. Thing is, Wretched Hag has the additional DoT afterwards, and she does the damage in ONE BURST. And remember Wretched Hag's ult was considered UNDERPOWERED for a long time. Magic Armor reduces the damage of each shot seperately, there are no additional effects like a slow or debuff, and you have to sit your squishy 800 HP ass perfectly still for 4 seconds.

I consider her mostly a joke. You can mess around in lower level games by pushing towers early with your skeletons if you're up against incompetent opponents, and use the early tower money to buy items that stack orbs on her Split Shot (Shieldbreaker, Frostwolf Skull, Nullfire Blade), but she's just so incredibly lackluster compared to other heroes.

[Dhsu]

I could see Assassin's Shroud being a good item on her. It'd help with both her disable and her ult.

Edit: Also, damage reduction being spread over several attacks has no effect on overall damage. (.75 x 165) + (.75 x 165) + (.75 x 165) + (.75 x 165) + (.75 x 165) + (.75 x 165) + (.75 x 165) + (.75 x 165) + (.75 x 165) is still equal to .75 x 1485. Which incidentally is more than twice the damage of Wretched Hag's boosted ult.

Edit 2: And what about jiggle physics?

Anyway, I tried Engi and had a ton of fun with him - great animation, lots of great skill combos you can pull off with this dude, and of course the obvious TF2 inspiration helps too (Scout sappin' mah sentreh!). Seriously though, a cheap, fast, non-channeling, low-cooldown ward that scales with items and gets their procs? Oh baby. Seems like an ideal mid (sentry camp rune spawn = lolz), although you can tell he was designed to be a jungler with HotBL right in his recommended items. Definitely gonna be playing more of this guy.

[zircon]

I think FA has potential to be a good hero, she just needs tweaks. Her ult is, as Dhsu pointed out, pretty strong, and I believe the range ie superior to Hag's. What would make it even better is if it got orbs from attacks (minus Lifesteal), and/or if they weakened it slightly, but made it more like Swiftblade's ult, where it sort of just happens without being channeling.

Engineer definitely seems cool. He has amazing ganker potential, as well as pushing and defense. His auto-attack is pretty bad aside from the awesome animation though, since he has no abilities to help him carry on his own. He NEEDS the turret to scale, and to maximize the turret he should be using Tinker. The turret itself though is balanced by the fact that *it* doesn't scale, which means a high-ASPD carry like Scout or Magebane can rip it up very quickly by themselves, or certainly if the whole team focus fires them.

However, even if nothing else is true, the energy field alone is amazing. It's a massive-AOE DOT that forces opponents to either take a ton of damage within it (and waste time trying to destroy it, which might be hard due to the chaos), or escape and be silenced/damaged further. Obviously it has huge synergy with any other AOE stunner like Tempest, Keeper, or even Pestilence/Panda.

[relyanCe]

Engineer bears quite a resemblance in play style to Heimerdinger, a hero form LoL, albeit with more DotA/HoN inspired utilities and such. If S2 puts out more heroes like him and FA, the metagame will get shaken up quite a bit.

[Dhsu]

However, even if nothing else is true, the energy field alone is amazing. It's a massive-AOE DOT that forces opponents to either take a ton of damage within it (and waste time trying to destroy it, which might be hard due to the chaos), or escape and be silenced/damaged further.

And this applies to the sentry as well.

Obviously it has huge synergy with any other AOE stunner like Tempest, Keeper, or even Pestilence/Panda.

Or himself. I see the teamfight combo as going Turret -> Ult -> Powder Keg -> Tinker Ult.

[Tensei]

Okay, I admit, I didn't do the full research. In ideal circumstances, FA's ult will hit for more than both Wretched Hag's and Magmus' ult. However, this requires the enemy to stand perfectly still and not disable you over the course of 4 seconds, which just isn't very likely to happenat all. Most likely you'll be able to hit 3-4 arrows after immobilizing the enemy hero. It's extremely easy to move out of the way even if you have no way of disabling her during her channel. And remember it only takes an MQ or TB nuke to stun her out of it.

It would be great if her ult had additional effects (if only something as trivial as a ministun with each arrow, or a slow) and if the near-useless skeletons got replaced with a decent escape mechanism (something like a built-in assassin's shroud would fit her well I think).

It's just not good design if it's more beneficial to take stats over 2 of her skills.

Engineer on the other hand is an awesome hero.

[relyanCe]

I personally think FA's ult would have great utility in team fight. I'd probably get blink on her so i could throw the stun and then place myself at max possible range, preferably on a cliff, and let fly with the ult.

Also, the skeletons are never targeted by creeps or towers, which makes it possibly the best push/creep skill in the game currently. Her real strength lies in her ridiculous ability to farm.

[DarkeSword]

I've created a Heroes of Newearth social group here on OCR.

http://ocremix.org/forums/group.php?groupid=5

It features a discussion board which may aid keeping different topics of discussion more organized.

As I don't play HoN, I've put in a transfer request to make zircon the owner of the group (only moderators can own social groups right now).

[Tensei]

She can push well enough with Split Shot, which you should be leveling at the point where pushing actually starts being important. Skeletons over stats is almost always a terrible idea.

Her ult is crap, no way around it. Getting multiple kills with it in a teamfight is contingent upon the rest of your team being able to CC 3-4 heroes of the enemy and disable them for a good 4 seconds to get everything out of your ult.

But guess what: If you disable the majority of the enemy team for 4 seconds you will most likely win that teamfight either way, as any AoE nuke is a good follow-up to it.

That's why the whole "OMG SHE SYNERGIZES WELL WITH TEMPEST"-argument is retarded. Behemoth synergizes with Tempest as well and he has the advantage of not being a terrible hero.

Not to mention that exactly BECAUSE she can farm so well, she'll have DPS items before teamfights start happening frequently, and I can guarantee that Splitshotting a shieldbreaker orb on the entire enemy team is more effective than using the shitty shitty ult.

[BardicKnowledge]

WHAT

Two new heroes? What the hell am I doing at my inlaws?

[zircon]

That's why the whole "OMG SHE SYNERGIZES WELL WITH TEMPEST"-argument is retarded. Behemoth synergizes with Tempest as well and he has the advantage of not being a terrible hero.

Well, again, the difference is that Behe has his hugely mana-intensive ults that are somewhat situational, and has limited farming or carrying ability otherwise. FA is a strong carry, very strong farmer, and a generally non-mana reliant hero. So the comparison isn't very good. In the game I played last night with Jade, Luke and Zealousy, a FA who got Frostwolf's skull and Geo Bane was an enormous threat. Even before she got those items, she could safely do massive damage to all of us from a LONG distance with her ult. If we were pushing, she could sit safely at her tower, forcing US to come to her, which is never what you want.

[eternal Zero]

I haven't played since I'm still at home home and not at my apartment but both of these heroes look very good and cool on paper. I will definitely be online tonight to play. Be on the lookout for me going nuts.

[LuketheXjesse]

Do I just pick bad times to get online or are people not online as much these days?

[Dhsu]

What does CC stand for? Crowd control?

[JadeAuto]

Do I just pick bad times to get online or are people not online as much these days?

I've been on quite a bit trying to learn.

Read: I don't feed anymore (most of the time), and i keep a 1:1 KDR 80% of the time

[relyanCe]

played FA in a real game

ult definitely wins teamfights for you until you farm endgame

skeletons definitely rape towers

ult definitely wins teamfights for you until you farm endgame

stopping a 5-man lane push by yourself while taking their whole team down to 25-50% is definitely awesome

[BardicKnowledge]

Do I just pick bad times to get online or are people not online as much these days?

Thanksgiving weekend Luke -- I just got home and won't play until tomorrow. I should be getting a GTX 260 very soon though, which means that you'll lose me to Dragon Age.

played FA in a real game

ult definitely wins teamfights for you until you farm endgame

skeletons definitely rape towers

stopping a 5-man lane push by yourself while taking their whole team down to 25-50% is definitely awesome

I heard that towers don't target skeletons -- is that true? Also, the crazy range on the ult seems to mean that you could stand 600 range behind a tower in complete safety, and still stop a 5-man push by yourself. Still am yet to play either new hero though...

[relyanCe]

yes, towers dont attack skeletons

[Tensei]

Stop a push how? For 4 seconds? When all the enemy team has to do is move slightly to the side to avoid it completely? That's just asking for a valkyrie arrow to the face if you ask me.