Nintendo Wii U

[Meteo Xavier]

Then I'll sell this hunk of shiny plastic that has no right to exist, no right because Nintendo should be a software company.

Then who should be the hardware company?

[Antonio Pizza]

The stigma of "Nintendo = soft" has been around since at least '91-'92 when Mortal Kombat was released for SNES and Genesis. It's 20 years later, the "stigma" is still here and so is Nintendo.

As for the shovelware taunt, I'm sure EVERY OTHER game for a non-Nintendo console over the past 30+ years (including the beloved Xbox and PlayStation franchises) has batted 1.000, right? Nintendo is the ONLY one to throw tripe on the shelves?

Bubsy 3D.

The defense rests, your Honor.

[Mirby]

Okay here's where I have a problem with your statement. You're saying Nintendo's 'decades of games' have been 'very casual'.

I think it's worth noting that there's a difference between 'casual' and 'core'**.

For instance, on the Wii, Donkey Kong Country Returns might be one of the games you consider 'casual' because it is colorful, stars a Nintendo character, contains no blood or guns, but I would say it's more of a 'core' game because it requires more skill to be proficient in and get every puzzle piece -- certainly to beat every time attack goal-- and, more importantly, a larger time investment to complete. Casual gamers might play it and get overwhelmed by the difficulty, or get distracted and buy a lighter game.

The Pokemon games, Paper Mario, Super Mario Galaxy, Pikmin, Super Mario World, Metroid Prime are other examples of games I think deserve the label 'core' and are enthusiastically played by veteran players for a longer time.

Something to be considered decidedly more appealing to the 'casual' player would be something like Wii Sports or Wii Fit, that may be very light in content and doesn't require a large time investment, I think.

The Wii's "empire" of 'shovelware' has less to do with Nintendo than it does the popularity of such games as 'Big Bob's Carnival Games' and their ilk with the droves of casual players who magically bought into the system. I don't see the connection between that and Nintendo's library of 1st party games.

If I'm wrong, please list me games Nintendo has made for 'decades' that you think are 'casual,' if they differ from my definition.

On your other point, I definitely think the Nintendo 'stigma', which has existed before the Wii but definitely got worse with this past generation (whether that was due to the motion control push, the lower hardware specs, gamers who had grown up playing core Ninendo titles feeling they have 'grown out of' Nintendo's market, or a mix of all of these) is a tough nut to crack but not completely unbeatable. I definitely think bold gestures like securing Bayonetta 2's exclusivity catches the attention of the cooler-headed 'hardcore gamer', the one who wants to play 'hardcore' games but doesn't worry so much about that 'Nintendo' label on the hardware due to some incurable and irrational hatred of the brand. I think it's certainly possible that Nintendo can earn more of these people as customers if they can continue ensuring that such titles as Grand Theft Auto V, Bioshock Infinite (and yes even older multiplatform games like Skyrim) hit the system, even if the Wii U is only their secondary system. That seemed to work well for Nintendo with Wii, where 'cool-headed hardcore' gamers probably only bought into it for the premium 1st party Nintendo 'core' games. Time will tell.

**This is a term Nintendo have used to describe games geared toward veteran players. I tend to differentiate 'hardcore' and 'core', with 'hardcore' being a (possibly mistakenly attributed) term mostly used to define games such as GTA IV, Call of Duty Modern Warfare/Black Ops, Bayonetta, Resident Evil 4/5/6, which fall under the broader 'core' category; these games usually receive 'Mature' ratings. These games have tended to be missing from Nintendo systems of late, but HAVE HAD appearances on Nintendo hardware (and will have, in the case of the exclusive Bayonetta 2). Examples of 'hardcore' games on Nintendo platforms include Mad World, manhunt 2, Resident Evil 4, Conker's Bad Fur Day, et cetera.

On the "Nintendo should stop making hardware and sell their software on my system of choice (iOS/PC/Xbox360/PS3)." mentality: This is ridiculously juvenile thinking, especially coming off of one of their most successful platforms yet, whether it catered to your tastes or not). Nintendo would completely devalue it's hardware if they put their games on competing systems. As much money as there is to be made selling Pokemon on iOS at 99 cents a pop, the series is a humongous part of why people bought the 3DS to begin with, and they can sell millions of copies of the two versions of the next main series game for $39.99 a pop on there. They can sell you a $170 machine and a $40 dollar game, versus just 99 cents. Yeah. Great idea.

There's also the fact that the "hardcore" gamer and "casual" gamer things are just fictional labels people use to try to make themselves better than other people when we're all gamers. We all play games, regardless of differing content and genre and style. To try to label something as a "hardcore" console or a "casual" one is doomed to fail from the start simply because those labels are inapplicable. Any console can provide any experience that may fall under those categories. The PlayStation 3 may have a lot of supposedly "hardcore" games but by the same token, there's a lot that could be called "casual." In the same way, the Wii has a lot of "casual" games at first glance, if you're keen on using those terms, but closer inspection reveals some more "hardcore" titles as well.

It comes down to a matter of personal definition, which surely varies from person to person. And for that reason it fails. The Wii U may be labeled a "casual" console, but even with the launch lineup that's already untrue. Any attempt to state otherwise is inherently false, for the evidence proving it as such is there for the taking. One only needs to look and see; otherwise you're just proving your own ignorance and dooming your argument.

[Bleck]

Yeah, it's cool that Nintendo is trying to pander to the hardcore audience, but I think it will take more than a few "M-Rated" games and exclusive Bayonetta 2 to get hardcore gamers to actually get interested in the Wii U.

"IT'LL TAKE MORE THAN HARDCORE GAMES TO GET HARDCORE GAMERS INTERESTED" ~The Internet

[Mirby]

"IT'LL TAKE MORE THAN HARDCORE GAMES TO GET HARDCORE GAMERS INTERESTED" ~The Internet

such incredibly flawless logic, there's no way i could ever argue with that

i'm done

[EC2151]

Well I do feel there was a lack of variety in the catalog of Wii games, which I hope is and will be addressed with the Wii U.

The problem is that the control interface limited the variety of games, strangely enough, for the Wii.

I hope the Pro Controller will solve that dilemma by offering a larger, more robust catalog of "traditional" games.

[ocre]

Well I do feel there was a lack of variety in the catalog of Wii games, which I hope is and will be addressed with the Wii U.

The problem is that the control interface limited the variety of games, strangely enough, for the Wii.

I hope the Pro Controller will solve that dilemma by offering a larger, more robust catalog of "traditional" games.

I've actually been wondering what role the Pro Controller actually serves besides coddling the psyches of people who can't get past the GamePad's screen; the GamePad otherwise largely being a completely traditional controller. Having said that, I'm certainly glad it is being offered as an option.

@Crowbar_Man: Ah yes, of course. As a primarily single player guy, I didn't consider that.

Edited September 16, 2012 by ocre

[Crowbar Man]

Mirby:

That is one way of doing it, if your system isn't powerful enough to have any sort of sandboxed hypervisor, which the PS2/Wii/GBA/etc didn't. The Wii U should, as they've even reserved an entire gig of memory for the system OS. Also see PS3 and having virtual memory cards for PS2

I've actually been wondering what role the Pro Controller actually serves besides coddling the psyches of people who can't get past the screen(apparently seen by the "hardcore" as the 'this generations' casual gimmick' a la the Wii Remote) in the GamePad; the GamePad otherwise being a completely traditional controller

Well, for local multiplayer you could use the Pro controllers

I never got far in the original Earthbound because it simply wasn't a very well made game.

Why would you say such a hurtful thing Brandon?

Also as mentioned by others, Nintendo rarely has ever made "casual" games, especially before the Wii. Not having blood and guts doesn't make a game casual.

Edited September 16, 2012 by Crowbar Man

[Doulifée]

Mirby:

Also as mentioned by others, Nintendo rarely has ever made "casual" games, especially before the Wii. Not having blood and guts doesn't make a game casual.

http://tvtropes.org/pmwiki/pmwiki.php/Main/NintendoHard

never forget, when beating those game was a feat of itself.

[Mirby]

Also as mentioned by others, Nintendo rarely has ever made "casual" games, especially before the Wii. Not having blood and guts doesn't make a game casual.

Oh I know, I'm just pointing out that people slap that CASUAL label on when it's not even true.

[Malaki-LEGEND.sys]

The whole "hardcore" game thing takes me back to the WCW craze back when I was around 12-years-old. If somebody brought up Todd McFarlane, that'd be amazing.

[Mirby]

The whole "hardcore" game thing takes me back to the WCW craze back when I was around 12-years-old.

only 12-year-olds take it seriously too XD

[XZero]

I'm not sure what I want to do regarding the Wii U quite yet. On the one hand, I'm a huge Nintendo fan. I've purchased every one of their consoles day 1 since the N64, and there's always some value to be had. But lately, I find myself more of a Playstation gamer, so I'm undecided.

Back in 2010, I only owned a Wii. 2010 was probably the best year for the Wii... Mario Galaxy 2, Metroid Other M, Donkey Kong Country Returns, and I can't remember what else all came out that year, so in terms of first party and exclusive games, 2010 was easily among if not the best year of the console's 6-year lifespan. However, a lot of the games I wanted to play were coming out for PS3 and 360. So I decided it was time to get a new console. But which one?

I made the decision based on a few factors. The exclusives for the PS3 were far more appealing to me. Uncharted, Ratchet & Clank, Little Big Planet, and the PS3-exclusive list of JRPGs from NIS America easily, easily trump any interest I have in Halo and Gears of War. I also don't generally have much interest in Call of Duty aside from a run through the campaign and the co-op stuff, so early DLC on the 360 wasn't a selling point for me. But by far the biggest factor in my decision was that my friends are all PS3 owners, so if I want to play with them, I have to get a PS3. That's what I did, and 100-some games and thousands of hours later, I've got to say I made the right call. Part of the fun is in the trophies; collecting them and comparing my list with the lists of my friends is neat and adds value.

So now I look at the Wii U. My love of first party Nintendo software immediately kicks in, though I have to confess that New Super Mario Bros. U isn't particularly appealing (I always felt the whole Mii thing is stupid, so the benefit of being able to play the game with them seems useless... I'd rather have Wario, Yoshi, Waluigi, Peach, etc. as playable characters, each of whom controls differently). Nintendoland looks interesting, though it boils down to a minigame collection. Perhaps a good minigame collection, but a minigame collection nonetheless. Pikmin isn't something I'm overly interested in, but I'd play it. The rest of the games are largely ports/updates of currently available PS3 and 360 games.

Next, which system is best for 3rd party games? I have my trophy list for the PS3 and since my friends aren't getting Wii U's, I have to get anything I intend to play in multiplayer on the PS3. I know the Wii U has "Accomplishments," which is great, but unless they function as something more than just a little ding indicating some achievement in a game (i.e. unless they give currency in the online store), I have no reason to prefer Accomplishments over Trophies.

I guess there is one other consideration that should be factored in. Nintendo's kind of been screwing me (and other gamers) lately. The GameCube comes out and while the first party games were generally good, the PS2's selection of quality games dwarfed the GameCube's, plus developers apparently didn't care much for the mini-disc format. Strike 1. The Wii comes out with a solid Zelda game, but it shoves motion controls down your throat, ends up being a haven for shovelware minigame collections, and despite industry pressure to upgrade, it doesn't support HD at any point during its lifetime. And did I mention that motion controls suck when they're mandatory? And there's a serious lack of support for the system later in its life cycle. And fans had to beg to get some of the better games (Last Story and Xenoblade) released stateside. Strike 2. The 3DS comes out, I buy it with a copy of Street Fighter IV 3D (and Pokemon Black), and there's precisely one good game (Zelda) to come out between then and the huge price drop. Admittedly, the DS was somewhat similar, coming out in November of 2004 and not having many good titles until November-December of 2005, but at least the DS was treated as a third tier and the GBA continued to get extensive support throughout 2005. Strike 3.

In the end of the day, I think I'll stick with PS3 for now and get a Wii U when Zelda HD comes out (potentially with a better bundle or at a lower price point). The Wii U is too much of a wildcard for now. I'll definitely be buying one somewhere along the line because I'm not finished playing first party Nintendo titles, but Nintendo has really lost me as a day-1 customer at this point.

[Malaki-LEGEND.sys]

To be perfectly honest, people should have stopped being 1st day adopters ever since Nintendo, Sony, and Sega launched their systems without pack in games circa the N64 generation. How can they not give you a piece of showcase software for their latest(and expensive) piece of hardware?

[Nabeel Ansari]

I love everything about this system and its games (so far so good!), but I'm the same as a few others:

Gonna wait a while to buy one. Maybe in college when the prices are cheaper, because this is just too expensive and I'm saving up money at the moment.

Edited September 16, 2012 by Neblix

[ocre]

@xzero I can very much relate to the "Sony attracted me while Wii soured me" thing. Early in this past generation, I found myself underwhelmed with Nintendo's motion control and seemingly super casual approach with Wii, so I got a PlayStation 3. I agree that Sony's first party offerings definitely put it in a more attractive place than Microsoft's system, and they get the same great third party multiplatform games anyway. I have a feeling people don't choose to stick with Xbox because of Halo and GoW, they pretty much feel invested in their Xbox Live account and all their friends have one; they've pretty much been buoyed by these things and major third party games to the point where Microsoft can just kick back and do a Halo and Gears game and push their Kinect stuff onto everything.

Having said that, I was quickly reminded why I had interest in Nintendo with their behavior following the bucket of ice water they got thrown on them with the not-so-hot reception to 3DSes early paltry offerings. Between the price drop, getting better games out in both the eShop and at retail, and the Anbassador Program, Nintendo have pretty much completely invigorated the platform. If you compare this behavior to Sony's "There's no problem." handling of the PS Vita's situation(where a perceived lack of software and high proprietary media costs have drug it down to depths not even the 3DS saw in its lowest point; regardless of the gaming media's refusal to talk about it as enthusiastically as they did when 3DS was down), the difference should disapppoint the Sony fan in you. Sony makes mistakes and they certainly can make some shameless decisions- the Smash Bros clone is just low.

I see nothing wrong with getting a Wii U once the library of 1st party games looks more attractive to you; the Wii itself was very successful as peoples' 'secondary' system, though I think the Wii U will be in a better position if Nintedo continues aggressively courting third party support; it's fair to say "We'll see." and "I feel burned." considering their plan to nab such support hasn't gone as successfully as they would've liked in the past. Again, bold initiatives like their new 'you bring the ideas, we'll cover publishing costs' deal could be a major differentiator, particularly with Japanese dev houses.

Edited September 16, 2012 by ocre

[Malaki-LEGEND.sys]

I really don't know how they could keep hype up for the premium model if they did, but Nintendoland really should be a pack in with the basic.

By the by, does anyone have any sources for good info on that TVii thing and the other stuff they're doing?

[Penfold]

I really don't know how they could keep hype up for the premium model if they did, but Nintendoland really should be a pack in with the basic.

By the by, does anyone have any sources for good info on that TVii thing and the other stuff they're doing?

While I agree they should have included the game with the basic model, Nintendo is giving good incentive for anyone intending to buy NintendoLand to get the premium model.

It seems like TVii is just an aggregate of other services (tivo, hulu, etc). Here's their promo video: http://www.nintendo.com/wiiu/videos/#/nintendo-tvii

It looks like the pro controller doesn't teather to the tablet, which if so makes it way more convenient to use than Wii's standard controller was. Especially nice if Nintendo makes good on offering Gamecube games digitally.

[EC2151]

In my case, it was "Sega attracted me while the Wii soured me"

In the last two years, I've picked up a Saturn and a Dreamcast, and have been loving it. Haven't played the Wii in months!

[Malaki-LEGEND.sys]

So the internet is going on and on about how the Wii U is only "marginally" more powerful than either the PS3 or 360, and thus is a terrible idea.

To be honest, with the constantly increasing dev costs that will no doubt sky rocket when the next Xbox and the PS4 launch, "marginally" might just be all we need. Seriously, do we NEED more graphical or audio fidelity? Shit looks and sounds great as it is, and assuming engines like Unreal 4, Luminous Engine, and FOX engine can scale as well as their designers say, then why make a seriously huge push for absolutely nuts graphics in the first place? Most multi-platform games out right now have to be designed around the PS3's 256MB limit anyway. The Wii U has a nice 2GB of memory, 1 of which is entirely dedicated to game processes. Think of the shit devs can do with that added leg room.

[Crowbar Man]

People are also assuming that the PS4/720/whatever will be power houses beyond imagination. I do not think this will be the case, I think we'll be seeing cheaper to produce consoles from all the big guys this next cycle. Only time will tell though. If any of the next gen consoles can run current titles in 60fps @ 1080p (or even 720p, most games can't even hit that target) that would be enough IMO

More importantly, if devs were able to make fun and enjoyable game on the Wii with its ancient hardware and 88MB of RAM, they can make games just fine with slightly more modern hardware and 1GB of RAM.

Also, as with any Nintendo console, you really are buying it for Nintendo's stuff anyways (anything else is just extra). If they pulled off great visuals on the Wii's crap hardware, they can pull out way better stuff with this.

Edited September 16, 2012 by Crowbar Man

[Overflow]

Pretty much what Malaki and Crowbar said. Sure graphics can get better (the fox engine and unreal 4 kind of blew my mind) but do we really need graphics that good? It's really the art style that matters in the end. Metroid Prime 3 looks outstanding, thanks to its art design and intelligent use of resources. And while Mario Galaxy would look excellent in 1080P, more advanced shaders etc wouldn't do much to improve the art.

I'm really interested in seeing what Nintendo does with its stronger console with games like Zelda and Metroid.

[DarkeSword]

Disappointed that scalpers have eaten up all the pre-orders for the black one. :\

[Mirby]

Seriously, do we NEED more graphical or audio fidelity?

there is always a need for audio fidelity. where is that guy anyway?

[ocre]

Disappointed that scalpers have eaten up all the pre-orders for the black one. :\

You think it's scalpers that are the reason reserves are getting sold out? Not people who actually want to own one?

Out of genuine curiosity, are you disappointed because you wanted to reserve one or because you think its a jerk move to force people to buy these things at double their cost when nobody can find one in a store?