League of Legends: I finally updated the player list in the OP!

[k-wix]

Has everybody stopped playing this or something? I haven't had anything but solo queue for the last two days.

I play quite often though im usually with non-ocr friends, that being said - if you or anyone else see me just hanging online, feel free to drop me an invite.

[kitty]

I play mostly late night plus I'm on the West coast so most of the time I miss the OCR peeps unless it's the weekend.

[BardicKnowledge]

The past two days were Evo, so I was away from gaming otherwise.

[Dhsu]

Apparently my computer likes to die while playing LoL so I've been having to stick to HoN these days.

[Sir_NutS]

I still play constantly but I haven't received an invite for a game yet D:. I'm not that bad guys, I promise.

[prophetik music]

Has everybody stopped playing this or something? I haven't had anything but solo queue for the last two days.

i've been out of town for a few days. i'm itching to get back into it, though, so i'll likely be on within the next half-hour.

[Tensei]

Fortify/Teleport All AD All mid strategy is a failure.

[zircon]

You must not have been doing it right!!!

BTW, wasn't playing because I was away at Otakon. Will get back to it soon

[prophetik music]

we tried all AD and AD/AP, but got hosed by shooty girl and katarina's ult. the first time we tried it, we didn't have the masteries and didn't all have ranged, and we got annihilated. kat went 42-3-15 in about 25m. the second time, we didn't have masteries but had all ranged, and still got merc'd - but they beat us in towers

so, don't know what i'd do differently. i'd prefer to have cait and kog in there over some other champs that we played, like malz. some combo of sivir, kat, kog, ashe, cait, tristana, and shooty girl could probably do a lot more than the teams we ran with today. alternatively, include a character with lane-sustaining heals and CC like alistar, or a buff character like janna, sona, or soraka. soraka and alistar both do decent damage early, and their healing abilities will counter what hit us the hardest - not being in lane half the time because we took two hits and were almost dead - and will prevent being dead ten times before level six.

i still like the 1-4-0 strategy i suggested. have one character with a ridiculous AOE ult like kat or fiddles solo a lane, grab ridiculous exp early between fortify and general farming, and then go blow people up after hitting l6 early. since there'd be someone in the lane, likely the other team wouldn't collapse five mid right away, so you'd get a lot of 4v3s at low levels, where you can carve up a hero right away easily and be done with it. it'd also prevent blowing fortify five times in the first ten minutes, since they'd only have one free tower to push. i don't know if that'd make pushing towers harder or not, but i think that it'd help balance the EXP loss that you get with five in a lane. plus a l6 fiddles with magic pen boots and a rod or two - totally doable in a solo lane with a bit of tower gold - would easily deal 60-75% of most enemies HP in one crowstorm, not to mention the crazy stuff having an ability like fear with four ranged AD heroes right there represents.

Edited August 2, 2011 by prophetik music

[Tensei]

Let's talk summoner spells. I think Flash/Ignite or Flash/Exhaust covers about 90% of the champions (for AP and AD heroes respectively), minus junglers. CV is way overrated at pub level, especially if you're only going to use it for bush control (which can be done way cheaper, for 75 gold).

CV, and pure support champions in general are great at a higher level where you can use it to supplement wards to maintain awareness of the enemy jungler, while babysitting an AD carry in the bot lane. Soloing or Babysitting a tank with a pure support is a waste of a champion slot, just like how passing up Ignite for CV ironically makes you give up a lot of lane control because you're way less of a threat. I never see people buying enough wards to justify running CV in addition to it. Seriously, they're only 75 gold, and you'll almost always have more than that left if you're back to base to buy items.

The only champion where I take CV every time is Lux, not for it's map awareness utility, but for the synergy with every one of her skills.

Teleport is kinda iffy because in a lot of cases you can just be smart about blue pill timing so your tower doesn't get pushed while you're back to base. It has it's place in certain push strats though.

If you ever feel like you need Clarity you're probably not managing your mana well enough (i.e. don't use skills on creeps, unless they have some kind of mana/energy return component and they're specifically designed to aid lasthitting)

Heal/Revive/Fortify etc. should be obvious.

But yeah, I think Exhaust/Ignite are almost as important as Flash, because if you're in a 1v1 situation where the enemy has either of those, and you don't, you will most likely be killed.

Edited August 2, 2011 by Tensei

[BardicKnowledge]

Teleport should be reserved for characters that push/backdoor really well such as Sivir and Yi. It also significantly speeds up farming for AD carries, but isn't quite as useful since the carry probably wants Exhaust or Ghost instead (assuming everyone gets Flash).

I agree that babysitting the tank is a waste of time -- the support heroes work best when they allow someone like Ashe or Gangplank to farm at max efficiency. Support heroes are definitely not a waste in pub games though -- I solo queue as Sona or Janna a bunch and usually do quite well with them, healing / shielding the carry to victory.

Where would you place Ghost? It is better for both chasing and running than Exhaust but not as useful in a teamfight situation. I get it over Exhaust on both Kat and Irelia atm and am not disappointed by it. I can see any committed "assassin" character using it very well.

As far as Clarity goes, I know that Anivia makes really good use of it -- she gets mana starved without it early game, and in the midgame it lets her push/farm extremely quickly with her ult. Lategame of course it's still not very useful, but I don't think the phoenix can ever have enough mana regen. Dunno if there are any other side cases for it.

I think the reason we never see Heal/Rally/Fortify in a game is because Flash currently occupies one slot all the time, and those three are obviously not as good as one of Exhaust/Ignite/Teleport/Ghost. If we actually had two slots to work with then I could see one Fortify per team being viable, for instance.

One more sidecase to talk about: jungling. Obviously you want Smite...but I'm pretty sure I've seen a pro match where the Nunu jungler went Smite/Heal and did very well. Heal makes more sense to me in the jungle than anywhere else, as it allows you to stay in the jungle much longer the first trip and might speed up jungling significantly as a result.

[Tensei]

I don't think Ghost should really be compared to Exhaust but more to Flash. Usually you want Flash over Ghost on a champion, even if they already have an innate flash (Corki, Akali, Ezreal) though it's more up to preference at that point. Overall Ghost lasts longer and works better for chasing, but Flash lets you escape through walls.

Katarina doesn't really need Flash because she can Shunpo to just about everything (including wards) on a pretty short cooldown, so I go with Ghost/Exhaust or Ghost/Ignite. Champions like that definitely want Ignite for maximum damage output.

I don't see any reason to run Clarity over Ignite on Anivia because you'll have plenty of regen with mp regen/5 runes and an early tear/catalyst.

Edited August 2, 2011 by Tensei

[BardicKnowledge]

I don't have any runes yet, so maybe my Anivia opinion will change when I get to level 20...we'll see.

[prophetik music]

i've been reading a lot of 'pro' builds for the characters i play the most, and i'm finding that almost exclusively they recommend ghost over flash. the only time you want flash is on a character like fiddlesticks, where you can virtually dash through two walls between crowstorm and flash and surprise people where they had no idea where you'd be. the main reason for ghost is that the duration is just so long, and ignores collision so it can blow through creep waves without getting boxed in. you can just run away from anything, and even with a speed boost ability characters will just keep up with you and not catch you. for fiddles, ghost is nice because it allows you to catch up to players with crowstorm and be able to hit them with drain at close range. with a character like cho, it means that no one can get away from his ult, since collision with him is terrible the bigger he gets. and with urgot, it means that you can always be in position to continue attacking with his Q and never be out of range (since his shield slows enemies by 20% as well).

but yeah, i'd put ghost over flash any day. i also feel that exhaust is better than ignite since it scales so well late into the match. it's always a percentage thing rather than a set amount of true damage, and a lucky potion or heal spell (meditate comes to mind) can't counteract it like you can to ignite.

teleport is also important for characters that don't get much gold early in game and aren't going to get early kills, like rammus. he can miss as much as a full level of experience when he goes back to buy his heart of gold, and that level means so much in mid game since he spends a lot of time roaming and defending towers and not as much time actually in the lane unless there's a big teamfight. almost all videos i've seen of people playing rammus have him one or two levels down in mid-game because of that, and so teleport means that they can jump right back into the action rather than waltzing down the lane. it's one of the few spells i use all game rather than just in fights or just in early game. i've teleported him into teamfights before when the other team thought they caught my squishies with their pants down and gotten triple kills off of tremors, high AD from his passive, and the taunt and powerball abilities.

oh, and revive/teleport rammus? ridiculous. towerdive him early game with his powerball to get down there and die quick, and he can just sit there and eat damage for breakfast all early game. love it =D

[Sir_NutS]

So I gave HoN a try and honestly I didn't like it much. For some reason It's harder to see whats going on, and it's much less user friendly than LoL.

There's hoping for DotA 2, but if it's anything like hon then I think I'll pass.

[Tensei]

So I gave HoN a try and honestly I didn't like it much. For some reason It's harder to see whats going on, and it's much less user friendly than LoL.

There's hoping for DotA 2, but if it's anything like hon then I think I'll pass.

It takes some getting used to because there's a shitton of skills that can easily hit stuff two screens away, in addition to the camera being closer, the map being bigger, and the whole pace being a lot faster. It's still a lot of fun though and I wouldn't mind playing with some new people who want to give it a try.

Also, Prophet, I feel like Flash is way more of a staple summoner spell than Ghost. Ghost would be better if the map really just consisted of three lanes, but there are so many times where Flashing over a wall will save you where Ghost wouldn't have helped at all. Ghost is slightly more helpful when you're chasing or when you already have an innate blink, but on the vast majority of characters Flash is a better option. Especially initiators benefit from Flash way more because it allows you to instantly jump in if the enemy team clumps up and disable like 3 champions at once. If a team sees an Alistar running in they can spread out, focus him down or kite him before he even gets close, but with Flash he doesn't need to worry about that at all.

I also don't see the point in Teleport on Rammus of all champions because his powerball provides him with very good map mobility already. The solution to having a character that can't farm much is to buy up a few Gold per 10 sec items (Heart of Gold, Philosopher's stone), not teleporting to lanes that your carry should be farming. Most Rammus guides actually suggest Smite/Flash on him and play him as a Jungler.

Ignite actually counters healing by cutting it by 50% and the mastery grants you bonus AP when it's on cooldown. It's basically like an additional nuke earlygame, and it actually helps a ton in lategame against lifesteal/regen dependent champions too.

Edited August 2, 2011 by Tensei

[prophetik music]

i see what you're saying about flash, but i feel it still has very specific uses as a whole. for an initiator like malphite or alistar, that additional range really makes a big difference. and being able to go through walls is really nice too. however, all it really does - especially if you're slowed - is move you a few extra feet away, as opposed to counteracting whatever CC they're putting on you. i feel it's got very specific uses when it's awesome, and lots of places that you can use it where it's not that great at all. ghost is nice because it gives you sustained speed as opposed to just a quick warp to a different point. think about most of the times you've died out of a teamfight. either you're stunned/snared/knocked up/whatever, or you're running away and got caught. would a flash save you? when you're snared or whatever, yes, it can. when you're running away, sometimes. and when you're chasing a low-health character, sometimes. flash seems better for someone who just needs to get in range to use a single spell or something than it is for an autoattack champ like ashe or yi. the speed bonus is way better for one of them, allowing them to always have position on who they're attacking. the map-control aspect, allowing them to get around quickly to teamfights and ganks, is even better.

i haven't seen a rammus guide that uses him as a jungler, since he's got such low damage and slow AS early in the game. as i said, if you get hit hard early and don't have the 850 for a heart of gold, losing that EXP is a huge deal. it's not money that matters, it's getting behind in levels. teleport has basically saved games for me by preventing me from being underleveled in the mid-game phase. powerball is also tough to use later-game to get around because if you impact an enemy, you'll aggro them as well as knocking you out of your ball. considering how strong he is at pushing towers late-game, i've found that an effective strategy is to use teleport to get to a tower that's pushed, pop my ult and blow the tower away quickly, and then use powerball to get out fast. i usually seem to get at least one tower that way, and the pressure it puts on the other team offsets not being around for those few seconds. when the top three or four guides on mobafire and elsewhere say that teleport's one of the best spells for rammus to keep him available for fights while being all over the map, i think i'll trust them

as for ignite, i think both ignite and exhaust have very specific uses. ignite is much better early-game when stats aren't stacked enough for percentages to make much difference, and exhaust is much better late game where catching a runner is easier since towers have been pushed and the lanes are more empty.

Edited August 2, 2011 by prophetik music

[Tensei]

I just tried Rammus jungle as per this guide (Chaox plays for one of the top teams in the game, so I trust the top guides from solomid a lot more than from mobafire) and it feels really solid. He clears the jungle almost as fast as Amumu, and with a leash on blue he has enough HP after the clear to gank right away.

His auto-attack damage with a cloth armor is at like ~80 because of his passive, which is higher than a lot of other junglers, and Powerball/Defensive Curl clear camps really quickly after you get Blue.

[Bleck]

rally + revive all day every day

[relyanCe]

i remember when rally was useful

[prophetik music]

I just tried Rammus jungle as per this guide (Chaox plays for one of the top teams in the game, so I trust the top guides from solomid a lot more than from mobafire) and it feels really solid. He clears the jungle almost as fast as Amumu, and with a leash on blue he has enough HP after the clear to gank right away.

His auto-attack damage with a cloth armor is at like ~80 because of his passive, which is higher than a lot of other junglers, and Powerball/Defensive Curl clear camps really quickly after you get Blue.

a lot of those comments seem to say that it's basically impossible to pull it off because of changes to the jungle, but i'll give it a shot and see how it turns out.

[zircon]

If I had to rank the spells...

God tier (practically essential) - Flash

As discussed above, it's just incredibly versatile and synergizes so well with a huge variety of champion skills.

S tier (for your other slot) - Exhaust, Ignite

Exhaust isn't just good for chasing people or slowing gankers (though it IS the best skill for that.) It also significantly reduces the damage output of carries or strong nukers and reduces armor. As both an offensive and defensive skill, it's incredible. As for Ignite, True Damage is just brutal and it seals the deal in so many situations where someone would have gotten away with just a sliver of health.

A tier (good picks, though not the best) - Ghost, Clairvoyance

I agree with the assessment that Ghost is good for both escaping and chasing, though not quite as good as skills like Flash or Exhaust which are a little more versatile and powerful. But it's certainly not a bad skill. Clairvoyance is really good overall considering its incredibly short cooldown, but not needed on every champ, and to some extent made redundant by wards.

B tier (not bad, but not great, with better options all around) - Teleport, Heal, Fortify

At first I thought Teleport was a no-brainer spell, but I see now that having map awareness is even better, and as you get later in a game, it becomes less and less useful. Champs like Yi can certainly make good use of it, but its something of a gimmick. Same thing with Heal. It's not awful, but it's very defensive, not versatile. Fortify is the same way. It has its uses, but overall it just won't be used enough.

C tier (very situational) - Clarity, Revive, Cleanse

Clarity might be kinda useless later on, but remember that building a huge early game advantage can echo into the lategame. If someone has Clarity it may allow a particular lane to be completely dominant for the first chunk of the game, which in turn influences the rest of it. Revive is almost the opposite. It's really not useful early on but it could easily turn the tides of a game when you're 30-40 minutes in, eg. defending against a major push, getting back into a teamfight or finishing off an enemy lane.

While certainly not as good for chasing or escaping ganks as something like Flash or Ghost, Cleanse is on a VERY short cooldown and may have a place on heroes like Tryndamere that are the focus of considerable CC in a teamfight.

Trash tier (no reason to pick anything here) - Rally

[Tensei]

a lot of those comments seem to say that it's basically impossible to pull it off because of changes to the jungle, but i'll give it a shot and see how it turns out.

I use different rune setups than suggested, and I still manage to do it (albeit at pretty low health) without a leash, so if you do get a leash you end up with a lot more health, double buff, and you'll be ready to gank. You're right in the sense that it's probably impossible to do with the runes he suggests, but the route itself is very much doable.

I use a mix of attack speed/armor penetration reds, a health and an armor penetration quint, armor yellows and mana regen blues.

E: Just had some real games with the build, it's actually tons of fun. I went 10/3/10 the last game and had a shitton of succesful early ganks (especially on the pushed up solo lane at top). Because of Powerball's massive speed boost enemy heroes have a very hard time getting away once they've blown their flash.

Edited August 2, 2011 by Tensei

[Dhsu]

I figured Flash would be a must-have on pretty much anyone since I started playing, but Garian and the group he plays with seem to be of the opinion that it's primarily a skill noobs like to pick. I need to ask them to elaborate on that sometime.

[BardicKnowledge]

When does everyone suggest that you start buying elixirs? I've started using them before teamfights after my first major item (rabadon's) and boots are done as Annie, and I'm really seeing the difference.

At the very least, you should _never_ fill your 6th slot with an item unless you buy a big one all at once in a super late game. The utility of buying an elixir, drinking immediately, then buying two wards and heading out every base trip far outweighs anything that costs < 1500.