League of Legends: I finally updated the player list in the OP!

[Mirby]

* A Champion that is constantly followed by a small train or group of creatures. These would have some very basic uncontrollable attacks and low HP, but are immune to AOE. The champ's abilities would depend on sacrificing the creatures for various effects (throwing them, planting them on to objects, batting them at the enemy, etc.) New creatures would be regrown periodically or perhaps faster if you pick up old ones.

So you want Captain Olimar in LoL?

XD

[eternal Zero]

During her development one of LeBlanc's passives was to make her health and mana bar always read as full. I kinda wish that did happen cause it's really cool but considering what happened with first week LeBlanc without the overpowered passive I don't think it was necessary.

[kitty]

* A Champion that is constantly followed by a small train or group of creatures. These would have some very basic uncontrollable attacks and low HP, but are immune to AOE. The champ's abilities would depend on sacrificing the creatures for various effects (throwing them, planting them on to objects, batting them at the enemy, etc.) New creatures would be regrown periodically or perhaps faster if you pick up old ones.

A variation could be enchanting/controlling a non-neutral target creep. When you enchant them or w/e you'll buff them in the process. Would make laning rather interesting methinks.

[Tensei]

Hell, I think any type of minion controller type champion would be a breath of fresh air. And I'm talking TRUE control, like having activatable abilities on your minion(s), being able to exactly control their movement and attacks, not having a leash, unlimited lifespan, etc.

Yorick should have been this.

Edited September 16, 2011 by Tensei

[prophetik music]

A variation could be enchanting/controlling a non-neutral target creep. When you enchant them or w/e you'll buff them in the process. Would make laning rather interesting methinks.

ENCHANT BARON 25m surrender everygame

[Tensei]

I almost had a pentakill with Dunk Yi last night by the way. It's not that the build is much good (the DPS is not optimal with 4x Zeal), but people just don't seem to be able to handle a jungling Yi very well. I also took the enemy Riven to school, so I didn't get to see her supposed OPness.

E: I stumbled across a decent article on reddit, comparing the three current big Dotalikes. It's a pretty interesting read. http://wingflier.blogspot.com/2011/09/comparing-lol-hon-and-dota-and-what-it.html

Edited September 16, 2011 by Tensei

[k-wix]

I stumbled across a decent article on reddit, comparing the three current big Dotalikes. It's a pretty interesting read. http://wingflier.blogspot.com/2011/09/comparing-lol-hon-and-dota-and-what-it.html

That is an interesting read! I feel like he favors classic dota to an extent, but the article seems pretty accurate. Out of the big 3, I still have lol as my top pick. It's the most fun, and is *plenty* deep enough for me.

[Jamphibious]

I also took the enemy Riven to school, so I didn't get to see her supposed OPness.

Yeah, I've seen a few and they've been hit and miss. One really didn't seem to know how to use her Q properly, and her ability to close gaps isn't quite as intense as I thought it would be. Most of her dashes are a pretty small distance, and also can't go through walls for escapes.

However, I laned with my IRL friend who was Riven while I was Sona, and in 2 separate games we just destroyed the other lane. Riven can have a tough time with certain ranged champions, but with me as Sona complimenting her I can easily harass with my Q and heal Riven when she does have a chance to harass.

Really good lane composition, I highly recommend.

[Bleck]

that was a pretty good article, even if it really fucking annoys me when people use the word 'competitive' as an impersonal adjective in regards to video games

riven is a fun champ who is almost perfectly balanced

[relyanCe]

riven is great and people need to shut the fuck up

however, putting a crit chance on all her abilities would truly balance her and give her an actual focus.

maybe like, half normal crit chance to all damage abilities

[prophetik music]

Yeah, I've seen a few and they've been hit and miss. One really didn't seem to know how to use her Q properly, and her ability to close gaps isn't quite as intense as I thought it would be. Most of her dashes are a pretty small distance, and also can't go through walls for escapes.

However, I laned with my IRL friend who was Riven while I was Sona, and in 2 separate games we just destroyed the other lane. Riven can have a tough time with certain ranged champions, but with me as Sona complimenting her I can easily harass with my Q and heal Riven when she does have a chance to harass.

Really good lane composition, I highly recommend.

laned with a riven last night that build almost exclusively movespeed with quints, early boots, and janna's passive, and she was all over the lane all the time. it was awesome to watch her just swoop everywhere.

we zoned the snot out of caitlyn and yi. he even stopped using his alpha strike until they were under his tower because of how bad he'd get stomped every time he came out.

that said, i think she's reeeeaaaalllllly powerful early game, and is an excellent assassin late-game. i've seen some terrible players and some stellar players so far, but the terrible rivens are still better than most other terrible pubs

[zircon]

I almost had a pentakill with Dunk Yi last night by the way. It's not that the build is much good (the DPS is not optimal with 4x Zeal), but people just don't seem to be able to handle a jungling Yi very well. I also took the enemy Riven to school, so I didn't get to see her supposed OPness.

E: I stumbled across a decent article on reddit, comparing the three current big Dotalikes. It's a pretty interesting read. http://wingflier.blogspot.com/2011/09/comparing-lol-hon-and-dota-and-what-it.html

Haha, that article is pretty biased in favor of DotA. It's obviously coming from a DotA player and not someone who plays LoL seriously. For example, the author says LoL basically has no competitive scene, or rather that it hasn't been to many tournaments. However, just recently Riot announced that LoL's Season Two has the largest prize pool in e-sports history. Not to mention there have been quite a few tournaments and tournament qualifiers in the last few months alone:

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/news/tournaments

He also characterizes LoL as the least balanced which I think is simply false. I can't speak to DotA, but the champ scaling in LoL means that almost all champions are viable. Some are generally better than others (Brand > Veigar) but overall, the difference in tiers is pretty small. Compare this to garbage heroes in HoN which comprise at least 50% of the cast and are basically only played as a joke.

The other thing is his insistence on pay-for-power being very present in LoL and HoN. That's not really true. Having access to more heroes doesn't mean more power, assuming the heroes are at least somewhat balanced to begin with. If I only had Orianna, Ashe and Alistar and NOBODY else I could still play at a top-tier level. Some of LoL's best heroes are also extremely cheap and can be purchased within a week of playing the game. There is no issue of money "buying power" in LoL, and certainly not at a competitive level.

The only way this argument even remotely works is with runes, but you can't outright buy those. Yeah, you can buy IP boosts but how big of a difference is that really going to make? Unless you're building 10 rune pages, it doesn't take very long to build two solid, all-purpose pages of tier 3 runes (and about 1/5 as long to build tier 1 pages, which are at least 1/2 as good.) Not to mention the issue of rune disparity is really a problem for matchmaking, so you don't have 30s against 10s.

I mainly agree with his characterization of the ganking/gold/death systems and hero design. Riot's champ design is just not good in comparison and there is no defending it.

Edited September 16, 2011 by zircon

[Tensei]

Haha, that article is pretty biased in favor of DotA. It's obviously coming from a DotA player and not someone who plays LoL seriously. For example, the author says LoL basically has no competitive scene, or rather that it hasn't been to many tournaments. However, just recently Riot announced that LoL's Season Two has the largest prize pool in e-sports history. Not to mention there have been quite a few tournaments and tournament qualifiers in the last few months alone:

http://na.leagueoflegends.com/news/tournaments

He also characterizes LoL as the least balanced which I think is simply false. I can't speak to DotA, but the champ scaling in LoL means that almost all champions are viable. Some are generally better than others (Brand > Veigar) but overall, the difference in tiers is pretty small. Compare this to garbage heroes in HoN which comprise at least 50% of the cast and are basically only played as a joke.

The other thing is his insistence on pay-for-power being very present in LoL and HoN. That's not really true. Having access to more heroes doesn't mean more power, assuming the heroes are at least somewhat balanced to begin with. If I only had Orianna, Ashe and Alistar and NOBODY else I could still play at a top-tier level. Some of LoL's best heroes are also extremely cheap and can be purchased within a week of playing the game. There is no issue of money "buying power" in LoL, and certainly not at a competitive level.

The only way this argument even remotely works is with runes, but you can't outright buy those. Yeah, you can buy IP boosts but how big of a difference is that really going to make? Unless you're building 10 rune pages, it doesn't take very long to build two solid, all-purpose pages of tier 3 runes (and about 1/5 as long to build tier 1 pages, which are at least 1/2 as good.) Not to mention the issue of rune disparity is really a problem for matchmaking, so you don't have 30s against 10s.

I mainly agree with his characterization of the ganking/gold/death systems and hero design. Riot's champ design is just not good in comparison and there is no defending it.

The guy claims he's played thousands of games of each, and he pretty accurately points out LoLs advantages, I don't feel like the article is very biased at all. I do know for a fact that Chu voiced similar criticisms (LoL not being a good competitive game), and he soloqueued all the way to first place in Elo.

I also don't know where you get the idea that 50% of HoN heroes are only viable as a joke, but you gotta specify whether you're talking about balance on a competitive level or on a pub level.

LoL's imbalance at a competitive level stems from the fact that roles are very narrowly defined and there aren't many viable strategies at all, which leads to the question "Why would I ever pick Champion X over Champion Y when Champion X is just plain better at this particular role?". It's not that Veigar is plain bad, it's just that there's no reason to pick him as your AP carry over Annie/Orianna/Brand.

I feel like in HoN, the 'tier' of a particular hero is much more a matter of the competitive metagame and flavors of the month than whether a hero is actually underpowered. Remember how Andromeda and Wildsoul went from never picked to suddenly being top tier picks despite receiving no buffs whatsoever? I think a lot of HoN heroes are in this position and a lot of lower tier heroes still fulfill a unique niche (Warbeast, Dampeer, Flux) that just doesn't happen to fit in the current metagame. I'm curious to know which HoN heroes you consider garbage.

Now, if we're talking pub balance, none of this really matters. In LoL pubs, the skill difference can make up for the slight difference in power between, say, Ashe and Corki, so you're free to pick Veigar as your AP carry if you feel like it, and still do well. The thing is, though, he doesn't really bring anything unique to the table that would put him ahead of the 'better' AP carries in any situation.

In HoN pub level, I really can't think of any hero that I'd classify as a joke. All those melee carries that suck in competitive games? Yeah good luck getting your team coordinated enough to gank them consistently.

Edited September 16, 2011 by Tensei

[zircon]

Well, my own personal trash list, even though I enjoy some of these heroes:

* War Beast

* Night Hound

* Sand Wraith

* Madman

* Succubus

* Maliken

* Nymphora

* The Dark Lady

* Chronos

* Empath

* Swiftblade

* Moon Queen

* Blood Hunter

And then heroes that are decent, but way outshined by others (IMO):

* Magebane

* Engineer

* Scout

* Blacksmith

* Thunderbringer

* Martyr

* Parasite

* Armadon

* Legionnaire

* Jeraziah

* Electrician

* Forsaken Archer

etc.

[Tensei]

Nymphora, Jeraziah, Parasite and Electrician are contemporary competitive picks though (Nymphora especially, getting banned a lot), and a lot of the other ones you've listed have been rare competitive picks as well to support certain off the wall strats (Warbeast, Succubus).

The thing is, you can easily do well in a pub with any of those. In fact, any of the carries in that list can take over a game if you're good at farming. I wouldn't even call Scout a joke hero because you do actually need a coordinated team to stop him, and the same goes for a lot of the melee carries. I don't think it's any harder to play a hero like Martyr effectively than it is to play Veigar in LoL.

Edited September 16, 2011 by Tensei

[BardicKnowledge]

Tensei, that article definitely shows some bias:

"Mana and energy management are much easier in LoL than in the other games; Riot says on their website that being able to spam spells makes the game more exciting (not kidding), and many champions have no mana at all."

First of all, it's hard to argue that more action in lane with more casting isn't more exciting than less casting (putting other lane mechanics such as denying aside). Second, the vast majority of the champions that use energy or raw cooldowns are very well balanced to do so -- otherwise we'd be seeing all ninja + Garen teams in competitive play and we don't. He makes no mention of the idea that the champions aren't totally broken by a mechanic that differs from DotA.

(In HoN/DotA) "There is no consolation prize for feeding over and over. A hero is worth the same amount of gold and experience no matter how many times they die, which often leads to good players focusing on bad players in order to kill them over and over and thus becoming extremely farmed."

This is a _good_ idea that LoL has to prevent snowballing, something the entire genre suffers from greatly. Why attack it solely because it's different?

"There are no items which reduce stun duration, or built-in spells to help you get away. Many times a single stun can spell your doom, especially if you're a squishy hero without an escape mechanism."

Tablet of Command says hi, not to mention using a blink dagger to get yourself out when you see trouble coming before you get snared. I agree with some overall point that Flash needs to be toned down (Cleanse is also under assault here, but doesn't seem as big of a deal), but the idea of saying HoN/DotA offers no escape mechanics is a biased way of presenting the information since he doesn't provide sufficient context.

"Juking is a lot more advanced as well."

This I largely agree with, though there are _definitely_ some neat tricks you can do by utilizing the brush, especially in combination with Ghost or Flash. I'd say that the ability to cut down trees only rarely comes into play -- it's the LoL equivalent of brush-juking by running out the way you came in, and works about as well (which is to say you get a slight gain from point blank, and if you were going to make it out anyway then you're just being needlessly fancy).

He doesn't consider the concept that no buybacks in LoL makes every fight count for more, since you can't ever just have enough gold to respawn. While I like the buyback concept, it's MUCH easier to lose two guys and get over-run in LoL than it is in HoN because if you lose a carry in LoL, they aren't coming back even with 500 ck.

I agree that LoL's heroes suck overall compared to HoN and DotA, but it's interesting to me that he list the Anivia (from LoL) egg mechanic as something unique and interesting to DotA.

On summoner spells, he mentions that Ghost, Cleanse, Flash, and Exhaust are escapes. If you use Ghost and Exhaust to get out of a problem, then you can't use them to gank, which is what they're for. Flash the same but more problematic as it does create ungankable situations (unlike the others), and Cleanse is well balanced for LoL imo and can't be used offensively, so you're giving up a bunch of power by taking it.

Team composition is more versatile mostly as a result of lack of differentiation amongst the hero pool in LoL. Worth mentioning that not every team takes a healer. Lane compositions he pretty much nails it, LoL is well behind there and there's no defending it. I could potentially see running 1-2-1 + jungle as a means of disrupting a particularly dangerous mid hero, but you've gotta be able to fight for dragon.

On rune spawns vs. jungle buffs, it is outright comical to see him defending random chance as part of a competitive game. Not saying that LoL is outright superior here, but not recognizing this as biased at best is outrageous. He also ignores the fact that a good team will prevent opponents from getting buffs -- stealing blue early is very common even at our pub level, about as common as fighting over the 2:00 rune is.

Regarding denying and last hitting he defends DotA/HoN's variable damage, which is thankfully being addressed by DotA 2 (not to mention LoL). This is also biased and just stupid on his part. I do agree that the denying mechanic makes laning more interesting though, even as its removal makes gameplay more inviting to new players.

Creep pulling is an awesome mechanic -- I'm surprised that you can't do that with golems in LoL, but you can't and therefore there is an element of gameplay complexity that simply doesn't exist there for the worse. Good observation by him.

Ganking is more viable in HoN/DotA than in LoL but not for the reasons he mentions. It's not so much about the dearth of entrances but instead about tower damage (which he does say but does not focus on). Bringing up Striders is stupid when the exact same item exists in LoL.

The debate about wards is interesting because he mentions that LoL wards last only 1/2 the time that HoN/DotA wards do. He does not mention that they also cost less to make up for it. I do agree that Oracle is cheaper than it should be, and taking up an inventory slot is a big deal. Dropping on death is NOT a big deal, since 90% of the time you're going to destroy the Gem when you get it (which is the same as having the effect end on death).

LoL doesn't have nearly the carry structure that HoN/DotA do -- this is more because everyone continues to be viable due to AP scaling than to the idea that you can keep someone down due to killing them. Whether this is good or bad comes down to team structure, where we already agree than HoN/DotA provide more options (all pusher teams, etc).

LoL is currently much bigger than HoN, and I don't see that changing. It also features newer prize pools, information that was available to this author but obviously he chose to not include it to make his point look better. I would agree with his overall point that DotA is the most competitive atm, incidentally.

Having to buy heroes/runes does not strongly effect anyone I've seen at level 30. Complaining about this is a joke -- get over it, and get used to the new payment model (which isn't paying at all, necessarily!)

Overall, a decent writeup but one with obvious biases against LoL that are inserted for no reason.

Edited September 16, 2011 by BardicKnowledge

[Tensei]

I don't think he's attacking or defending LoL at a lot of the points you quoted though. Granted, the term 'consolation prize' might seem negative, but the entire sentence on reduced gold bounty on repeated kills looks relatively neutral to me, and it paints HoN/DotA as a bit worse than LoL in my opinion.

You're right about the part on the randomness of rune spawns, but the notion that the runes in and of themselves promote a more aggressive playstyle and force clashes in the river is right on the money IMO. I don't think he's defending the randomness, but rather the concept as a whole.

Hear me out on the cooldowns/mana regen inlane though. I consider HoN a lot more exciting in the laning phase because spells matter a lot more. You have to be on edge almost all the time because failing to dodge certain skillshots can mean an early death, and it goes both ways. I don't really think spell spam makes a game inherently more exciting because for balancing reasons the spells will obviously have a lot less impact, and I personally prefer powerful spells that can turn a fight in your favor (which in turn allows you to play around more with baiting people while low on HP etc.) to weaksauce spells that you have to constantly poke with to get any leverage out of them.

You also mention him defending variable base damage, but the only relevant sentence I could find is: " Variable base damage also means that you can never be exactly sure how much you will do, sometimes causing luck to make you miss (or gain) creep kills.", and there he's basically just describing the differences without voicing an opinion either way.

Finally, I think that when he mentions competitive viability, he is primarily referring to the ingame mechanics, overall balance as well as the interface features (pausing, replays, spectator interface, etc.), rather than prize pools, and in that respect I think LoL is really lagging behind the competition.

Oh, and Anivias passive is pretty obviously based on the Phoenix' rebirth skill in WC3, which is in turn where the Dota Phoenix gets his ultimate from.

E: Honestly, after rereading, I think HoN comes out as the worst. He actually praises the LoL community as the best one, mentions how it has the easiest learning curve, and how the more confusing mechanics are deliberately kept out.

Edited September 17, 2011 by Tensei

[eternal Zero]

laned with a riven last night that build almost exclusively movespeed with quints, early boots, and janna's passive, and she was all over the lane all the time. it was awesome to watch her just swoop everywhere.

we zoned the snot out of caitlyn and yi. he even stopped using his alpha strike until they were under his tower because of how bad he'd get stomped every time he came out.

that said, i think she's reeeeaaaalllllly powerful early game, and is an excellent assassin late-game. i've seen some terrible players and some stellar players so far, but the terrible rivens are still better than most other terrible pubs

Riven can be pretty hit or miss. I've played 6 games with her pretty much in a row. 2 have been severe stomps where I got fed early and then proceeded to dive towers with no problems due to Valor and Hexdrinker shields also a Judgement-esque AoE ult with a 27 second cooldown is pretty awesome. 1 was a normal win. I mean I guess I still went 6-2-4 and dove a lot...so it was probably an early surrender. Then the other 3 games I just did decent but lost cause enemy ranged AD carries got fed and she has a real problem with that late game.

She's meant to be a 1v1 solo laner or a solid mid. She's a real bully early game as long as you're disciplined with attacking in between Broken Wings and abusing the fact that she's a cooldown character so you just go in every time. 4 dashes is an amazing thing and really lets you set up some stupid things. Biggest peeve is that her attack animation doesn't speed up enough to match higher attack speeds so it's not as satisfying to melt towers or enemy tanks.

Also I guess I'd consider myself as one of the better Rivens out there from what I've seen so she's not really the overpowered monster I had predicted but still very solid and definitely a lot of fun to play even when you're not doing so great.

[zircon]

http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/3383/vijistats.jpg

Wow, if this is real then this is a giant step in the right direction for LoL champ design. Very cool.

[prophetik music]

http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/3383/vijistats.jpg

Wow, if this is real then this is a giant step in the right direction for LoL champ design. Very cool.

too many grammatical errors. i'd love to think that it was true, but i doubt it.

plus, the next three champs are already mapped out. two ranged DPS yordles and a creature made of pure energy named magus.

[Tensei]

http://img221.imageshack.us/img221/3383/vijistats.jpg

Wow, if this is real then this is a giant step in the right direction for LoL champ design. Very cool.

That artwork is way too good for Riot.

Edited September 17, 2011 by Tensei

[prophetik music]

just had an absurd game with amphibious/hoser and his buddy. i was amumu, he was sona, his buddy on skype was riven, and we had a pub irelia and a pub karthas. irelia ragequit at 12m (1-2-0) and karthus was busy letting corki hose him mid-lane, so we were sure we were toast. then karthas dc'd from a bad connection.

then we aced them several times, 3v5, without baron.

i went 9-11-28, with GA, merc treads, FH, abyssal scepter, rylai's, and banshee's veil. karthus would reconnect, ult and get a double kill, and then dc again. meanwhile, the three of us were CREAMING their entire team in teamfights, and we managed to ace them under their top inhib tower. they surrendered at 50m =) final was 44/32/81 for the team.

we got lucky, really - a team of corki, garen, ryze, riven, and amumu should have annihilated us, but instead they'd all blow their stuff on me when i was basically unkillable for their farm at that point (3k HP, 263/233 resists) and had a GA. so they'd all nail me, we'd pop everyone's banshee's, and then when i ulted everyone basically died. AP amumu does stupid damage, and i could easily solo any of their damage dealers pretty much no matter what.

it was an awesome game.

[Dissidia]

Me and my friend (Taric) were on skype and what seemed like an obvious death to Taric turned out to be a 3 for 0 exchange that made them surrender.

[The Derrit]

just went 1/1/18 mid as galio. GALIO MID EASY MODE

also draft pick games seem to have less trolls and shitty players that was a clever way for riot to weed them out. what troll wants to wait 3 minutes in queue and in lobby?

[Bleck]

why Riot hasn't let people play normal games with draft mode is beyond me