Nutritious Posted November 13, 2011 Share Posted November 13, 2011 Yes, it is. After round 1, the largest point spread is 4 points. Guess what? After round 2, it is very possible for a team currently in fourth place to take the lead.True, it's not "anyone's contest" if the same team consistently wins every round, since that would create an insurmountable lead by the fourth or fifth round (if there were only six rounds), but that's hardly the fault of the voting system, is it? Oh geez, I'm posting again, sorry guys. I would say a 4 point lead in the current system is actually more insurmountable than a literal vote count. I posted this before, but I think I'll highlight it here for the tldr folks: If you are going to implement a tiered scoring system, it should probably have tighter point awards like 1st place: 10, 2nd place: 8, 3rd place 6, 4th and on 5. That way the ratio from first to last is 2:1, rather than the 5:1 we currently have. I say post both a tighter tiered point spread plus literal vote scores (if people want that). Ok, I'm done posting now, promise Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orlouge82 Posted November 13, 2011 Share Posted November 13, 2011 Tell you what then, let's take the vote totals and divide them by 100. So halc actually got .64 in the first round. That means that even a team with zero points is less than 1 point off from winning. Wouldn't that be even better than what you're suggesting? I mean, everyone's score would be super close.My point is, it doesn't matter that the current system uses smaller values. What matters is proportions. True, and I agree that it seems unfair that those teams very close to third place are left kind of in the dust. However, it would also punish teams that did not submit or that received no votes in the dust, and may thus discourage participation in future rounds of the competition. Maybe a good compromise would be expanding the finishers beyond a top three? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Covenant Posted November 13, 2011 Share Posted November 13, 2011 However, it would also punish teams that did not submit or that received no votes in the dust, and may thus discourage participation in future rounds of the competition. Both systems give zero points to those that don't submit. This has no bearing on rounds when they do submit. If getting zero points discourages a team in one system, it'll discourage them in another. Zero is zero. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phonetic Hero Posted November 13, 2011 Share Posted November 13, 2011 Hey everyone, Prophecy's keeping the tally regardless, and Darke's gonna be like, "What-EVAH, What-EVAH, I do what I want!" So stop flooding the thread and just follow Jason's tally instead Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Covenant Posted November 13, 2011 Share Posted November 13, 2011 Hey everyone, Prophecy's keeping the tally regardless, and Darke's gonna be like, "What-EVAH, What-EVAH, I do what I want!" So stop flooding the thread and just follow Jason's tally instead =) I realize a few people have made comments about "venting" or whatever, but I'm of the opinion that people have been very mature about this. Honestly, when I first saw the discussion I expected things to get way out of hand, but I think people have been for the most part very adult and respectful in this discussion. Even if darke decides to go with a system where everyone gets zero points and Stabby Mcflutters the spider monkey gets 35834545 each round round, I'd still eagerly participate in the compo. In that same breath, I'd still keep score so people can track progress and so that I can at least pretend that my 2nd and 3rd place votes counted. (In the current system, they don't. Both Sir Nuts and Lidawg got 1 point.) Either way, everything will work out and people will still have fun. I just think they'd have more fun with a system with a 1:1 ratio of votes to points. 1 vote, 1 point. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gario Posted November 13, 2011 Share Posted November 13, 2011 So stop flooding the thread and just follow Jason's tally instead You know... that's a brilliant idea. Not like there's an elimination, or anything, so no reason not to have one's own alternative tally, if you want it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WillRock Posted November 13, 2011 Share Posted November 13, 2011 might be a moot point by now, but one thing i've just done was to show people how simplifying the votes properly would have ended up changing everything. Right now, My team (block rockin beats) is 5 points ahead with 64 in the voting tally. So I found the right number to divide 64 by so it would be closest to five, and rounded it up/down (which is 13). If I divide the voting tally by 13 for every track and round to the closest whole number, the points system goes like this: Block Rockmen Beats - 5 Bad Guy Robots From Mega Man - 4 The Beat Busters - 4 The Hard Men - 4 Blue Bomber Brother Hood - 4 The Concrete Men - 3 Cold Steel - 2 Dr. Lights Luminosity legion - 2 The Mega Ballers - 2 The GentleMasters Club - 1 Notice the difference? I sure do. Just a quick observation, go back to your prophecy tallying Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Main Finger Posted November 13, 2011 Share Posted November 13, 2011 Main finger, even though you could have farted into a microphone for 3 min and got the same points, we would be down one great mix. Would we? Perhaps you underestimate my harmonious flatulence. Anyway..... even if the scoring system doesn't change can we at least have individual round rankings get incorporated into the roster sheet? That way we actually know where we stand each time we submit a mix without having to dig for it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
orlouge82 Posted November 13, 2011 Share Posted November 13, 2011 =)Even if darke decides to go with a system where everyone gets zero points and Stabby Mcflutters the spider monkey gets 35834545 each round round, I'd still eagerly participate in the compo. Wait wait wait, Stabby Mcflutters the spider monkey is competing??? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexstyle Posted November 13, 2011 Share Posted November 13, 2011 I want to know why people are getting their panties in a knot over a competition that doesn't have any prize other than bragging rights. I'm having a blast--and I'm only here to sharpen my ReMixing skills. Just participate, have fun, and enjoy the music! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Covenant Posted November 13, 2011 Share Posted November 13, 2011 You know... that's a brilliant idea. Not like there's an elimination, or anything, so no reason not to have one's own alternative tally, if you want it. That may very well be what happens. I don't think it's darkesword's intention to disenfranchise anyone or introduce unfairness. It is my hope that he adopts a system where votes equal points and the person you vote for gets the points you allot to them. And if darke does keep the current system but most people rely on the actual tally, what does that say about the current system? What purpose does it have if no one follows its results? Anyway..... even if the scoring system doesn't change can we at least have individual round rankings get incorporated into the roster sheet? That way we actually know where we stand each time we submit a mix without having to dig for it. If darkesword doesn't I'll still be keeping a tally. I'll also give individual round rankings. No worries. The info will be available regardless. I want to know why people are getting their panties in a knot over a competition that doesn't have any prize other than bragging rights. I'm having a blast--and I'm only here to sharpen my ReMixing skills. Just participate, have fun, and enjoy the music! I suggest you read the thread before responding... Wait wait wait, Stabby Mcflutters the spider monkey is competing??? Unfortunately for all of us, that is the case. At least second place is still available. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Main Finger Posted November 13, 2011 Share Posted November 13, 2011 I want to know why people are getting their panties in a knot over a competition that doesn't have any prize other than bragging rights. I'm having a blast--and I'm only here to sharpen my ReMixing skills. Just participate, have fun, and enjoy the music! As was mentioned, a lot of people are putting a large amount of thought into meticulously choosing which mixes to vote for and with the current system if they didn't vote for the top 3 then those votes basically go straight into the garbage. Also, I should note I was in 7th so I'm one of the people that would "benefit" from everybody being tied at 4th, but I still find this score system disappointing. However, I will still have fun and try to make a great mix when my turn comes around again. I just won't have that extra motivational pressure of how it affects my team because it probably won't... at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexstyle Posted November 13, 2011 Share Posted November 13, 2011 As was mentioned, a lot of people are putting a large amount of thought into meticulously choosing which mixes to vote for and with the current system if they didn't vote for the top 3 then those votes basically go straight into the garbage. Ah, see, I'm just voting for whichever songs I like best, based on production quality/musicality/musicianship and arrangement (in that order). I guess maybe I'm just not taking this as seriously as some people? EDIT: I should also mention that I think the voting is going to be almost entirely subjective no mater how we end up scoring it, so I'm not bothering to be terribly scientific about it at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Covenant Posted November 13, 2011 Share Posted November 13, 2011 Ah, see, I'm just voting for whichever songs I like best, based on production quality/musicality/musicianship and arrangement (in that order). I guess maybe I'm just not taking this as seriously as some people?EDIT: I should also mention that I think the voting is going to be almost entirely subjective no mater how we end up scoring it, so I'm not bothering to be terribly scientific about it at all. That's the point. And those opinions, no matter how subjective should still count. The problem with the current system is that some votes won't count at all. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Xarnax42 Posted November 13, 2011 Share Posted November 13, 2011 As a member of of a team that looks to have 1 point (to 9 or 10 for first) after two rounds in the current system (and probably 9 [to well over 100] in the proposed alternatives), I'm not concerned one bit that we'll still be in striking distance if we throw out some unexpected hits. Collectively, my teammates and I are far and a way the least experienced, and I don't think any of us really expected to be competitive. What the tallies can offer us, however, is a quick glance at how we measure up to the competition, and -- based on how we've started -- can show how much we improve. The official results don't really matter to me, but I do think the current system seems a bit arbitrary and spreads the top out a little too much. Nutritious made the best argument with the example of consistently solid vs. occasionally awesome groups. There are other options that would require more of voters and be a bit more tedious (say, rate each mix on a scale of 1 to 10) that could even more accurately reflect each entry's reception, but I think Jason et. al have a legitimate solution for an obvious sore spot. Also, Jason and SectorZ - thanks for the score sheets. I'll definitely be keeping my eyes on those. Finally, votes are really secondary in terms of feedback. It takes a lot of time to critically listen to 10-12 tracks. Thanks to everyone who took the time to share their impressions, reviews, and especially critiques for Round 1. I hope you and others keep that going. Especially for the people who aren't getting votes, it's REALLY encouraging to hear what you liked about our tracks. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Main Finger Posted November 13, 2011 Share Posted November 13, 2011 Yes, the full written reviews are awesome feedback and I want to commend all of those who took the time to do it. I plan to continue doing that every round as well (time permitting). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Covenant Posted November 13, 2011 Share Posted November 13, 2011 Yes, the full written reviews are awesome feedback and I want to commend all of those who took the time to do it. I plan to continue doing that every round as well (time permitting). I think that's one of the best and most important parts of these compos. Both written reviews and votes are great forms of feedback and can help people realize what they are doing wrong and what they're doing right. I'm sorry I didn't post any last round. I started some, but didn't finish before the start of the second round. Seems a little late now. If anyone wants a review on their track, feel free to ask. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ectogemia Posted November 13, 2011 Share Posted November 13, 2011 I appreciate the alternative vote tally you're doing, Prophecy. I think a direct count like yours is the fairest method, no offense Darke. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SuperiorX Posted November 13, 2011 Share Posted November 13, 2011 I think that's one of the best and most important parts of these compos. Both written reviews and votes are great forms of feedback and can help people realize what they are doing wrong and what they're doing right. I'm sorry I didn't post any last round. I started some, but didn't finish before the start of the second round. Seems a little late now. If anyone wants a review on their track, feel free to ask. I would appreciate feedback from anyone who is willing to provide it. If anyone feels so inclined, just PM me so we don't clutter up the main thread. Also I have to say I'm in favor of the adjusted scoring system. Even though I would benefit from the current system, I think having the votes counted individually or having some point allocation for ranks 1-12 based on individual votes, would be the most fair. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Covenant Posted November 13, 2011 Share Posted November 13, 2011 I appreciate the alternative vote tally you're doing, Prophecy. I think a direct count like yours is the fairest method, no offense Darke. Np. I've been thinking of ways to do it in as clear a manner as possible. I'm open to suggestions. I would appreciate feedback from anyone who is willing to provide it. If anyone feels so inclined, just PM me so we don't clutter up the main thread. Ok. Expect a pm from me in the near future. Bug me if I forget. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rexy Posted November 13, 2011 Share Posted November 13, 2011 Well let's just say I'm still against it. Jason's proposed idea smells like the old DoD system, where people just vote on what they have with the limitations they've got, and the ones that are the worst hit are the ones that they purposely didn't want to care about. And that was a system that I was extremely annoyed with back in the day, so much to the point that some of the best mixes I saw coming out of the DoD were left in the bottom half percentile. (Their new system with the sliders is a lot more fairer though, no disrespect to the DoD as a community.) And yes, I know this system is upsetting a lot of people, but let's just STOP getting upset about it and move on. I swear everyone's going to get headaches in the morning if this keeps getting debated >_> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jason Covenant Posted November 13, 2011 Share Posted November 13, 2011 Well let's just say I'm still against it. Jason's proposed idea smells like the old DoD system, where people just vote on what they have with the limitations they've got, and the ones that are the worst hit are the ones that they purposely didn't want to care about. There will always be biases. But this system makes that worse. Your votes don't count unless you vote for someone that ends up in the top 3. So people, wanting their votes to have some impact, have an incentive to vote for people that are popular or they think will win, instead of who they really think should win. Don't you think a fun competition should have some basis in merit? And yes, I know this system is upsetting a lot of people, but let's just STOP getting upset about it and move on. I swear everyone's going to get headaches in the morning if this keeps getting debated >_> If your goal is to end this conversation, I'm curious to know what you expected to accomplish just now by adding to it. You don't need to read any more posts about this discussion. You can ignore it and focus on other things if you wish. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Phonetic Hero Posted November 13, 2011 Share Posted November 13, 2011 So people, wanting their votes to have some impact, have an incentive to vote for people that are popular or they think will win, instead of who they really think should win. Don't you think a fun competition should have some basis in merit? Great Scott, this is exactly how I've been feeling. It's like people look to the voting thread to see who they should vote for. Certainly, Gario's piece is frackin' awesome (and the sources were VERY well interpreted), but the rest is pretty much style preference, since the production quality was about the same for a lot of the big names, and I felt that for the most part, there wasn't a whole lot of interpretation this round... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon Strader Posted November 13, 2011 Share Posted November 13, 2011 Y'all sound like a bunch of mini-prophetiks whining cause you aren't getting votes Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nutritious Posted November 13, 2011 Share Posted November 13, 2011 Y'all sound like a bunch of mini-prophetiks whining cause you aren't getting votes This wasn't called for. Please keep the trolling out of this thread. The discussion/debate has been pretty civil so far IMO. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts
Join the conversation
You can post now and register later. If you have an account, sign in now to post with your account.