Stop Online Piracy Act

[Bahamut]

And when this comes up in another year or two, I'll come back and say "I told you so" again.

You've told us nothing. Just because something happens does not mean it validates your claims. Leave that condescending attitude at the door, it's not needed here.

[JackKieser]

I guess you're right, in a way: I only relayed to you, oh, only pretty much everything Lawrence Lessig said, so in a manner of speaking, he told you so. Doesn't change the fact that this could have been predicted 5 years ago. And, yes, I'd say it's a pretty big validation of our claims. I've told you plenty, you just all plugged your ears and ignored it. So, go ahead, debate how to stop SOPA, and in a few years, you'll be debating the next piece of legislation trying to dismantle the internet so that a few companies can make more money at the expense of real human ingenuity.

EDIT: Just out of curiosity, who here read that link about the Swiss and didn't think back to all those times I argued that a pirated download =/= a lost sale? It's nice to have a neutral nation's independent study validate a claim made years ago. Also, who read that and though "you know what, Switzerland seems like a nice place to live?"

[Gario]

We still don't agree with your positions on copyright, Jack, and no, people don't think that this was an 'inevitable outcome' of copyrights, but rather a power struggle with the middle man. Despite what you believe, people saw this one coming from miles away. The only surprise that came to any of us was that it's gotten as far into congress as it has.

Correlation does not equal causation, so no, this event does not validate your position (or Lawrence's position, for that matter) like you'd want to believe. Maybe you should learn a little bit about basic logic before posting something like this.

By the way, waltzing into a thread and calling everybody on the site a moron, or wait, as you put it...

Oh, and when I say "you people", I mean everyone on this site who "poo poo"ed me when I said that things would come to this eventually, the people who are content with rules that let whoever happens to register anything with the government have complete iron-clad totalitarian control over anything for all time, forever, even after death...

... alright, yeah, everyone, isn't the best way to push any position, even if it were correct. It just makes you look like an immature twelve year old who just learned how to use online forums for the first time, and everyone else will treat you as such. If you want any intelligent discourse on it, respond in a manner that doesn't denigrate other members on the site. You get brownie points if you actually make your responses in the appropriate threads (or even make a new one to fit your ranting) rather than derail the current one with your thoughts.

Or not. Fuckall if anyone cares about you past the point that you're trolling and breaking the thread (making fun of other members to get a response is a form of 'trolling').

[JackKieser]

You're right, Gario. It's all very coincidental. Forget the Swiss, I suppose; it's just a conincidence that their (quite thorough) analysis just happened to mirror exactly what people like Lessig have been saying about how "piracy" actually affects the world. You're right; it's all a coincidence.

Or, maybe people who have a monetary stake in the system, like, I don't know, a significant number of the artists on this site, are super biased and are simply uninformed. See, that's the interesting thing: all it takes is some light reading to see how messed up the system is. I read through "Free Culture" in about 2 nights (granted, I was enthralled, and Lessig's writing is really engaging, so it wasn't hard). Someone who isn't educated isn't stupid; he's just not educated.

Someone who consciously chooses not to educate himself / herself is.

[Bahamut]

I guarantee I'm more educated than you - if you can't check that condescending attitude out the door, I'm going to warn you to refrain from posting or face a ban.

I have had a run in with the RIAA myself 6-8 years ago. The RIAA constantly complained about an organization I worked for in Congress. The reason? We didn't do enough to their liking about cracking down on copyright infringers, despite it not being our place to. I understand full and well the crap the RIAA would lobby for such as the Save Mickey Mouse Act. I've been around the issue far longer than you have, so don't act like you know everything when you clearly have shown how little you know with your lackluster application of logic. What you've been saying is tantamount to saying "[insert phenomena] happened, so God must exist!" Not to say that believing in a faith necessarily is a bad thing, but at least know what type of argument you're making before you make it.

[LuketheXjesse]

Wow fuck this jackkieser guy. If you're gonna post just for the sake of being an asshole then get the fuck out.

[The Damned]

Why are people quoting Jack?

Has he come truly come back?

Is that why I see his text, in black?

In those quotes, so neatly stacked?

Or do I see someone new?

No, I see that it is true.

Jack is here again, you!

Prepare for philosophic battle, foo'.

My apologies to Mr. T.

I do so hope he pities thee.

I did mean to mock of he,

that man who would surely toss me.

So once again, I see it's Jack.

It's so nice to know he's back.

Yes I used that rhyme back two tracks,

it's awfully hard to rhyme like that.

But now I ask, for I must,

did his last ban just go bust?

In the mods, should we still trust

that their bans are still so just?

Nay, I plead to you all.

Do not let this troll fall

his ax of wrath and rage on you all.

Be the better man, and stand tall!

Rather more, let us continue on ahead

to the matter that fills us with dread.

Should this bill not soon be dead,

surely it be a watershed.

Indeed, having read it some,

I indeed feel, a bit, undone.

It seems a terrible idea, this one.

Almost like a political pun.

But enough of this silly rhyme!

It is nearly almost my bedtime.

Of The Coop I shall no longer mime,

for truly he is OCRs wordsmith prime.

[JackKieser]

One run in with the RIAA does not an educated person make. I feel for you, really I do, because no one should have to deal with those assholes, but just because they came knocking one day, that doesn't mean you know both sides to a story. All that tells me is that you're perfectly qualified to comment on how big of dicks the RIAA is.

Meanwhile, I quoted excerpts from writings of copyright lawyers, posted multiple articles proving (or at bare minimum, heavily supporting) stances, and even linked to a 29-page / 3 year discussion from both sides about IP law in its entirety, and the most I usually get in return is a "stop trying to tell us we shouldn't make money, Jack". Meanwhile, I know how tempting it is to try to use the law to justify forcing people to give you money because, hey, who doesn't like money?

So, say whatever you want. If you don't want to see that I (and others, like Lessig) have made an "A leads to B leads to C leads to D" argument, and that A has led to B which has led to C, and still don't want to even entertain the possibility that D will happen, be my guest (although I'm willing it bet it's probably due to conflict of interest, just like it is with the RIAA and MPAA). The literature is not on your side. The money is on your side, sure, but the literature isn't.

[orlouge82]

What the hell are we even talking about anymore?

Last I checked, this is a topic about SOPA/PIPA, not copyright reform or whatever this thread has devolved into. Start a new thread if you want to discuss that.

[AngelCityOutlaw]

Jack, are you naturally a dumb ass or does this come from years of intense training?

[JackKieser]

SOPA is copyright reform; it's reforming the system to be more totalitarian. It's reform... just reform in the wrong direction. And, I'd start a new thread, except I already did that once and it got shut down. Mainly because it turns out a website full of people that make money off of music don't like it too much when you argue that they shouldn't be making quite so much money from said music... Go figure.

[AngelCityOutlaw]

SOPA is copyright reform; it's reforming the system to be more totalitarian. It's reform... just reform in the wrong direction. And, I'd start a new thread, except I already did that once and it got shut down. Mainly because it turns out a website full of people that make money off of music don't like it too much when you argue that they shouldn't be making quite so much money from said music... Go figure.

Years of intense training it is.

P.S. Your profile wall is full of pissed off Darkesword. If he ever gives you the boot from this site, I will dedicate a cover version of "Hit the road Jack" to you.

[Kenogu Labz]

No-one on this site makes money from any of this music. That makes absolutely no sense.

Please, Jack, you really either don't know what you're talking about or don't understand how to properly apply it discerningly. The reason your last topic was shut down was because you speak to everyone as if you are the end-all and be-all of all copyright law knowledge, when, in fact, you have acknowledged that you are in or just out of university (correct me if I'm wrong, it's been awhile). More than anything, your attitude will turn people off, and no-one will listen to an argument when given with that condescending tone. Change it, or I guarantee you will be shown the door.

[Gario]

The Damned's post pretty much makes Jack's return worthwhile.

Alright, back on topic: has anyone seen SOPA/PIPA's reasoning behind removing due process from copyright enforcement? I heard about the whole bypass of due process everywhere, read the bill and found it to be true. I really, really want to know what pro-SOPA/PIPA people would have to say about the blatant breach of the 5th amendment.

[JackKieser]

No-one on this site makes money from any of this music. That makes absolutely no sense.

That's not what I said; I said that many people on this site are professional musicians. Ask Zircon how much money he makes selling music / music software / musicianship services, and I guarantee you it will be a positive non-0 number. Obviously, anyone like that is biased in the matter of copyright law and has a serious conflict of interest.

I'd respond to the rest, but it's off-topic. If you want to discuss my tone, take it to PMs.

That being said, I'm (obviously) not for SOPA, but I've heard people try to defend it. Most people try to avoid the 5th Amendment issues because, well, they're very obvious. What I've read / heard the most is that it's essentially no worse than the USA PATRIOT Act, so it must be ok (which is glaring for its own reasons).

[The Coop]

What do you mean, "you people"?

He's just pulling a Ross Perot. That's all.

[RDX]

This Jack fellow is a complete asshole who should probably quit acting like a little kid if he wants to be taken seriously, but he's right, no one has really properly refuted him.

[Bleck]

the joke here is that jack kieser is actually right

[Tensei]

You know what? I agree.

SOPA is symptomatic for larger underlying problems and it doesn't take a genius to see that they'll keep on trying to push something similar through, as they already tried in the past.

The Swiss governments stance ("Companies should adapt to new media rather than the other way around") is the right way to look at things IMO.

You are all little kids for jumping on the guy without even reading or understanding what he had to say.

[Upthorn]

JackKieser is right, but that doesn't mean he's not being a pretentious faux-intellectual about it.

JackKieser: stop being a pretentious snot.

Everyone else: Stop disregarding what Jack says just because he's a pretentious snot.

Disregarding what Jack says because he's a pretentious jackass about it is like if I say "The sky is blue because Hitler outlawed masturbation in Germany during WWII." And you go "Hitler never outlawed masturbation, so you're full of shit. The sky isn't blue, jackass!"

[mickomoo]

Not to jump on this newly started bandwagon but I thought SOPA was explicitly about copyright, IIRC most of the defenses of the bill explicitly state SOPA is designed to "protect creativity," which ultimately explicit means the defense of intellectual property and even the rights of "copyright holders." Seriously google the bill and the words intellectual property will come up. (Of course because the bill was produced from lobbying this merely means coperations who, by this government in several other instances in the past decade, were deemed to be individuals are going to be protected. And because the defense of creativity is so broad it simply amounts to removing whatever these "individuals" deem to be harmful to their creativity).

But while the bill was explicitly stated to be about copyright, I think that's not getting the big picture, it has to be about more... well, there definitely is more at stake for us. Information itself will no longer be free, once information becomes thoroughly made into a commodity, individual empowerment and even knowledge itself will begin to disappear. But again, this is about money; nothing can be free and everything must be owned. If the internet has content that can be claimed by individuals, then they will continue this process, they have both time and money on their side.

And surely cooperations do lose out when information is free, in fact in this system, information is naturally asymmetric. The internet if it begins to be taken seriously, could possibly mitigate if not help liberate us from the disadvantages of asymmetric information. People were asking earlier why consumer products, cosmetics, pharmaceutical, and other random groups are supporting this bill? It's obvious, to me, and maybe I'm going on a limb but I think the less people know about these companies and their products and services, hell the less people know period, is of any company's interest. Uniformed consumers, ignorant consumers are any company's dream you could sell them anything, convince them of whatever you want. Information is heavily processed through advertising and through media conglomerates; outside of the internet, information is already a commodity. Once we get rid of the internet, information will be nearly rendered to private interests.

[orlouge82]

That being said, I'm (obviously) not for SOPA, but I've heard people try to defend it. Most people try to avoid the 5th Amendment issues because, well, they're very obvious. What I've read / heard the most is that it's essentially no worse than the USA PATRIOT Act, so it must be ok (which is glaring for its own reasons).

The First Amendment issues are more egregious (and the Fifth Amendment issues are mostly incidental to the First Amendment ones).

As far as SOPA being worse than the PATRIOT Act, they are different. Not really comparable.

The reason why SOPA is meeting so much opposition when the PATRIOT Act didn't is because SOPA's impact is much broader (yes, the PATRIOT Act has some pretty severe Due Process violations, but they've only thus far been applied narrowly, whereas SOPA will destroy the Internet).

Also, SOPA isn't the result of people having IP rights. It's the product of corporations abusing those rights and of money's impact on politics. Instead of abolishing all IP rights, we should just ban politicians from owning private property the second that they are elected until the day they die.

[Ragnarock]

The First Amendment issues are more egregious (and the Fifth Amendment issues are mostly incidental to the First Amendment ones).

As far as SOPA being worse than the PATRIOT Act, they are different. Not really comparable.

The reason why SOPA is meeting so much opposition when the PATRIOT Act didn't is because SOPA's impact is much broader (yes, the PATRIOT Act has some pretty severe Due Process violations, but they've only thus far been applied narrowly, whereas SOPA will destroy the Internet).

Also, SOPA isn't the result of people having IP rights. It's the product of corporations abusing those rights and of money's impact on politics. Instead of abolishing all IP rights, we should just ban politicians from owning private property the second that they are elected until the day they die.

Not only that, but the Patriot Act was enacted in response to 9/11. This... not so much.

[Cash]

My only concern is stopping the bill, and all others like it.

[Gario]

Even if you agree with Jack's message, this is still not the right place to post it. His subject matter is not about SOPA but about copyright itself. People are not here to talk about copyright again, but to discuss this current law that may or may not come into effect. Quite honestly I might like to discuss what Jack has to offer, but this is not the right place to do so, and thus I've avoided pushing the topic further. If anyone wants to have an intelligent discussion on it, make a new PPR thread about it - that forums been dead for a while anyway, may as well bring something up that'll spark it back to life again.

I'm not disregarding his message for the sake of it - I'm disregarding it because I would like this thread to continue on it's intended trajectory. Please, if anyone wants to continue their Jack-off-topic discourse make a new thread about it in PPR. This isn't PPR, so I'm not going to have a PPR discussion about it here, and we shouldn't be expected to, either.