Videogames and Sexism

[Archaon]

Perhaps I should have just said "Don't call women sluts." There is nothing wrong with a woman being sexually forward.

[Bleck]

Well then, you clearly didn't read my post after Darkesword's. Which I'm not going to explain because it makes perfect sense to anyone with more than 1/4 of a brain. At no point was the "value" of a person judged upon appearance.

so can I call this guy an idiot yet or would that be "trolling"

[EC2151]

That also worked to help make the Legion more horrifying. While the NCR had generally progressive views and for the most part had the right idea, the Legion wanted to revert back to the ass-end of history and their treatment of women as mere breeding stock really hit that home.

But NCR was corrupt, bloated, and imperialistic - in a sense they really weren't all that different from the Legion, but they had Old-World rhetoric of democracy and freedom to hide behind.

All three factions in New Vegas were major assholes. At least up top. Kind of made for a better role-playing experience than Fallout 3, I feel.

Fallout NV had a nice range of characters, at least in terms of sexuality (though Arcade was kind of whiny, but that has nothing to do with sexuality) - with Veronica, Arcade, and everyone's favorite bi, Cass.

You might be able to complain about the large amount of hookers in New Vegas itself, but they are so glitchy and plastic-looking that the way they inhumanly glide around the place locked in their "sexy dance" animation is more endearing than anything.

[A.COE]

But NCR was corrupt, bloated, and imperialistic - in a sense they really weren't all that different from the Legion, but they had Old-World rhetoric of democracy and freedom to hide behind.

The NCR weren't perfect, but the Legion was on a whole other level of evil that it was an easy choice who to side with. House's view was also incredibly backwards and echoed the mentality that brought the entire world to war in the first place. Ultimately I went with independance. I thought the NCR could reach its former glory again, and sending them back east to re-focus on stabilising their nation and retaining their model of post-apocalyptic success was the most merciful and good-natured thing I could possibly do.

Also, back on topic. Durr Hurr, Mileena from Mortal Kombat is hawt OLOLOLOLOLOL!! I have no idea how she's that athletic while wearing high-heels.

[A-RoN]

There is nothing wrong with a woman being sexually forward.

As long as she doesn't send mixed signals or sleep around with more than one guy.

[Archaon]

Also, back on topic. Durr Hurr, Mileena from Mortal Kombat is hawt OLOLOLOLOLOL!! I have no idea how she's that athletic while wearing high-heels.

You know, Mileena could have been alright the way she was. Yes, she's wearing skimpy, impractical clothing, but she's doing it to compensate for her sharkface. Her whole schtick is that she appears to be this gorgeous, seductive woman until the veil comes off and then oh god she's eating my head. Her clothing is part of her character (insofar as anyone in Mortal kombat has a character) and it would be diminished without it.

The problem is that every woman in the game is dressed much the same way. The only one not wearing lingerie is Sonya, and even then she gets a vest to show off cleavage/midriff and skintight trousers. If the other women actually covered themselves, Mileena's design would have had more impact. Hell, even if just Kitana and Jade were dressed more conservatively it would have worked better, but nope, gotta see them titties.

As always, the problem is not a woman in a bikini; the problem is every woman in a bikini.

I also want to point out that this doesn't mean you can throw in a footnote about why a character dresses like Mileena and consider it justified. If it's an important part of her character or otherwise relevant to the story, fine. If you just say "The outfit is magic and it protects her" or something, and this is never addressed or even mentioned again, you have a problem. And if every female character in your game just happens to have a good reason to dress like Mileena, you still have a problem. Unless that reason is parody. And even then, it had better be a good parody.

As long as she doesn't send mixed signals or sleep around with more than one guy.

Is that a joke?

Because if it's not a joke, I'm going to assume that "sleeping around" means "cheating on her boyfriend/husband".

And if it doesn't mean that then I don't know what to tell you.

EDIT: Actually, I do know what to tell you. Women having sex with lots of people is not a bad thing either. Unless it's a violation of trust in an already existing relationship. And even then, that just makes her dishonest, not "slutty".

[Cash]

You know, Mileena could have been alright the way she was. Yes, she's wearing skimpy, impractical clothing, but she's doing it to compensate for her sharkface. Her whole schtick is that she appears to be this gorgeous, seductive woman until the veil comes off and then oh god she's eating my head. Her clothing is part of her character (insofar as anyone in Mortal kombat has a character) and it would be diminished without it.

The problem is that every woman in the game is dressed much the same way. The only one not wearing lingerie is Sonya, and even then she gets a vest to show off cleavage/midriff and skintight trousers. If the other women actually covered themselves, Mileena's design would have had more impact. Hell, even if just Kitana and Jade were dressed more conservatively it would have worked better, but nope, gotta see them titties.

I think that having (correction: some) women dressing like that fits the style of the game. The whole point of Mortal Kombat is that everything is over the top, from the crazy amount of blood to the costumes of the fighters. The impact would greater if pretty much every other modern fighting game didn't feel the need to give the women huge boobs and skimpy clothing. Every single fighter should not be going the Mortal Kombat route when it comes to how they show women, or in any other aspect for that matter.

If any game should have scantily clad, large-breasted women (edit: not every female fighter though), it's Mortal Kombat.

EDIT: Actually, I do know what to tell you. Women having sex with lots of people is not a bad thing either. Unless it's a violation of trust in an already existing relationship. And even then, that just makes her dishonest, not "slutty".

I completely agree. Maybe one could say it's not as safe to have sex with lots of people, but not bad.

[Archaon]

I think that having every woman dressing like that fits the style of the game. The whole point of Mortal Kombat is that everything is over the top, from the crazy amount of blood to the costumes of the fighters.

"Over the top" doesn't necessitate T&A. You can still have flashy, memorable outfits without them having to be sexy. I would argue that it's actually counterproductive to do that because it makes every female character look the goddamned same.

Look at the male characters. Look at the variety. You've got Shang Tsung in his mystical sorcerer duds going up against Stryker, who wears a police uniform. Put Raiden next to Jax. Kano next to Kung Lao. You'd never get these guys mixed up. They're all vibrant and unique. Even the ninjas, who used to be straight-up palette swaps, have had some effort put in to make them look different from one another. Smoke and Reptile aren't just grey and green versions of Scorpion anymore.

Now look at the ladies. You've got four women in different-coloured lingerie, and Sonya. And, like I said, Sonya still has her cleavage on full display. Why not give her some combat fatigues? A military uniform? None of the other characters dress like that, so she'd look the part for what she does and be distinct and recognisable.

The only woman who really breaks the mould is Sheeva, and even she wears next to nothing. Although I can kind of forgive that because so does Goro, and I don't get the feeling that she's meant to be sexy.

[Cash]

"Over the top" doesn't necessitate T&A. You can still have flashy, memorable outfits without them having to be sexy. I would argue that it's actually counterproductive to do that because it makes every female character look the goddamned same.

All true. I guess what I'm trying to say is that some sexualized women would fit in the MK world, but you're right, it is counter productive to make every single female fighter in that way. I did say every woman, I should have said some. The way the creators of MK designed the women is silly, they should have put in much more variety.

[Salluz]

I thought we'd be celebrating that there are more female gamers than there have ever been!

1. It's a "man's world", and men are said to be visual. Plus, if games were meant to appeal to women, they would involve lots of talking and socialization, bath/bed/beyond, stealing your friend's man, bitch-slapping combos, and men dancing around in speedos doing humping gestures.
   
2. Everybody is a slut for being a slut, not just women. Women get looked down upon for trying to hide it and appear honest while they are not, and so, she becomes a slut (more like a lying BITCH). Men are sluts because they fucking think it's cool.
   
3. It takes the cake when you play Sonic and you have furry bitches like Rouge the Bat with her jiggle physics, or Mai Shiranui with her skinny build and pointless titties, or (sexism aside) big, dopey characters like Big the Cat that nobody likes because he's fat, slow and stupid, but I could name lots of fat people who are not slow and stupid, and I bet that half of them are on this forum!
   
4. The industry needs to stop bullshitting and just make room for the ladies. If it's a little room, very well, then we'll resort to that. Don't aim to make ten million on a one million dollar project; but then again, it's less enthusing to the developers. Okay, okay, okay, so think harder motherfuckers, think harder! Lara Croft is the shit and so are Alice and Samus!
   

Just keep making badass women and one day, we'll get the message: women are as badass as men, if not more sometimes.

[Brandon Strader]

The woman in Bulletstorm who says she's gonna

is pretty cool

[Tensei]

Bulletstorm is literally what Duke Nukem Forever should have been. The game is surprisingly clever for something that presents itself as a mindless FPS, and in a way even somewhat deconstructs the whole testosterone-fueled male power fantasy: Grayson behaves like a stereotypical male FPS lead, but right at the start his behaviour directly causes most of his crew to get killed, and he basically constantly gets shit from the other characters throughout the game for being a dumbass.

Also yeah, Trishka is a great character. I actually recall reading some article about how her designer had to fight tooth and nail to keep her breast size modest.

[Dexie]

Was she in the new Mortal Kombat? She should have been if she wasn't.

Edit: http://www.giantbomb.com/news/when-passions-flare-lines-are-crossed/4006/

Doesn't matter how many small steps we take forward, when we have idiots like this to help push things back. :/

[Gario]

Edit: http://www.giantbomb.com/news/when-passions-flare-lines-are-crossed/4006/

Doesn't matter how many small steps we take forward, when we have idiots like this to help push things back. :/

Unless I'm mistaken, that guy just defended sexual harassment by saying that's just the way it is. For the sake of my sanity, please tell me I'm mistaken, somehow, because that was just... ugh. I can see defending cursing on a game like that, but really, making gender based insults? That's just fucked up.

[Dexie]

Unless I'm mistaken, that guy just defended sexual harassment by saying that's just the way it is. For the sake of my sanity, please tell me I'm mistaken, somehow, because that was just... ugh. I can see defending cursing on a game like that, but really, making gender based insults? That's just fucked up.

That's exactly what he said.

[Malaki-LEGEND.sys]

Edit: http://www.giantbomb.com/news/when-passions-flare-lines-are-crossed/4006/

Doesn't matter how many small steps we take forward, when we have idiots like this to help push things back. :/

This is exactly the reason why I hate guys like Spooky. If anyone has ever watched some of the streams his team runs that he commentates on, then you know what I'm talking about.

And now back to my hiatus from the thread.

[Bleck]

Rea: Can I get my Street Fighter without sexual harassment?

Bakhtanians: You can’t. You can’t because they’re one and the same thing. This is a community that’s, you know, 15 or 20 years old, and the sexual harassment is part of a culture

absolutely stunning levels of stupidity

[Melbu Frahma]

“This is a community that’s, you know, 15 or 20-years-old and the sexual harassment is part of a culture,” said competitive fighting game player Aris "Aris" Bakhtanians on a recent live stream for Capcom's Cross Assault show, “and if you remove that from the fighting game community, it’s not the fighting game community.”

Disgusting.

[EC2151]

The NCR weren't perfect, but the Legion was on a whole other level of evil that it was an easy choice who to side with. House's view was also incredibly backwards and echoed the mentality that brought the entire world to war in the first place.

While it is more or less easy for us to choose between NCR and the Legion, I feel like those guys are too easily painted as the "bad guys" of New Vegas, when it's a little bit more complex. Heck, Caesar used to be a Follower of the Apocalypse and still respected their ideals, which is kind of strange considering what the Legion believed. Yeah, Lanius was koo-koo-cachoo (but badass), but the reality is that while the Legion was a stone-age society, the Mojave was a stone-age, dog-eat-dog world. However, Caesar thought he had a chance to remake a world without strife and conflict and war if every single type of difference was erased; while it's a pretty barbarous way of dealing with things it's not without some benefits for people living in the lands controlled by the Legion (Legion lands were virtually safe from any raiders etc.). [[They're probably more easily painted as the "bad-guys" because there is only one ending you take where Lanius is NOT the final boss, and that's pro-Legion.]]

House himself had the business know-how to bring the world back to a semblance of Old-World glory, but it would be a glory that is unscrupulous and unprincipled (he had a vested interest in keeping the rest of the region unsafe and unstable, as it would make New Vegas more profitable and lucrative) - so while he had the ability to revive the west, it would be an ability suited solely towards his own capitalistic interests (which kind of made him a bigger asshole to me because he didn't believe in anything; at least the Legion had a [maligned] vision for humanity).

NCR, while it probably had the most decent people in its faction (though, humorously, most decent people in Mojave didn't want anything to do with NCR), still had strayed quite a ways from Tandi's presidency. Kimball was more of a war-hawk, and the Mojave was only really seen as a means for enriching the West (most of the electricity at Hoover powered California). Its prison system was woefully ineffective, and its expansionist impulses left its military stretched thin.

--EXECUTE "END SIDE-TANGENT"--

While I would hesitate to say that that moron in that SFvT article speaks for the fighting community at large, it might be worth pondering whether his views are indicative of gaming culture, California culture, internet culture, or what-have-you. His line of reasoning "this isn't North Korea people can say what they want" makes me think he's particularly influenced by the latter, with its emphasis on "everything is a joke or opinion and those are always ok as long as they don't hurt people which they never do", but I might just be thinking too hard about it (wouldn't be the first time!).

Though the continual entreaties to keep Street Fighter from becoming Starcraft are as mind-boggling as they are hilarious.

[AngelCityOutlaw]

This part...

These are people, we’re in America, man, this isn’t North Korea. We can say what we want. People get emotional.

This mentality is the source of so many problems. Usually people who say, "this isn't North Korea, Iran, etc." don't know shit about those countries and the people.

[Melbu Frahma]

Agreed. All other things aside, the justification that "we're in America, man. ...We can say what we want," is completely fallacious. Yes, the First Amendment protects 99.99999% of speech. But there's some stuff that isn't protected - for example, "bomb" on an airplane or "fire" in a theater, or purposefully incendiary language such as racist or sexist comments designed to inflame certain responses. Someone didn't pay attention in his Civics classes.

[Tensei]

The "FREE SPEECH" defense doesn't really hold up here at all IMO. I don't think anybody's saying that he's doing something illegal, they're simply (and justifiably) calling him a misogynist fucknut, which would also fall under free speech.

News like this makes me happy that I never got into fighting games.

[A.COE]

I feel like those guys are too easily painted as the "bad guys" of New Vegas, when it's a little bit more complex. Heck, Caesar used to be a Follower of the Apocalypse and still respected their ideals, which is kind of strange considering what the Legion believed.

Man, I love this debate. Makes me itch for Fallout 4.

I based a lot of my actions and opinions around the fact that the world was still recovering 200 years on from the most horrific tragedy in history. I see the Fallout series as a commentary on humanity, and I found that Arcade Gannon summed up Caesar pretty well:

"What's the point of surviving the war? Why did the founders of the Followers crawl their way out of vaults to bring knowledge back to the wasteland? So we could act like the last two thousand years didn't happen? Play dress up so we can fight ancient wars all over again? No way is he getting away with this. I'm not letting it happen. You're not letting it happen."

All in all, it's a very interesting point of discussion. I just hope the real world never has to make a choice between people like House, Kimball or Sallow...

P.S., Cass is awesome.