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djpretzel

Previous FF6 Kickstarter *cancelled* BUT new one in the works!!

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You misunderstand me. We don't have all the music done for the project. We don't even have an exact track count. So, even if we did limit the # of albums printed (which we did, and are going to) it wouldn't help with nailing down licensing figures since you ALSO need to know how much music there is!

I noticed on the Shizz people hating because we "didn't license" the music, but again, to be clear, we were actively considering licensing options and wouldn't have been able to execute on anything anyway without having a final track or album count.

Ah, I see.

However, that beg's one last question; if you didn't have the music done, and thus had no way to try and get a licensing agreement, why put it in as a major draw for the kickstarter in the first place? I know it was a great reward, but didn't it feel like putting a bull's eye on the fund raiser, given Squenix's past actions?

...

OK, so there are technically two questions there.

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Larry debunked all of the speculation during our podcast today (starting 40 minutes in.) Everything assumed here, on The Shizz, or anywhere else on the internet is unfounded and misguided. To quote: "I've seen a ton of speculation in the thread[...]and none of it has been accurate." Let's just relax and see what happens.

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Ah, I see.

However, that beg's one last question; if you didn't have the music done, and thus had no way to try and get a licensing agreement, why put it in as a major draw for the kickstarter in the first place? I know it was a great reward, but didn't it feel like putting a bull's eye on the fund raiser, given Squenix's past actions?

...

OK, so there are technically two questions there.

Kickstarters are regularly done for projects that are still in-progress; some aren't even in production yet. FF6 was (and is) pretty far along. Not to mention we literally wouldn't have been able to do one (nor would it have made sense to do one) without a project associated. Given OCR's twelve-year history of earning no profit, being run by a staff of volunteers, and being endorsed (either implicitly or explicitly) by numerous game developers, publishers and professional composers, we didn't expect any problems.

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Larry debunked all of the speculation during our podcast today (starting 40 minutes in.) Everything assumed here, on The Shizz, or anywhere else on the internet is unfounded and misguided. To quote: "I've seen a ton of speculation in the thread[...]and none of it has been accurate." Let's just relax and see what happens.

It would be helpful if there was a way to skip to 40 minutes in without downloading the whole thing... or if there was a transcript... or if Larry could share the information here. :-o

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It would be helpful if there was a way to skip to 40 minutes in without downloading the whole thing... or if there was a transcript... or if Larry could share the information here. :-o

I didn't say anything new; I basically just said everyone's been speculating, and I haven't seen anything accurate yet, so

folks should just wait for things to play out. When there's more to report either way, the community will know.

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It would be helpful if there was a way to skip to 40 minutes in without downloading the whole thing... or if there was a transcript... or if Larry could share the information here. :-o

The player on the page should allow you to skip around pretty easily once it's cached far enough into the file; you don't even have to wait for it to download the whole thing. I just did it with no problem.

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Lesson learned, i guess

Next time, ask the license holders before starting such a project.

From own experiences at Game-Art-HQ.com and Capcom i know thats damn important or else trouble awaits ya

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I'm gonna be honest, all the "Why didn't OCR get a license, how stupid are they?" people are really pissing me off. Not least of which because it should be (and arguably is) legal to create derivative works, but because this applies equally to any other remix. Seriously, how many of you remixers have talked to Square-Enix or any other IP holder before submitting a remix?

If you think the fact that they were raising money off of this makes it somehow different, well, legally, you're incorrect. The law in many cases doesn't really differentiate between giving a way a derivative work or selling it. Add to that the fact that OCR holds fundraisers (which was exactly what this was) based on the love of the music on the site, and it means that this Kickstarter is exactly the same as all the other fundraisers (differing only in the tools used to offer it). So, anyone saying "OCR should have to get a license, the original artists should be respected," and yet isn't doing that for their own work or demanding that for the individual remix submissions is acting fairly hypocritically in my view. IMO, everything OCR has done is completely legal and above the board. Of course, "legal" doesn't mean you're immune from anything when dealing with a massive corporation.

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I'm gonna be honest, all the "Why didn't OCR get a license, how stupid are they?" people are really pissing me off. Not least of which because it should be (and arguably is) legal to create derivative works, but because this applies equally to any other remix. Seriously, how many of you remixers have talked to Square-Enix or any other IP holder before submitting a remix?

If you think the fact that they were raising money off of this makes it somehow different, well, legally, you're incorrect. The law in many cases doesn't really differentiate between giving a way a derivative work or selling it. Add to that the fact that OCR holds fundraisers (which was exactly what this was) based on the love of the music on the site, and it means that this Kickstarter is exactly the same as all the other fundraisers (differing only in the tools used to offer it). So, anyone saying "OCR should have to get a license, the original artists should be respected," and yet isn't doing that for their own work or demanding that for the individual remix submissions is acting fairly hypocritically in my view. IMO, everything OCR has done is completely legal and above the board. Of course, "legal" doesn't mean you're immune from anything when dealing with a massive corporation.

Completely agree, I believe that very few people have asked if they could remix songs.

On a side note I have (and I know many others have) donated to OCRemix before. The only difference here is that Sony saw the amount of money OCRemix would be getting. That is the only difference.

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I'm gonna be honest, all the "Why didn't OCR get a license, how stupid are they?" people are really pissing me off. Not least of which because it should be (and arguably is) legal to create derivative works, but because this applies equally to any other remix. Seriously, how many of you remixers have talked to Square-Enix or any other IP holder before submitting a remix?

If you think the fact that they were raising money off of this makes it somehow different, well, legally, you're incorrect. The law in many cases doesn't really differentiate between giving a way a derivative work or selling it. Add to that the fact that OCR holds fundraisers (which was exactly what this was) based on the love of the music on the site, and it means that this Kickstarter is exactly the same as all the other fundraisers (differing only in the tools used to offer it). So, anyone saying "OCR should have to get a license, the original artists should be respected," and yet isn't doing that for their own work or demanding that for the individual remix submissions is acting fairly hypocritically in my view. IMO, everything OCR has done is completely legal and above the board. Of course, "legal" doesn't mean you're immune from anything when dealing with a massive corporation.

Money changing hands, changes everything. With Square-Enix, they've shown they're more than willing to shut down a free project if they feel one of their IPs is threatened, and the staff at OCR was sporting a FFVI album as a reward for donating to the kickstarter fund. That got the attention of someone, and the end result was Square-Enix hitting the proverbial pause button on the kickstarter.

If you require money to be exchanged for something, you're likely to be seen as having sold that something. There was monetary gain made, regardless of why (charity, fund drive, etc.). At that point, a company is far more likely to intervene on behalf of their IP, than if the something in question was being freely handed out. That's why when money's involved, many will approach the owner of the IP and ask to have permission, in writing, to do what they had in mind. "Weird Al" does it all the time, even though he's not required to thanks to the rules behind parody works. He does it to cover his ass legally, and out of respect for the original artists. And when it comes to remixes and money changing hands, especially when the source of the project is a relatively well known one (like OCR), it's a good practice to adhere to.

zircon kindly explained the hows and whys when it comes to getting a licensing agreement with Square-Enix for the kickstarter. Yes, some feel that if they didn't have one, the album shouldn't have been included, due to the way Square-Enix has behaved in the past with IP protection; they feel it was a mistake to go ahead with the album reward without such an agreement in place. But those of us who feel that way, and have made remixes that are freely available here or elsewhere, aren't being hypocritical in the least. Why? Because the site hosting remixes for free, and someone making a remix and putting it up for people to listen to for free, is not the same as the site/person handing out a remix/album in exchange for money (be it selling outright, or as a gift for donating). The former will likely be overlooked. The latter, stands a much greater chance of ending with a C&D order from the IP owner.

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Next time, ask the license holders before starting such a project.

This isn't OCR's first album project. There's like over 30.

based on the love of the music on the site, and it means that this Kickstarter is exactly the same as all the other fundraisers (differing only in the tools used to offer it).

Kickstarter's not a "cover our server expenses" fundraiser site, dude. It's for people that need money to fund putting their "innovative ideas!" into reality; Ouya is a perfect example. It's to "kick start" an idea/invention/whatever.

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Money changing hands, changes everything. .

But money has already changed hands. Why do you think the people have donated to OCR in the past? Does it have nothing to do with the remixes of copyrighted works hosted there? Of course it does, it would be absurd to suggest otherwise.

So I suppose you could say that OCR should have asked for a license just because of the level of scrutiny when compared to the other remixes (although I dislike that you call them "free," since it's implying the FFVI remixes weren't. That's false. The FFVI remixes were to be posted completely free as well). But saying that there was some sort of legal or moral imperative for a license in this case that didn't exist for standalone remixes or previous albums is flat out unsupportable, in my opinion. If a license is required for this project, it's required for every single remix on the site. And although I guess it's nice if Square-Enix grants them permission to continue the Kickstarter, it's a fairly worrying precedent since they (or any other IP holder) could easily require that for all remixes in general.

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Kickstarter's not a "cover our server expenses" fundraiser site, dude. It's for people that need money to fund putting their "innovative ideas!" into reality; Ouya is a perfect example. It's to "kick start" an idea/invention/whatever.

Yeah, yeah. Kickstarter has evolved. Obviously this one existed mostly to cover expenses for the FFVI physical album, but if you think none of that money was going to go to expenses for OCR at-large, I'd say you're fooling yourself. And yes, there is precedence for this, the most obvious example being the Penny-Arcade Kickstarter which is apparently a yearly fundraiser to cover business expenses and which got a big ol' thumbs up from the Kickstarter admins. It's my feeling and experience that Kickstarter doesn't really care too much what you do with it as long as you're not breaking laws or making them look bad, especially since they make money off of all successful Kickstarters.

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So I suppose you could say that OCR should have asked for a license just because of the level of scrutiny when compared to the other remixes (although I dislike that you call them "free," since it's implying the FFVI remixes weren't. That's false. The FFVI remixes were to be posted completely free as well).

Square hasn't shut down the FFVI project entirely - jut the kickstarter. There's no need to imply that the FFVI album won't be released for free on this site, as that's currently not true.

Obviously this one existed mostly to cover expenses for the FFVI physical album, but if you think none of that money was going to go to expenses for OCR at-large, I'd say you're fooling yourself.

No one said otherwise - it was stated in the kickstarter itself that some of the extra proceeds would go back into the site (and other proceeds would allow the site to give out better prizes, like the FF7 printing).

But saying that there was some sort of legal or moral imperative for a license in this case that didn't exist for standalone remixes or previous albums is flat out unsupportable, in my opinion. If a license is required for this project, it's required for every single remix on the site. And although I guess it's nice if Square-Enix grants them permission to continue the Kickstarter, it's a fairly worrying precedent since they (or any other IP holder) could easily require that for all remixes in general.

The only precedent being set by this incident as of yet is that Square-Enix isn't allowing people to use their IP to push a donation drive, in the worst case scenario (that is, if OCR is forced to close off it's KS). There is no lean against the site or the remixes that people continue to produce, as of yet, nor is there reason to believe that this will be the case. You're creating a slippery slope, with your reasoning.

Remember, Square-Enix is pushing against the donations for the printing of this album, not the release that will be on this site. They are two separate things.

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Square hasn't shut down the FFVI project entirely - jut the kickstarter. There's no need to imply that the FFVI album won't be released for free on this site, as that's currently not true.

No one said otherwise - it was stated in the kickstarter itself that some of the extra proceeds would go back into the site (and other proceeds would allow the site to give out better prizes, like the FF7 printing).

The only precedent being set by this incident as of yet is that Square-Enix isn't allowing people to use their IP to push a donation drive, in the worst case scenario (that is, if OCR is forced to close off it's KS). There is no lean against the site or the remixes that people continue to produce, as of yet, nor is there reason to believe that this will be the case. You're creating a slippery slope, with your reasoning.

Remember, Square-Enix is pushing against the donations for the printing of this album, not the release that will be on this site. They are two separate things.

I think this, yet again, adequately explains why they didn't want speculation. Plus, didn't Larry answer all this in yesterday's KNGI?

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I... didn't listen to him on KNGI.

If he did mention anything, then I'm completely out of touch. Erm, probably should go listen to that myself then. :oops:

Sorry, I'll remain speculate-free until more word comes from the DjP and Andy. Disregard my last post, lol.

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Here's my speculation:

tumblr_m6tu22yikh1rxukuoo2_400.jpg

But seriously, I don't really understand why you guys can't tell us the reason for the shut down. All we know is that Square Enix is involved somehow with it. I can understand not wanting to talk about the future of the kickstarter until it's set in stone but isn't their reason known to you? The update on the main page sounds like it is. You've said the speculation hasn't gotten anything right. So they didn't put a cork in it because it made so much money, or they thought you were making money off it, or you didn't get a license? Those seem like legitimate reasons (albeit paranoid reasons) for SE to stop it but apparently they're wrong. So why then? I really don't understand why you can't tell us that.

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Well, you said it yourself:

I can understand not wanting to talk about the future of the kickstarter until it's set in stone

Then we hope you, and everyone else, will remain understanding. When there's an actual update, so WE know what the status is, everyone will know. :-)

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Well, you said it yourself:

Then we hope you, and everyone else, will remain understanding. When there's an actual update, so WE know what the status is, everyone will know. :-)

If it's taking this long for them to give us the full picture, it's most likely that both sides are still at the table. This is a good thing if that is the case. What happens now will certainly dictate relations with the big companies in the future. So, I say that you all can take your time working things out.

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didn't Larry answer all this in yesterday's KNGI?

Why should that matter? Conspiracies and incorrect speculation are way more fun!

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Well, why they shut down the kickstarter isn't really the future but the past (I guess that means you still don't know exactly why?). Regardless of whether this can be worked out or not, I can't wait to get my hands on more beautiful free ReMixes! :D

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I... didn't listen to him on KNGI.

If he did mention anything, then I'm completely out of touch. Erm, probably should go listen to that myself then. :oops:

Sorry, I'll remain speculate-free until more word comes from the DjP and Andy. Disregard my last post, lol.

I was saying your post was good, referring to how you pointed out the inaccuracies and misconceptions in the other post. Guess that's not how it sounded... :oops:

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But money has already changed hands. Why do you think the people have donated to OCR in the past? Does it have nothing to do with the remixes of copyrighted works hosted there? Of course it does, it would be absurd to suggest otherwise.

Do you need to donate to OCR to get the remixes hosted here? No, you don't. They're free day in, day out. The donations in the past (I believe April is the donation month for the last few years) are to the site, and the site alone. You got nothing for donating, outside of the knowledge that you helped OCR pay for its running costs; no rewards, no gifts, nothing. This fundraiser is vastly different, because the physical album is gotten for a $50 donation to the kickstarter. Sure, the physical album would have been given out for free at various functions that OCR attended later on, but it still would have been printed using the money from the fund drive. And THAT is the point of contention in the eyes of some. Not the MP3s that will eventually be hosted on the site, the physical album, and how it was paid for. That's where licensing comes in to cover the butts of all those involved with the physical album's release.

So I suppose you could say that OCR should have asked for a license just because of the level of scrutiny when compared to the other remixes (although I dislike that you call them "free," since it's implying the FFVI remixes weren't. That's false. The FFVI remixes were to be posted completely free as well). But saying that there was some sort of legal or moral imperative for a license in this case that didn't exist for standalone remixes or previous albums is flat out unsupportable, in my opinion. If a license is required for this project, it's required for every single remix on the site. And although I guess it's nice if Square-Enix grants them permission to continue the Kickstarter, it's a fairly worrying precedent since they (or any other IP holder) could easily require that for all remixes in general.

- When I've been talking about the fundraiser/FFVI/licensing issue, I've been talking about the physical album. Not the MP3s and other digital media that would have been put on the OCR website, the physical album that was going to be produced using money from the kickstarter. Nothing more. If you thought otherwise, then my apologies for not making that clearer.

- To the best of my knowledge, the previous albums were never sold, nor were they a selling point for a fundraiser. They only got released on the website (and mirroring sites/torrents), free for everyone to download, and that was that. As such, no licensing was required because no money was required to get an item/download.

- Square-Enix, and indeed, any IP holder whose music has been remixed, would be perfectly within their rights to request that OCR no longer host music based on their respective IPs. So if Konami decided that they didn't want Castlevania remixes on here anymore, they could draw up a C&D or what have you, and tell djp to remove the music in question, or face legal consequences. Maybe they'd win in court, maybe djp would win. But it's Konami's IP being used as a source material, and they can defend it however they wish (regardless of how frivolous it comes across).

OCR continues to host free remixes through the good graces of IP holders. In fact, those who make remixes in general are able to put them out there for free for the same reason. Not because they're untouchable by law, but because the companies (for the moment) don't really have an issue with it as long as it's free. But when money starts being handed over to gain a physical item filled with remixes, or to download an MP3 remix, then things get hairier, and the chances of lawyers getting involved goes up. That's when it gets easier for a company to see it as people making money off of their IP, without their permission. Then you potentially get projects being shut down, and small children weeping openly in the streets as dismay fills their hearts.

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This isn't OCR's first album project. There's like over 30.

Thanks for the Info, i know OCR since 7 or 8 years.

And yes, this is the first Album Project where OCR used Kickstarter, thats what i meant

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All the best to the ocremix guys working on this-- I'm rooting for you guys, and I really hope you get all of those pledges reinstated or otherwise given back to you from whatever state of limbo they may be in at the moment. No matter the outcome, I'll be making sure that ocremix gets my long overdue donation for the countless hours of enjoyment and education I've recieved here for free.

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