IsolinearMoogle Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 Foxx: I would disagree that the asking price of the album is $50. When I first saw the announcement, I thought they were so clear about the album being free on the site that it would hurt their donations. I can definitely see your reasoning since you don't get the "official" hard copy without donating the $50, but I think it really is open to some interpretation — I am probably going to download the files anyway and put my discs on a shelf until I die, so truthfully the hard copy album doesn't hold a great deal of value for me. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Cash Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 Semantics, isn't that this entire discussion? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FoxxDragon Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 Come on Moogle. you said you disagree the album is $50, then you say "but the asking price was $50" the fact the music is going to be free is irrelevant in context of the kickstarter- which is the entire argument. The KS isn't about making the album happen. the KS is about making hard copies OF the album happen. with a side benefit of supporting OCR. Anyway- seriously, Zircon answered it. If you guys really want to go around and around about definitions of profit and what this is, I'm gonna bow out. But please remember how fiercely you argue those points, the next time a non-OCR album comes up. Because in my experience, the tables flip on anything other than OCR. Just. Remember. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
IsolinearMoogle Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 Well, I didn't say "but the asking price was $50" but you're right, we're just talking in circles here. I may or may not contribute to a non-OCR album that uses similar fundraising tactics, but I will defend with my keyboard's very life that album's right to do so. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gollgagh Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 wait before you go, Foxx, lemme see if I got this right basically what happened was that staff were so focused on setting up different rewards for the various contribution levels that they totally failed to consider (or, considering what zircon said, dismissed entirely) that THE selling point of all of the rewards would a copy of the physical CD itself and thus set its price level above what you would consider sane Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FoxxDragon Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 wait before you go, Foxx, lemme see if I got this rightbasically what happened was that staff were so focused on setting up different rewards for the various contribution levels that they totally failed to consider (or, considering what zircon said, dismissed entirely) that THE selling point of all of the rewards would a copy of the physical CD itself and thus set its price level above what you would consider sane That seems pretty reasonable. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Shadablade Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 So, first time poster, though long time listener and enjoyer of the efforts of the many talented artists that have contributed over the years to make this such a great music site. I dont know any of the people her personally, though ive met various people at various anime conventions, concerts like Distant Worlds, and those type of venues. They seem to honestly love what they do for the sake of doing it and not a "fly by night" situation and for that im glad. Two days ago when the kick starter first popped up, I was giddy as a kid again, FF6 being my fave of the series. I plastered it all over my facebook, put the word out to friends (who im sure in turn put it out as well) and then plunked my $50 down for the (at the time) 4 disc set. I did this knowing full well that: A> I could get it for free with out the frills... B> If I waited long enough, I could gotten it for free and someone would have posted the "frills" somewhere online. C> That if the album went "crazy" (which in this case it appears to have) that OCR would stand to take in a lot more money than they initially thought. Let me tell you just a small tik about me (so as im not some nameless 12 yr old bla bla). Im a 35 yr old anime fan and gamer who maintains a 70k /yr salary and I like to collect things related to said hobbies. Sometimes its trivial things, gatchpons, and gundams, Other times I kick in to stuff like this I think worthy. I still have the "Project Majestic Mix" from KFSS studios that I kicked in for with a bunch of others. So when I saw the option to have a physical "thing" in my collection, and not just a list of mp3 / flac files on a server drive. I didnt hesitate, And I hoped that the KS would fully fund (which it did SOUNDLY). You know what? Good for you OCR! Frankly if after they fulfilled the obligations setforth by their objective (making the album) the the leftover, hell they could do what they wanted to with it and that seems to be whats either pissing or scaring people. You know who else take in a TON of cash based on "non-profit" claims and spends it crazily? The church, but thats for another time. I dont think the integrity of the OCR staff is so thin that they are gonna friv this extra money away...they know who made such and outpouring possible, the fans...And im pretty sure the fans knew damn well what was involved when they pledged to support OCR's album. So in short, if its none of your business on what gets done with the money, where it goes, or how its budgeted, get your nose out of it! If you were this concerned (especially over $50) dont donate, and wait for the free posting that they already said would be available. Who knows, that extra cash they could decide the make the album of an even higher quality visually and audibly. Cant people just appreciate the work these peps are trying to put out for the masses? Think SE is gonna do it? Riiiiight...and hows that FF7 remake coming? Gratz on the kickstarter OCR, Sure you'll put things to good use and blow peoples socks off. /steps off soapbox. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Fishy Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 You know who else take in a TON of cash based on "non-profit" claims and spends it crazily? The church, but thats for another time. I like your style. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon Strader Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 I'm just here to post a couple facts to end a couple lines of debate, after which you can carry on in other facets of the conversation. Just trying to prevent an endless loop. Profit: A financial gain, esp. the difference between the amount earned and the amount spent in buying, operating, or producing something. I.E., the difference between the cost of printing FF6 and what remains = profit. The level the CD needed to be priced at to fulfill the Kickstarter = $15. If all (then) 1,000 copies of the album had been backed at $15, that would have fulfilled the $15,000 they were seeking, in addition to the other reward tiers which would have continued to excel the kickstarter to the financial heights it has met anyway. There is no way to rationalize $50 as the "most feasible" pricing option. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OceansAndrew Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 The level the CD needed to be priced at to fulfill the Kickstarter = $15. If all (then) 1,000 copies of the album had been backed at $15, that would have fulfilled the $15,000 they were seeking, in addition to the other reward tiers which would have continued to excel the kickstarter to the financial heights it has met anyway. There is no way to rationalize $50 as the "most feasible" pricing option. That's fine, but then we would have had to completely meet the absolute maximum numbers to succeed, and even then, there are no copies left to hand out at conventions and such. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Stealthtank Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 Okay, I shall wade into this. Whoo I love the internet. Profit: A financial gain, esp. the difference between the amount earned and the amount spent in buying, operating, or producing something. I.E., the difference between the cost of printing FF6 and what remains = profit. Hmm... profit has a few differing meanings but that works; income minus expenditure. I think what is causing consternation is that it has a capitalistic nuance in its meaning. OC Remix is a non-profit organization (nobody lives off it) therefore it causes ambiguity to apply that term to its finances. Consider a term with equivalent meaning but with a different perception: surplus. In this particular situation it may be more appropriate to use this term just like governments do. Unless of course people think that OC Remix is not a non-profit organization. Can't help there. The level the CD needed to be priced at to fulfill the Kickstarter = $15. If all (then) 1,000 copies of the album had been backed at $15, that would have fulfilled the $15,000 they were seeking, in addition to the other reward tiers which would have continued to excel the kickstarter to the financial heights it has met anyway.OC Remix is intending to print 1,500 copies actually. Apparently the reward limit listed in the project home is an unfixable mistake. Other than that... I think people are not 100% sure what the purpose of the fundraiser is. I can't speak for the staff, and correct me if I'm wrong please, but the money is for the physical production plus the distribution of the albums to those who gave enough money in addition to supporting OC Remix with its ongoing costs.Let's do some analysis. The FF6 album is going to be released free digitally. I make the assumption that it still would be released if the Kickstarter project never reached it's goal. It'd probably be a little "worse" but we'd still be able to listen to it eventually. There would however be no physical albums for anyone unless OC Remix decided to produce some at its own cost. Of course the fundraiser has been a run away success so OC Remix will be producing all 1,500 (because Kickstarter is all-or-nothing) albums at the close of the fundraiser (August 9). This is where it gets a little wonky. Had all its backers pledged less than $50, the amount required to receive a physical album, OC Remix would still have ended up with 1,500 albums in its possession. They would ship some to the project artists and that's it. That would mean that shipping costs would come nowhere near the estimated $6,500 allocated (unless the companies gouge the hell outta them) according to the funding breakdown posted by zircon. So this project is in a strange situation. Its target funding was heavily determined by the reward system, something highly variable in nature. Even if they had just raised exactly $15,000, and nobody contributed enough for a physical album, OC Remix would have a significant surplus resulting from this Kickstarter project. I'm not a staff member so everything I wrote could be wrong. Sorry in that case. Most importantly there will be 1,500 albums made with a varying number distributed right? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nordlys Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 While waiting for my account to get activated, I've been watching this discussion, and it seems that it's rooted to a couple of questions. Why is this kickstarter okay, but the Vampire Variations deal not? I'd just like to say that, beyond potential copyright issues of which OC ReMix has always been in limbo, I have no qualms about either way of funding the physical albums. It is quite obvious that the kickstarter was meant to earn more than $15 000 from the start, but no one really knew what would happen, including this long winded discussion. But the same points keep being made. What is the excess money going to? It is going to the OCR account, which will be used for the site, contests, events, etc. They've already stated they've done so with past donations, sometimes ending up with a loss. What would the Vampire Variations excess money be used for? Note that I already said that I don't mind if it would be pocketed, but if that's the case, there's your difference. Why would any of the involved bother pocketing the money when it's said to go back to OCR? Divided, it's hardly worth anything. It'd ruin the reputation of the higher-ups, and I imagine this site has actually been beneficial to their careers. It is their best interest to keep OCR and their own reputation up there. Why were the maths so poor? Well, I wonder. The kickstarter itself said 1 000 copies in some places, while it actually meant to say 1 500 copies all over. In reality, if all slots are filled, it will take more than 1 500 copies, so the people who worked this out obviously didn't think it through properly. Being unsure of whether all would sell or not is not an issue with kickstarter, as it's an all-or-nothing system. It's clear that they wanted to go over the limit for the aforementioned reasons (OCR funding), as well as having more studio time. However, I wouldn't be hard-pressed to believe that the immense excess funding is partly due to poor maths combined with lack of foresight that it would all sell out. Forgetting about the silent majority of OCR listeners, they probably wanted it to be made even if it only sold 300 copies (which would be the limit for the all-or-nothing system). I believe the main point is that they've obviously discussed how to bring the excess money back to the community, as you can see with the updates. This was only possible because the kickstarter is doing as well as it is. I personally have no qualms about donating to OCR, having been a listener for many years already. Doing so for a project like this makes it even more enticing. From how I know the people involved, I seriously doubt they'd be aiming for any shady business. It seems a lot of the complaints is merely a misdirected retaliation for the Vampire Variations situation. I don't even know who spoke up against that. This album will be free, and you don't have to pay a single cent for it. The cost of getting a limited physical is not just for the album itself, but for the project as a whole. Do you think it costs them $500 to have an extra person invited on Skype? If it's too high for you, sure you may complain, but in the end you don't need this. Offering it for a cheaper price would devalue it as a limited product. It's for especially interested. Even most students can afford $50 if they really want it. I should know. Now, a couple of questions I have, related to the kickstarter. - The $250 reward offers two signed albums amongst other things. The $1 000 reward offers "ten bonus copies" of the album, plus previous rewards. Does this mean 2 signed albums plus 10 regular albums, or 2 and 8, or 10 signed, or what? (Semantics) - The $500 reward offers a granted remix request. What are the rules for such a request? Is a medley from a single game allowed, for instance? Or will each request just be reviewed later on? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djpretzel Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 Now, a couple of questions I have, related to the kickstarter. - The $250 reward offers two signed albums amongst other things. The $1 000 reward offers "ten bonus copies" of the album, plus previous rewards. Does this mean 2 signed albums plus 10 regular albums, or 2 and 8, or 10 signed, or what? (Semantics) - The $500 reward offers a granted remix request. What are the rules for such a request? Is a medley from a single game allowed, for instance? Or will each request just be reviewed later on? First off, thanks for your measured response. Secondly, in terms of us not thinking it through enough - hindsight is always 20/20, we did think a lot of it through, this is our first go-round, we've all got full-time jobs, etc. I don't feel like there was a significant failure or inexplicable lack of foresight on our part, but what do I know. Quick answers: For the $1000 reward, we will ask backers what they prefer regarding signing. If they want each copy signed, that's fine. It's twelve copies total - two from the $500 reward plus ten bonus copies. I think our general guideline here is just gonna be "within reason" - a few songs from one game, or a mashup of two songs from two games seeems reasonable to me. A ten-song mega-medley, or a mashup of 4 songs from 4 games, does not. Generally speaking, backers should look to existing mixes on OCR as examples of what we would consider as reasonable, as ideally we'd want to post the end result to the site. A final note on Vampire Variations... It occurs to me that what some people might be waiting for is an apology, and if that's the case, I'm definitely sorry if you've feel that I or OCR have been misleading or unclear. However, I don't believe we've been unfair. Here's the difference between OCR and any other entity that I'm aware of, be it an individual or a group of individuals: We have a public content policy that specifically prohibits us from profiting: http://ocremix.org/info/Content_Policy "This license explicitly prohibits OverClocked ReMix from distributing submitted materials for for-profit endeavors. All revenue generated by advertising presented in the context of submitted materials will be used for costs directly associated with the operation and promotion of OverClocked ReMix. We worked with the community to draft this policy We have transparent revision history for this policy (since it's in our wiki) We are bound by this policy to the exact same extent that artists are We are proud of this policy and believe it reflects our 12-year history & supports our future goals Official OCR albums - like Final Fantasy 6: Balance & Ruin - are covered by this policy, so we KNOW that they are limited in this regard. Anyone else... who the hell knows? This is part of why we WANT albums to be official in the first place. I like to be a trusting person, I really do, but promises made on forums are not nearly so clear, or binding. We have tied our own hands behind our backs for a reason, and we have no reason to trust anyone who hasn't done so themselves. So if you're looking for an explanation as to why there is a disparity in our advice, or our trust levels, there you have it. I apologize for not making this point clear earlier, which may have saved some time, but I've been sick all week, my brain's been fuzzy, and the kickstarter has taken a lot of our free time. This, however, is the single biggest & best explanation I can provide. I stand behind it 100%. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Avatar of Justice Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 Is OCR a registered nonprofit? Is OCR any kind of registered entity beyond a registered website? With all this money being donated to Kickstarter, it would be nice for people to know these kinds of things. Being a nonprofit guarantees a certain level of transparency so people could say "Oh, 85% of OCR's income is used for the website." As opposed to "Oh, 15% of OCR's income is used for the website and 85% is used for strippers." Also seems useful for the long-term viability of an OCR that could survive should something happen to djp. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Melbu Frahma Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 - The $500 reward offers a granted remix request. What are the rules for such a request? Is a medley from a single game allowed, for instance? Or will each request just be reviewed later on? That actually reminds me of a question I had concerning the $500 prize. The "custom remixes" - will they be given to the donator only, or will they be shared with the community? EDIT: Whoops, just saw the response DjP posted while I was in mid-post - darn Charter guys. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djpretzel Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 Is OCR a registered nonprofit? Is OCR any kind of registered entity beyond a registered website? With all this money being donated to Kickstarter, it would be nice for people to know these kinds of things. Being a nonprofit guarantees a certain level of transparency so people could say "Oh, 85% of OCR's income is used for the website." As opposed to "Oh, 15% of OCR's income is used for the website and 85% is used for strippers." Also seems useful for the long-term viability of an OCR that could survive should something happen to djp. OCR is currently a sole-proprietorship LLC. We are not-for-profit in the sense that we are bound by the terms of our own content policy, mentioned above. At present, if I die OCR would be treated like anything else I own and would pass to my spouse, and then next of kin, etc. according w/ Virginia state law. I'm thinking most people donating don't care about any of that, actually, but since you asked... At some point in the future we may change our legal entity and/or construct a formal will that has more detail, but you know, I kinda like to spend MOST of my time posting mixes and improving the website... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OceansAndrew Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 Is OCR a registered nonprofit? Is OCR any kind of registered entity beyond a registered website? With all this money being donated to Kickstarter, it would be nice for people to know these kinds of things. Being a nonprofit guarantees a certain level of transparency so people could say "Oh, 85% of OCR's income is used for the website." As opposed to "Oh, 15% of OCR's income is used for the website and 85% is used for strippers." Also seems useful for the long-term viability of an OCR that could survive should something happen to djp. ... OverClocked ReMix, LLC is a sole proprietorship in my name. I take all aspects of its operation VERY seriously... so seriously, in fact, that it's usually the opposite scenario - we're being criticized for too MUCH planning, management, policy, etc. It sometimes seems like you can't win, either way. At any rate, all OC ReMix funds are managed in a separate savings account & tracked separately from my personal finances, for clear auditability. Likewise, I've got my own personal PayPal account that is completely separate from the OC ReMix PayPal account. It's disappointing after exerting a lot of effort to make sure all T's are crossed and I's dotted to have someone suggesting we would, after twelve years of operation & six years of being self-hosted and distinct from ZTNET (i.e. managing the servers & money ourselves), suddenly break form and ruin all of that effort. As for the custom remixes, I am pretty certain they would be shared with the community, but directed by the donator. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Brandon Strader Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 As for the custom remixes, I am pretty certain they would be shared with the community, but directed by the donator. If they ask for polka metal, you know who to come to. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OceansAndrew Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 If they ask for polka metal, you know who to come to. You are the only man capable of such a feat; it is known. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gollgagh Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 Secondly, in terms of us not thinking it through enough - hindsight is always 20/20, we did think a lot of it through, this is our first go-round, we've all got full-time jobs, etc. I don't feel like there was a significant failure or inexplicable lack of foresight on our part, but what do I know. ahaha Sorry, I didn't mean to imply that you guys didn't think it through at all; just that a single aspect slipped by you. I know how hard it is to get every single detail right on something the first time despite one's best efforts. I readily believe that quite a lot of thought was put into this, and I think it shows in the amount of support that it has received. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FoxxDragon Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 Well DJP, you linked to the content policy, which I appreciate because I had never actually read through it before. So now I would ask you or any OCR Staff to explain this: A.) No profit is made from the exercise of this license. This includes but is not limited to incorporation of OverClocked ReMixes into commercial works, charging or accepting more than the cost of the delivery means or medium(s) for redistributing OverClocked ReMixes, I have a feeling this is going to come down to more semantics again, but let me use a basic way of describing it. You say the albums aren't for sale. Okay fine. But the clause ALSO says "or accepting more than the cost". The cost was 15k. for 1500 albums cost = $10 per album you listed the kickstarter to accept (IE only way to receive the album) at $50 for 1000 copies Actual acceptance = 5x over cost of producing (or a little less. since not all albums are allowed on the KS) I'm perfectly willing to just say "man, you REALLY did not think this through at all" but it's so much of an oversight that you seem to forget your own policy. Which is strange, because you say this is the measuring stick for all things OCR. But at the same time, you don't think you didn't think it through. While you can argue the definition of profit: the actual clause explicitly says no accepting more than the cost. It's been pointed out that you usually take things at a loss- which I'd completely be unsurprised about. I'm not even arguing that you should take things as a loss. But this seems contrary to your policy. EDIT Oh- i should note though, it's obvious via updates that more things will come instead. And thats okay. thats good, even. But this is strictly about the inital offering. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djpretzel Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 You seem to be confused about something. The "Terms of Use" part of the policy that you are quoting - it doesn't apply to us, or artists, it specifically applies to other people who want to use OC ReMixes in some other context. It is basically a license extension. The "Submission Agreement" is the part that applies to both artists & us, and is more contractual in nature, where artists agree to do (or not do) certain things, and we agree to do (or not do) certain things. I think you haven't correctly recognized the purpose of each respective section. I'd appreciate it if you stopped saying we didn't think things through, and read more closely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FoxxDragon Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 Hmm, okay, I apologize for misunderstanding that. Now I'm a bit more confused though.. You brought it up to point out why VV (as an example) was a problem. And you said, you want others to follow these same rules. And that is why you want more official status albums (if I understand correctly) But, now you say those rules don't actually apply to specific OCR projects? Or.. OCR as an entity? And are just for the artists? If that were true, what bearing would it have on VV or other non OCR projects? Does OCR have a different set of guidelines for official projects? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djpretzel Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 Hmm, okay, I apologize for misunderstanding that. Now I'm a bit more confused though.. You brought it up to point out why VV (as an example) was a problem. And you said, you want others to follow these same rules. And that is why you want more official status albums (if I understand correctly) But, now you say those rules don't actually apply to specific OCR projects? Or.. OCR as an entity? And are just for the artists? If that were true, what bearing would it have on VV or other non OCR projects? Does OCR have a different set of guidelines for official projects? I think you're still not understanding me. We don't have any guidelines whatsoever for NON-official projects, so yes. I'm not talking about guidelines, I'm talking about the fact that every OFFICIAL album has to be submitted under the Submission Agreement of our content policy. That's what guarantees we cannot profit, among other things. My point has nothing to do with whether VV falls under these rules of not (it doesn't since it wasn't submitted), but everything to do with the fact that we HAVE a content policy in the first place. We KNOW that we're contractually prevented from profiting. Since we don't KNOW that about anyone else - because they have no such guarantee - our advice & level of trust should and does vary. The specific rule you quoted was NOT in the Submission Agreement - the part that would apply to album directors in terms of printing physicals - it was in the Terms of Use - the part that would apply to some dude who wanted to use an existing ReMix in his YouTube video. They are separate sections with different audiences. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
FoxxDragon Posted July 13, 2012 Share Posted July 13, 2012 I think you're still not understanding me. We don't have any guidelines whatsoever for NON-official projects, so yes.I'm not talking about guidelines, I'm talking about the fact that every OFFICIAL album has to be submitted under the Submission Agreement of our content policy. That's what guarantees we cannot profit, among other things. My point has nothing to do with whether VV falls under these rules of not (it doesn't since it wasn't submitted), but everything to do with the fact that we HAVE a content policy in the first place. We KNOW that we're contractually prevented from profiting. Since we don't KNOW that about anyone else - because they have no such guarantee - our advice & level of trust should and does vary. The specific rule you quoted was NOT in the Submission Agreement - the part that would apply to album directors in terms of printing physicals - it was in the Terms of Use - the part that would apply to some dude who wanted to use an existing ReMix in his YouTube video. They are separate sections with different audiences. Well I didn't mean to imply that your rules and such would affect any other album. Obviously it doesn't. But as I understood it- you used the link as an example of why you take issues with other albums. IE: heres what we do, so when others don't do this, it's an issue. HOWEVER! I understand the Terms of Agreement thing now. Sorry for that. 1st part is the topic at hand. 2nd part is for other people. got it Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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