Sharing WIPs

[Diodes]

What are your thoughts on sharing WIPs? I am asking because I personally have some misgivings about it, that have prevented me from sharing the music that I'm working on. I don't think it's a good thing that I've had this hesitation, because there are obvious benefits to sharing your work, such as getting constructive feedback that you can learn from. Basically the 2 things I'm hung up on are:

* Copyright issues - if you haven't copyrighted your work yet and you're posting it publicly, there is the potential for somebody to "steal" it. I realize that this is very unlikely, and also that the consequences of this happening may not be very dire, but I'm still interested in what you think of this issue.

* Not showing your best work. If it's a WIP, it's not representative of a polished, finished product, and it may have the potential to turn potential fans off to your work. I guess one way to approach this is to not post WIPs on your most professional web presences like your website or official FB page, but keep it to a smaller group of people from whom you would value constructive feedback. Or you can just be like Jonathan Coulton and post what the fuck ever that you've thrown together in a week, and people will understand the context.

I have been holding back from sharing a lot of stuff I have because I'm waiting for that moment when everything is all polished and shiny and perfect. But I think that having this mentality can be more detrimental than helpful. Now that I've actually taken some time to think about exactly why I have been this way about my WIPs, they just don't seem like good reasons anymore. What do you think?

[Rozovian]

On the copyright thing - whenever a work in fixed in some form - notation, audio - the copyright is yours. Registering the copyright is another matter.

That said, I kind'a share your misgivings about sharing wips, both of them, the latter more than the former these days.

[Chimpazilla]

I have a small group of friends I share my wips with. I have one who is really great at music theory and can hear when I've violated musical rules. I have another who is great at arrangement and sound design. I have yet another who is a mixing genius. I typically send my wips to those three people and get the most amazing and diverse feedback from them. I trust them. Some wips I will throw into the wip forum here, once I'm detached enough from the song (after not working on it for a few days) to get more random and unexpected feedback... but typically I've bounced it off my Fab Three prior to that time.

My stuff would never approach "shiny and perfect" without this feedback process. It's amazing the big stuff I miss by being too close to the mix. This feedback is essential for me to move forward.

As for copyright stuff and stealing, gosh I can't help you there...

[Esperado]

personally, I think you could just make a different account on soundcloud (or a first one) for the purpose of having wips. I don't think its a disservice to the fans either. if anything it seems like they would be pretty psyched for whatever song(s) you happen to be working on, and probably don't care as much for whether or not its polished perfectly. even if they didnt like it , I doubt you'll alienate fans either by posting things.

[Garpocalypse]

I felt this way for awhile before i became more vocal on the forums here. Then i realized I wasn't growing at all and now i get pretty excited when I have something new to share. Though i never share something that's not already a complete idea with a decent attempt at mixing.

If you are holding onto your work to see if you can do something better with it later then you are never going to get anywhere. I've had several people tell this to me and even though i keep wanting to go back and fix things months down the road it's far better to just move on. Set deadlines for yourself and keep the flow.

That being said how about a Diotrans mix flood!

[Diodes]

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, guys. I got a SoundCloud and put up a song I did last year. Here it is: https://soundcloud.com/diotrans/jealousy

[Meteo Xavier]

I almost sense a confidence or security issue in there - the problems you mention are roughly the same sharing either WIPs or full tracks. Either one is suspect to be stolen and either one might not be a great representation of your "work" anyway, in fact a WIP is safer all the same since... well, what is someone going to do with a WIP? They can't really improve on it unless they remix it as an original sample, which probably isn't worth the effort.

The advantages to putting out WIPs have been mentioned already, so I don't need to repeat that, I just wonder what the fear would be on a practical level. People put out WIPs all the time with music, video games, movie trailers, sketches, etc, and it's pretty rare someone would go "OMG WHAT THE HELL IS THAT SHIT THIS XentertainmentpieceX IS GOING TO SUCK HARD JUST STOP RIGHT NOW".

I'd say you really have nothing at all to worry about.

[jnWake]

To me, it depends on the objectives I have with the songs and my level of skill.

Since I'm pretty new at producing I can use every advice that people give me so I try to post a decent amount of WIPs (I've posted like 4-5 on the forums since I joined). If I was more skilled, I'd probably post finished songs or just submit them without posting them here, since it adds to the surprise!

If I was working on a solo album or something I probably wouldn't share WIPs or, at least, don't show many of them.

I'm mainly talking about remixes here, I wouldn't share many WIPs of original songs since I do them for a band and that implies different rules for sharing music

EDIT: Oh, and also, I don't really fear stealing since there isn't much that somebody can make with stolen tracks.

[Argle]

I don't share WIPs unless I'm sending them to someone I'm collaborating with, because I see no reason to post unfinished work. I guess I might post a WIP if I was stuck, but that hadn't happened in years.

[ectogemia]

I'm all for the sharing of project files, to take it a step further. Looking directly at the product of someone's methodology is the next best thing to watching someone create that product in real time. A WIP may not be your best work, being that it's unfinished, but there's still plenty of criticism to be made that would probably remain valid once the project were to be completed.

[timaeus222]

I don't really share WIPs too often unless I want feedback from a close friend, or something like that. In those times, my WIPs tend to be incomplete in arrangement and partially incomplete in production quality. I work on production at the same time as I work on the arrangement. That way, when the arrangement is being written, I don't have to worry too much about the production. Instead of fixing everything later, I only have to fix one instrument at a time, as I'm adding it in. Much easier than making 30+ mixer tracked instruments balance exactly perfectly.

In the case I post a WIP on OCR, I almost never post a WIP with an incomplete arrangement. Usually when I post WIPs for feedback, they already have finished arrangements, and I search for minor adjustments to the arrangement and/or fixes to some production stuff. That way people don't have to get distracted and say stuff like "oh yeah, and you should probably put an ending. It'd be a good idea, mate! :D". That's mainly because often, only I can truly write an arrangement that satisfies me, but I tend to be able to put myself in other people's shoes to help with their arrangement if they need it. Rarely do I ask for advice on arrangement; that only happens if I truly get stuck right in the middle of a track and I can't think of anything at all within a whole bunch of retries.

As for copyright... come on, really? What musician would be good enough to copy your instrument timbres exactly and then continue your arrangement coherently? Well, the answer to that is simple. One that has the skill to do so... and one who has that skill would also have the proper mentality to not actually try that. What well-rounded composer, in his/her right mind, would need to steal, when they could write their own song, right? Besides, even if they just take the musical ideas by themselves, they probably wouldn't have the same ideas as you for the arrangement, so it would be kind of unique, yet somewhat of a ripoff anyway (in a nice way).

[XPRTNovice]

I thoroughly enjoy sharing WIPs, particularly because I'm primarily a musician and not a sound engineer. I love the learning element of it, and the communal element of trading music. Since music isn't a source of income for me even a little - and in the times when it has been, it's had nothing to do with my compositions - I'm not really worried about my music being stolen by Coldplay and them making a CD out of it. Besides, as Rozo said, if they did and I could prove that it was my intellectual propety, I'd get some money out of it anyway.

As far as not posting my best work...I consider the "audience" to be the greater community, not the WIP forums. The people who frequent the WIP forums are there for that purpose, so they're not there to judge you based on something you did in two hours and want some feedback on your composition for, you know?

[AngelCityOutlaw]

I thoroughly enjoy sharing WIPs, particularly because I'm primarily a musician and not a sound engineer. I love the learning element of it, and the communal element of trading music. Since music isn't a source of income for me even a little - and in the times when it has been, it's had nothing to do with my compositions - I'm not really worried about my music being stolen by Coldplay and them making a CD out of it. Besides, as Rozo said, if they did and I could prove that it was my intellectual propety, I'd get some money out of it anyway.

As far as not posting my best work...I consider the "audience" to be the greater community, not the WIP forums. The people who frequent the WIP forums are there for that purpose, so they're not there to judge you based on something you did in two hours and want some feedback on your composition for, you know?

If I could "like" this post facebook style, I totally would.

[timaeus222]

As far as not posting my best work...I consider the "audience" to be the greater community, not the WIP forums. The people who frequent the WIP forums are there for that purpose, so they're not there to judge you based on something you did in two hours and want some feedback on your composition for, you know?

I notice that too. After working with music for so long, sometimes I forget how little non-music producers care about how well something is produced. They like what they like, and they're very subjective (that better be the right word, lol). i.e. They comment based on their preference, not the skill your song shows or doesn't show.

In the end, the general audience is your final judge on whether or not your music is enjoyable (although there are some people that can be both subjective and objective about a song. ;D). People on the WIP forums are for objective comments or both.

[AngelCityOutlaw]

They comment based on their preference, not the skill your song shows or doesn't show.

I know there is a after that sentence, which may indicate sarcasm, but I still disagree with those words. Because this implies the only way to show musical skill is through production.

By that logic, anything made in a time before the technology existed to record music, sucked. I'm probably just reading it wrong though, I just got back from having to put my dog down, so my mind is kinda cloudy.

However, I do agree with the last part of Timaeus' post.

[Rozovian]

I know there is a after that sentence, which may indicate sarcasm, but I still disagree with those words. Because this implies the only way to show musical skill is through production.

By that logic, anything made in a time before the technology existed to record music, sucked. I'm probably just reading it wrong though, I just got back from having to put my dog down, so my mind is kinda cloudy.

Imma jump in here to say performance and production aren't the same thing, but they're both ways to show the skill of a composer or arranger. We have computers now so we can make up for a lack of performance skill, just like someone playing an acoustic instrument doesn't have to think about production. Except the parts that apply to live performance, thatis.

(also yes, subjective is what ppl think and feel, objective is what something really is)

[timaeus222]

I know there is a after that sentence, which may indicate sarcasm, but I still disagree with those words. Because this implies the only way to show musical skill is through production.

By that logic, anything made in a time before the technology existed to record music, sucked. I'm probably just reading it wrong though, I just got back from having to put my dog down, so my mind is kinda cloudy.

However, I do agree with the last part of Timaeus' post.

That implication came from your thoughts. If I wanted to, I could say you implied with this quote...

By that logic, anything made in a time before the technology existed to record music, sucked.

...that music recorded before it could be recorded sucked, which doesn't make sense because it isn't possible to record in a time when you don't have the tools to record anything at all. Totally not what you meant though. You meant a time when music couldn't be recorded from a home studio that you could buy materials for and assemble and build yourself.

I can see where you're coming from, though, with what I said. It seemed like I linked the word "skill" with the unwritten word "musical". I actually didn't link the word "skill" with anything. I meant to write "production skill" (otherwise it's literally plain old "skill" with absolutely any modifier you want to give it with the uber power of your mind), and you were thinking of "musical skill", which aren't the same, as Rozo mentioned.

What I meant is that typical people who don't write music don't hear what we hear. Once you start delving deep into music production, you start joining the group of "elite few" who have ears that can hear distinctive details that the majority of the population either doesn't often notice or dismisses because the details aren't subjectively enjoyable.

I didn't imply that the only way to show musical skill is through production. I didn't imply anything, actually. If at all, I would have implied that good or convincingly good musical performance combined with memorable passages and sufficiently good production equals an enjoyable song to both audiophiles and the general audience.

I wouldn't say songs before the high quality technology arrived sucked. I would say songs before the high quality technology arrived could be good or bad, depending on the balance between music production skill and interesting musical writing. Basically, songs before the 2000's had the challenge of less technology, and therefore, oldie artists had to develop real musical as well as production skills. Back then, without the somewhat exclusive tools (which were sub-par when compared to more recent years. Like tape delays for reverb, versus traditional digital reverbs, versus convolution reverbs), not many people were capable of writing/starting a song at all. These days, we can just throw things together and call it (or try to call it) a song, and because of that, it's much easier to write a bad song than before the 2000's.

Okay, I think that's clear enough, lol.

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@Rozo: Yeah, that's what it said in the link I posted and that's therefore what I was thinking about the two words when I typed out that post. It's a long article though, so I'd understand if you didn't read much of it. I'm taking a logic class very soon though, so I'm probably going to go back and read that eventually. It's a pretty cool article I found on a random google search.