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XPRTNovice

Why don't I hate the old Final Fantasies?

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I hated FFXIII. I mean, really hated it. I will probably never play it again. When I saw XIII-2, I felt like I wanted to cry. I realized that I would never buy that game, making it the only FF I don't own (MMOs aside, because those are stupid).

[blasphemy]But there are things that are similar in the old FFs that probably means I should hate them, too. I mean, if you added bad voice acting to FF5, for example, what would you get? Bad dialog is in there, too, and confusing plot points (Zeromus, ho!). [/blasphemy]

Sometimes I just feel like I'm being a fan boy. I'm replaying Secret of Mana right now, and the plot is awful. Yet I would easily play that game again rather than play some of the newer FFs. FFX was sort of a breaking point for me; it was good, but X-2 destroyed my soul. And then I didn't really enjoy 12 that much (I tend to like plots that include main characters that actually matter).

Just wondering if anyone else had this thought in the back of their head - we worship some of the older games in SPITE of their flaws, but crucify the new games because of some of those same flaws. I do, at least.

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pretty much this

10, 12 and 13 (yes, even 13) are all better games than their predecessors in nearly every regard but people don't really care because i don't know why

i've been spouting this for years but nobody believes me.

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pretty much this

10, 12 and 13 (yes, even 13) are all better games than their predecessors in nearly every regard but people don't really care because i don't know why

i've been spouting this for years but nobody believes me.

I completely disagree with you. I find the opposite to be true. Name one way in which 10, 12, and 13 better games than their predecessors. You're going to have to be more specific.

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VII was the best. Ever. It has no flaws. So don't look for them.

I think some of the new games get crucified for their flaws because they are doing a really shoddy job of filling in what players used to figure out for themselves.

Edited by Garpocalypse

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The virtue of FF5's stupidity is that it didn't take itself very seriously. They were cartoony enough to get away with it. You had what amounted to a bunch of quick-change artists in silly costumes running around. That made their comical ineffectiveness, contrived conflicts, and boneheaded strategies approach acceptable.

The same could probably be said of FF3j.

FF1 was too bare-bones to even criticize at this level.

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I hate the NES FFs - I found them incredibly unfun.

FF10 (and 9 to a similar extent) I found tedious due to loading and not as much gratification to fill in that gap.

FF12 I despised for it being extremely frustrating, grindy, and not fun overall without a guide. It wasn't as painful when I used GameFAQs on a new playthrough a couple years after, but that shouldn't be a requirement for enjoyment.

FF13, I suspect I like more than most people.

To be honest though, I feel that Chrono Trigger has aged better than all of the FFs, as much as I love FF6.

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Just wondering if anyone else had this thought in the back of their head - we worship some of the older games in SPITE of their flaws, but crucify the new games because of some of those same flaws. I do, at least.

What are those flaws? It's difficult to respond to this without knowing the flaws you reference.

I will say for now that the newer games have bigger flaws, which are much harder to overlook. The entirety of FF13 is the prime example of flaws that can't be overlooked (at least not easily).

Edited by Cash

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FF1 through 3 are awesome, fantastic games. FF4 is possibly the weakest FF of all, FF5 was incredibly boring, FF6 I got up to the phantom train, never finished. Ridiculously convoluted. FF7 was great but ugly as hell. FF8 is top 6, FF9 is top 6, FFX is top 6, the rest aren't Final Fantasy.

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I played the early FFs during my childhood/teen years, so they had a lasting impact on me, as do many things during that age. I think that's why we cut them slack.

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I played the early FFs during my childhood/teen years, so they had a lasting impact on me, as do many things during that age. I think that's why we cut them slack.

This is basically what I've been trying to express for the past half hour but couldn't find the right combination of words.

I just feel like with the 'classics' for me of 7-10 they focused on character/plot and used technology to their advantage to make great games. Now it's like they use technology as a crutch to carry the game but plot/character are secondary.

13 is the first game where I just stopped playing, and I can't even explain to myself why. I didn't even hate the game really--one day I just stopped (which was years ago) and I never had interest in picking it back up again.

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it's the gaming uncanny valley. The old games don't have super detailed art, meaning your imagination works harder to fill in the details. Maybe that adjusts expectations? The games not trying super hard to be edgy and badass adds charm as well.

You don't feel disappointed if you go see a comedy and fail to have a good cry because of the tragic story.

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*OBVIOUSLY SPOILERS*

The disparity of opinions on FF games always struck me as kind of insane. Cash&Change asked about some flaws, so I'll bash all of them here. You might notice I focus on plot and characters rather than game play. Sue me, I'm a fiction author.

For me, FF1-3 were worthless. There was no story at all, the battles were slow, dungeon crawling was painful, painful. I've only ever played each of the once and I don't think I'll give them a shot. I understand why people would like them in isolation, but having started with FF4, retrograding was agonizing.

FF4 had a lot of great things. Great soundtrack. I liked Cecil's and Kain's story. Rosa was a worthless female character. Golbez was convincing, but the Zemus switch at the end was laughable and stupid. I don't see where this is the weakest game.

FF5 didn't take itself seriously, like it has been said, and I didn't like that. Exedeath is also the worst name for an enemy ever. The plot seemed extremely similar to FF4 in many ways, and a character named Butz is just silly.

FF6 is one of the best, so it's hard to point out flaws except things like translation and script. The soundtrack was awesome. The plot was pretty awesome. I wished for a bit more resolution in the ending, though, like what happened to all the characters afterwards. The continual hinting at the romantic relationship with Locke/Celes that never got resolved has always been a peeve.

FF7's major flaw, in my opinion, was the ending. I don't give a shit about Red 13's puppies, despite the anatomical impossibility that THE LAST OF HIS SPECIES CANNOT REPRODUCE. I want to know what happened with everyone ELSE. I spent 60 hours getting invested in these characters, and all I get to see of them in the ending is Tifa extending her hand to Cloud?

FF8...you know, I really like FF8. I don't get why people give it so much hate just because there's a bit of an angsty teen thing going on. I thought the orphanage sequence was absolutely retarded, though, and it really lacked a good villain.

FF9 - the Return of Zemus. Who...the F@#%....is Necron? Why did I spend 50 hours getting to him? I also didn't like the goofiness of the game. It was a little too cartoony and weird. I

FFX....voice acting. Oh my god, voice acting. Tidus was a whiny little bitch, and I really didn't like the linear flow of the game and not being able to travel/explore easily.

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I played the early FFs during my childhood/teen years, so they had a lasting impact on me, as do many things during that age. I think that's why we cut them slack.

This, DEFINITELY. It's why you like Voltron and Transformers, even though they were awful. Come on, admit it. They were bad.

Edit: I also think this is why there's such a big argument about new games like FFXIII. If you're playing it, and you're 15, you'll have a different reaction to it and you'll have a knife fight with a 25 year old who, when he was 15, was playing FF7-8 instead.

The old games don't have super detailed art, meaning your imagination works harder to fill in the details. Maybe that adjusts expectations?

I agree with this, too. I think this is a major reason why a lot of people don't like movie renditions of novels.

Edited by XPRTNovice

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FF4 is a great game, very enjoyable, but IMO the plot is laughable. Yet when I was a kid I didn't really notice how silly it was. And as an adult I can't bring myself to slag off the game for that reason. Damn you nostalgia.

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13 is the first game where I just stopped playing, and I can't even explain to myself why. I didn't even hate the game really--one day I just stopped (which was years ago) and I never had interest in picking it back up again.

The endless, lifeless hallways that would not deviate destroyed the game for me. I actually came to enjoy the battles after they became challenging, about 10 hours in for me. That was because it was a break from the dreaded hallways.

The sick thing is that I played the game for 25 hours before stopping. I couldn't stop playing, maybe I kept hoping the game would get good. Never did.

@ XPRTNovice, thanks for going more in depth! I would say that my first answer was best: the flaws in the older games were not as severe, and could be overlooked. I agree that the stories in the older games had a few issues, but at least you can follow the stories. Something that can't be said for FF13.

I really think the reason why the most recent games get bashed more heavily is because the flaws are just so much worse.

Some examples:

FF10 - The sphere grid was a clunky, tedious mess. Blitzball was a nightmare. As you mentioned, the lack of an explorable world map was also a pretty big deal.

FF12 - The battle system felt very odd to me. It let you run around freely, yet you still had to wait for your turn. You were forced to run around like an idiot until you turn was ready. It also bothered me that you couldn't directly control all your party members. The lack of a world map was again an issue. It effectively felt like everywhere you went was another dungeon. Plus I also found that I was often getting lost, maybe that was just me.

FF13 - The flaws in this one should be obvious.

My thought is that the flaws I mentioned above are much harder to ignore. The way I see it, the older Final Fantasy's didn't have any potentially game breaking flaws.

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I like... I like FF11 the most.

It turned me on to the FF series. I played the FF3 DS remake and it became another favorite. I played Tactics before either those and REALLY loved it.

Then I played 13.. and you know, I went to the midnight release. I was genuinely crushed by how much I couldn't enjoy it.

But man, FF11 is one of only two games that I can say changed my life.

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I think that the new games are a lot slower to play than the older ones. From FF8 onwards, animations started turning stupidly long, making even simple battles annoying. Also, loading times don't help the games at all...

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FF10 - The sphere grid was a clunky, tedious mess. Blitzball was a nightmare. As you mentioned, the lack of an explorable world map was also a pretty big deal.

I'd have to disagree completely, here. The sphere grid was one of the most fun level-up systems I've experienced in a game. Blitzball consumed countless hours (probably about half of the time spent playing the game) trying to get my team to win the top prizes. One of my favorite "mini-games" in any game. The lack of an explorable world map (and this goes for XII and XIII as well) didn't even register while I was playing any of these games. It makes more sense to me than your giant character running halfway across the world in 30 seconds and I felt more immersed in the game because you literally get to see the ENTIRE world. Not just towns/dungeons/points of interest.

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I think that the new games are a lot slower to play than the older ones. From FF8 onwards, animations started turning stupidly long, making even simple battles annoying. Also, loading times don't help the games at all...

You hit 8 nail on the head for me. I just couldn't get into it at all :(

I personally haven't played any of the recent FFs, but all I can think of is that the charm left when Uematsu left. Come to think of it, if a game cuts corners regarding any aspect of the game's presentation, then of course it doesn't compare to previous games in the series that strived to improve on it.

The only question that would be raised though, is thus: why is FF9, a game that to game reviewers seemed to have also cut corners, is generally better received by fans than even FF8? The key I see with this is mostly due to its return to a more nostalgic style with hints of FF1's assets, which seemed to help its long-term likeability. From what I saw of FF13 though, it doesn't seem to be falling back in quite the same way.

You can call my thoughts completely wrong, but it's all I can think of in regards to why these recent FFs aren't living up to expectations :\

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In response to the first post:

Truthfully, FF4 was sorta cheesy, and so was FF5. By today's standards they do fall short... However, if FF6 was made today, I'd probably hail it as the best RPG ever. I don't think it's nearly as cheesy or as flawed as its predecessors. The plot? Still haven't seen an RPG plot that is as captivating and thought-out.

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In response to the first post:

Truthfully, FF4 was sorta cheesy, and so was FF5. By today's standards they do fall short... However, if FF6 was made today, I'd probably hail it as the best RPG ever. I don't think it's nearly as cheesy or as flawed as its predecessors. The plot? Still haven't seen an RPG plot that is as captivating and thought-out.

imagine them speaking out loud and having set emotions in place in CG

you'd hate it because it actually is cheesy and your brain just let you get away with thinking it wasn't due to imagination

even if it *wasn't* cheesy the voice acting wouldn't be as good as you wanted it to be, the main reason why anyone thinks most of these newer stories are bad/worse/not just as bad as the old ones

Edited by The Derrit

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