How to approach discouraging results

[Esperado]

So I've been working with music production for more than two years now, and while i can sometimes produce pleasing results, it seems the majority of the things i make either never reach completion, or still sound horribly amateur ( to me ). Lately ive felt quite discouraged whenever i sit down to make a mix. I'm curious what other people do when theyre feeling like theyre totally stuck.

One thing i really struggle with is creating dynamic and interesting arrangements.

[Yami]

Interesting coincidence I just thought about the same things a few days ago.

Well, I think it doesn't matter that much if you finish a lot or not. I publish 1/10th of my WIPs at most, and even from that most of them never get finished in a timely manner. I think it helps to put it back and come back at a later time.

Considering dynamic arrangements, well that's one of my main problems as well

Like I said in a different thread, I think I'm not half as talented as most of the guys and girls here, but I still keep making music, because it's fun, and that what it's supposed to be

[timaeus222]

Here are some circumstances that I've gone through:

1) I stopped working on a piece for a while, came back to it, and wasn't sure what I intended to do next at the time I had stopped. I familiarize myself with it again by listening to it and playing it back in my head. Then I try to improvise something by humming, just to see where I would take it if I was free to write something instantly, right away, without having to write it out. I basically audition ideas in my head until something clicks, and I hope to God that I'm at home at the time. This is what happens most of the time for me.

2) I'm writing something, and it turns out completely different from what I intended, but not in such a good way. I tend to know by gut feelings if something either just doesn't work, or might have potential later. If it has potential, I toss it aside in a WIP folder. If it doesn't, I put it in a Scrapped folder. I usually just come back later to the ones that have potential and it tends to be that I either start it over or keep going with it. Honestly, if it doesn't seem to work for me at that time, I'd save it for later, put it aside for the moment, and start over with a new project file. The biggest thing is to keep everything archived. You never know when something butt-old sparks a new interest in you. ;D This happens second most often for me.

3) If I just feel that someone else can elevate it by collaboration, then I'd ask them to play a live part or something. That's if I wanted to sequence something too hard, and if it just happens that that's what's getting me stuck. This happened only once so far, a few weeks ago where I was sequencing lead violin. I mean, Brandon Strader was happy with it, but I wasn't (the vibrato was too fake, the notes didn't feel natural, etc.), so I got Jeff Ball to play it, and it sounds so good now (I only really got stuck for two weeks from waiting for his schedule to clear up). I've never actually asked someone to entirely take over an old arrangement of mine before, though. This hardly ever happens for me... even when I really should go through with it when it does.

Edited September 9, 2014 by timaeus222

[Yami]

2) I'm writing something, and it turns out completely different from what I intended

I think that's pretty cool, it happens to me most of the time, I start a mix with a goal and in the end it's totally different. I think that makes you able to feel the flow of music a bit (yeah romanticized statement, I know)

[timaeus222]

I think that's pretty cool, it happens to me most of the time, I start a mix with a goal and in the end it's totally different. I think that makes you able to feel the flow of music a bit (yeah romanticized statement, I know)

Yeah. One time, I wanted to try writing a Tornado Man remix in the style of Dream Theater. Turned out to be in the style of Lindsey Stirling. But I Iiked it in the end.

[Yami]

Yeah. One time, I wanted to try writing a Tornado Man remix in the style of Dream Theater. Turned out to be in the style of Lindsey Stirling. But I Iiked it in the end.

My first entry of the rRPC was supposed to be electronic, it ended up being jazzy

[AngelCityOutlaw]

I think you always have to consider exactly what purpose your music serves.

I've been writing film/game style tunes for some time now and the good thing about it is that I don't get writer's block much because the tracks are only a couple minutes long at most. Or, there are just several variations of the tune which are triggered depending what happens in the game. With a film, it's just playing stuff that works with what's on screen at that second in time - so you have constant inspiration.

Now that I'm starting to just get back into writing songs, I'd been struggling with writing arrangements that were too repetitious. The thing with well composed arrangements that sound really dynamic is that often, it's actually much simpler than it sounds. When I first heard a lot of these "progressive" kinds of bands, it all seemed so complicated that I couldn't understand how they could remember what they were doing.

Then, I realized it's structured mostly the same as any other rock song, it's just that the verse, chorus and bridge repeat several times more. However, there is always some obvious variation that makes it seem drastically different. Aside from new lyrics, the rhythm part might be diminished or augmented, slightly different instrumentation, different phrasing of the melody etc.

TL;DR Your music doesn't have to be any specific length. If it's just 1 - 2 minutes and it sounds great that's fine. If you're done with it you're done. If you need to have it the standard 3 - 4 minutes and you're stumped for a new section. Repeat an old section with some variation.

[Argle]

2 years, how adorable. I've been at this for over a decade and I still feel like I basically understand nothing. and you can find old dudes on KVR who have been at it for multiple decades and say the same thing. the thing to realize is, self doubt can easily cripple you. so there are boundaries.... one side is arrogance where you don't grow because you don't strive to improve. the other side is being paralyzed by self doubt and not growing because you don't get anything done. you have to walk in the middle. understand your weaknesses and work to improve them, while realizing there are newbies who would look at you and say wow, that guy knows what he's doing. so look at peoples music that you look up to and say, ok, what are they doing right that I am not. and then try to do it.

[timaeus222]

2 years, how adorable. I've been at this for over a decade and I still feel like I basically understand nothing.

lol

Technically I've been at it for about 3, but after a little more than 2, I made 'Cloudhopping' with Kristina. So... I dunno. Depends on how much time you dedicate to this. Though I think I improved much more in this past year than I did in the second year I tried stuff with music. Important thing is to keep at it, often. Honestly though, modesty aside, I think you do know what you're doing, Argle.

[Argle]

lol

Technically I've been at it for about 3, but after a little more than 2, I made 'Cloudhopping' with Kristina. So... I dunno. Depends on how much time you dedicate to this. Though I think I improved much more in this past year than I did in the second year I tried stuff with music. Important thing is to keep at it, often. Honestly though, modesty aside, I think you do know what you're doing, Argle.

maybe compared to some people, but I have a huge list of artists I can look at and think welp, might as well give up. and you know what? so do they. so it's all relative, and I think you have to be careful comparing yourself to others too much, or it can be a real bummer. you should do it SOME to get inspired, but too much and you'll go into a depression. when it comes to making music we are all special little snowflakes, and I am not being sarcastic at all.

[Yami]

I've been at this for over a decade and I still feel like I basically understand nothing.

Yeah, I know this, I started remixing 4 years ago, I still feel like a newb, even if I have improved (which I definitely have), and I know I still have so much to learn. But I agree with timaeus, you know what you're doing

[Chimpazilla]

I've never actually asked someone to entirely take over an old arrangement of mine before, though. This hardly ever happens for me... even when I really should go through with it when it does.

I never had done this either (although T you and I tried this once, unsuccessfully), until I wrote my Molgera track for BadAss3 and it turned out way too "nice." I sent the entire file over to Redg, and he is going over my existing arrangement and making it much more evil and it is now turning into a really cool collab. Once he finishes adding that evil touch to a section, he sends it back to me and I can add even more little details to it, which has proven to be SUPER fun. Sometimes trying entirely new things is a great idea, as is working with others who have a style very different from yours.

One exercise you can try is to lay out two or more VGM themes fairly verbatim, then see how you can either transition them or layer them together. Use simple themes, and simple instrumentation. Very good exercise.

[Chimpazilla]

when it comes to making music we are all special little snowflakes, and I am not being sarcastic at all.

I LOVE THIS. So well put.

[Jorito]

Try to time your activity and inspiration if you can. Forcing myself to work on something never worked well for me. I mean, music will come out, but it'll never be that great.

In stead, when I hear this cool game track that inspires me in one way or the other (or this particular music style I want to try out) I place it in the back of my mind, think about how I want to approach things, think out basic song and/or instrument ideas and basically pep up myself during the process, so that when I finally get myself to my DAW (which can be anywhere between a few hours to a few years later!) stuff more or less goes all by itself. So yeah, mental preparation works for me, but I need a starting point (a source or a style) and a bit of me-time (bike trips to/from work or the shower work well for that ).

Seems to work for me, I never end up behind my DAW stuck or uninspired.

And if that doesn't work for you, just keep at it. Stuff does get easier and more natural the more you do it. Even for newbies like Argle who have been at it for only a decade

Oh, and it might help to stuck song structure a bit more. All the purists made me a bit scared of music theory stuff, but it's a useful tool that helps you understand the how and why of things and it can also help you get unstuck. Song structure is one aspect of theory, but transitions, energy buildup and dynamics are also part of that. I switch from composing music by feel only to music by feel-and-thought, it did a lot of good to my tracks.

Edited September 9, 2014 by Jorito

[Cidfox]

This may be cheesy and I'm sure most of you have seen this but I feel this video is very true. The most important thing is to not quit and be honest with yourself. If you're not happy with your production, ask for help, and take the time to learn and practice applying your new skills. Music and composition are always a learning process. The more you know, the more you don't know. Just keep at it!

http://www.upworthy.com/what-do-you-do-when-you-know-youre-not-good-enough-hell-tell-ya-2

Edited September 9, 2014 by Cidfox

[timaeus222]

maybe compared to some people, but I have a huge list of artists I can look at and think welp, might as well give up. and you know what? so do they. so it's all relative, and I think you have to be careful comparing yourself to others too much, or it can be a real bummer. you should do it SOME to get inspired, but too much and you'll go into a depression. when it comes to making music we are all special little snowflakes, and I am not being sarcastic at all.

No prob. Actually, I don't recall any real moment where I was depressed specifically about music. Yeah, zircon has always been better than me, for example, but I'm good with that. Gives me a better idea of what I can't do yet, and that, for me, just makes me less often bored because there's more to do.

And I'm similar to Jorito. I compose by feel. I can't bring myself to do much under the sheet music mentality. I kinda had to today to get a hook idea down, but that was about it since about two years ago.

Edited September 10, 2014 by timaeus222

[Nabeel Ansari]

Don't compare yourself to those better than you unless you want to swallow your life into it (music) to keep improving. If you don't have a competitive resolve, one that makes you motivated to constantly get better, you will find despair in comparing yourself to people who are better than you, because the thing is that there's always someone better than you.

Focus on you and getting what you want out of music.

I've been hooked on Urobuchi lately

[AngelCityOutlaw]

I'm surprised there hasn't been the requisite "Pfft, it's all subjective anyway" hand-wave post yet.

[Ravich]

So I've been working with music production for more than two years now, and while i can sometimes produce pleasing results, it seems the majority of the things i make either never reach completion, or still sound horribly amateur ( to me ). Lately ive felt quite discouraged whenever i sit down to make a mix. I'm curious what other people do when theyre feeling like theyre totally stuck.

One thing i really struggle with is creating dynamic and interesting arrangements.

Some things to keep in mind that might help:

-You need victories. Those things that you feel you've been able to do well on? You need more of those. If you've done it before, you can do it again.

-External motivation. Deadlines can be wondrous things when it comes to helping you push through work. Everyone is different in this regard, but consider collaboration on a project with someone if deadlines help you.

-Feedback from other people. Working in an isolated vacuum can be very difficult for some people, especially those who are prone to pessimistic outlooks.

-Goals. Creating a dynamic and interesting arrangement isnt a very measurable goal to achieve. Try to stay away from evaluative descriptions when you define a goal for yourself. You cant withhold feelings of success from yourself until you're satisfied with something, as that may not happen often enough to keep you going. Define a goal that is based on concrete factors such as instrumentation, solos, structure, meter, etc.

-It is important to learn to recognize when you are looking too far ahead. Creativity doesnt mesh well with catastrophic predictions of the future. Chances are you're doing it without even realizing it. I remember when I would sit down to write music and tire out in less than an hour without even realize that I was weighing myself down with pessimistic thoughts. The first step learning to be aware of it and identify when it is happening. Aim to focus only on what you are doing in the moment. Looking ahead is necessary sooner or later, but you cant worry about it constantly.

-Technique. You might be in need of developing some technical skills. Hard to say whether that is or isnt the case, but keep in mind that not everything is raw creativity.

Remember, not everything you write is going to be good, and it doesnt need to be. I remember hearing Austin Wintory respond to the question "what would you consider a good day in terms of output when it comes to writing music" and he said that he never really knew, in the moment, when it was a good day. Things he'd written that he thought were fantastic would seems less than stellar in retrospect, while things he thought were terrible initially, ended up being what he was most satisfied with.

[bitl3gs]

A lot of good suggestions in here. I'll add:

Be confident in yourself, and try to find practical ways to improve what you think is lacking in your production skills. a lot of that is simply practice and experimentation, research, developing listening skills. This strive for improvement should probably be there for as long as you are a musician.

Most importantly, HAVE FUN. Being discouraged every time you sit down to work on something is simply not productive and those feelings will probably translate to depressing music.

And don't worry too much about unfinished stuff, that happens to everyone and is pretty healthy anyway. If a track is not coming together how you want it to, archive it somewhere and move on to a different project. Someday you might have new ideas or techniques at your disposal to work with it again.

[supercoobie64]

This may be cheesy and I'm sure most of you have seen this but I feel this video is very true. The most important thing is to not quit and be honest with yourself. If you're not happy with your production, ask for help, and take the time to learn and practice applying your new skills. Music and composition are always a learning process. The more you know, the more you don't know. Just keep at it!

http://www.upworthy.com/what-do-you-do-when-you-know-youre-not-good-enough-hell-tell-ya-2

I was going to post this! Related to this is this video by James Murphy:

Even the guy behind the mega hit dance-rock band LCD Soundsystem had issues starting out.

Another piece of advice: I went to a show by a guy named Phutureprimitive (really awesome producer btw, you should check him out) and I got a chance to talk to him after the show. I asked him if he had any advice for aspiring producers, and he said the best advice he could give is listen to a LOT of music. If you listen to a huge variety of music and don't limit yourself, inspiration will come naturally.

[WillRock]

My best advice (without looking through the thread at everyones answers so this could have been already said) is to fight through the discouragement. Sometimes, a track might not be clicking right away for you, but by the end of it, it'll sound completely awesome. Then again it might not. But hey, you TRIED, and since music is all a matter of opinion, others will dig it. I've have remixes I absolutely hate being praised as my best work by some people. My point is that sometimes, it will work for you, sometimes it won't, and thats perfectly ok, because its all part of your learning process. Not even you are going to like everything you create, but just remember that doesn't mean no one else will either.

[SnappleMan]

Always compare yourself to the very best. Work until you get there because you CAN get there with enough practice. The only hard part (aside from decades of relentless practice and study) is to make sure you're practicing and learning correctly, so make sure you get your information from multiple sources and study the things that are universally accepted as "right".

The longer you work on something, the less chance there is of it getting done, and the worse it'll sound relative to your abilities when it is done. Your goal is to work as quickly as you can while trying (and usually failing) to retain a constant level of quality.

Give yourself a month per song, finish it within a month, release it as is, move on. Doing it this way will force you to improve at a much faster rate since a new song will more easily allow for implementation of your slightly improved skills since starting the last one. If you work on the same song over and over till it's "good" you wont be able to adapt your own improving skills to it without overhauling it, and then you're pretty much stuck in a cycle of redoing a song that should have been released months/years ago.

[bitl3gs]

Always compare yourself to the very best. Work until you get there because you CAN get there with enough practice. The only hard part (aside from decades of relentless practice and study) is to make sure you're practicing and learning correctly, so make sure you get your information from multiple sources and study the things that are universally accepted as "right".

sorry but I would strongly disagree with this, unless you are striving for commercial success of some kind, riding the coattails of whatever's fashionable...

Just be yourself, blazing your own trail is immensely more satisfying. You should always be looking for inspiration in other music and seeking knowledge about different ways to do things, but the only "right" thing to do is what feels right to you.

[Esperado]

i think the idea of comparing yourself to what is right is akin to learning the basics of something. You have to learn the basics before you can break the rules. A good example is picasso, he knew fully well how to make art according to "what is universally right" and then was able to break the rules in a manner that worked well.

Thanks for all the great advice! this is such a supportive community ,which in itself makes me feel less discouraged. It turns out i just need to have more patience with myself and the things i make. If i give up now, ill never really know what i could have done.