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Sonic the Hedgehog's sad state


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I'm looking forward to SatSR in a few weeks.

Seriously though, Sonic has sucked since Adventure. The game was great when it came out (other than big the freaking cat), but SEGA has done nothing to the formula since that game came out. They use the same crappy camera and it seems like the use the same engine for each game and the only thing they changed was the graphics.

I hope SatSR does not suck balls.

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This is my first post here but i've been a frequent ocremixes visitor for 3-4 years now. And I recently downloaded the Project Chaos album that was release here *which in my opinion..awesome* but I've felt like sharing my 2 cents into the matter. I am really disappointed with the recent Sonic games but I highly doubt any "good" sonic games will come out. I think it was cheer luck that Sonic Rush was good, because to tell you the truth, the problem with game companies now is that they just milk the crap out of their "gold mines". Sega sadly after "Sonic X-Treme" not making the cut, sold out for me. I am not going to blame Shadow the Hedgehog whatsoever because I believe that's not where the problem began. In fact, I dig the character "Shadow the hedgehog" but it was a really bad time to bring that guy out, it was in fact the last nail in the coffin. The problem had already begun when Sega got greedy with where they stood with their console back in the 90s. I noticed this after reading how Sonic was made *the original 1 2 3 & Knuckles*. There was dedication to those games because back in the day.. "rivalry" existed! When you got rivalry, you want perfection! You want to be the best! But that's not the case anymore. Hence why Sega is making games now instead of consoles. It's all about "making money". And if it means to "milk" the shit out of a formula, or use one of the worlds best gaming mascots to make a crap load of incarnations, trust me! IT WILL BE DONE.

I bet Sonic Team has probably come out with 2 - 3 good ideas that could've been awesome sonic games for our generation, but I bet you their bosses just shut down their idea because they decided to stick with the formula that "works". The formula that makes money. I hate to say it, you guys are trash talking all these sonic games but I bet each and one of you have either rented the new sonics, or bought the new sonics. That's money right there for them. So regardless they are winning. They don't care about how you feel where sonic needs to be they just want their cut. Unless, [we] the ultimate consumer stops renting / buying or giving any attention to the brand "Sonic The Hedgehog" we will continue to get shitty Sonic titles. The hope right now is that some new team shows up.. whom Sega doesn't give a rats $#$ about and they "see" what we see and make an awesome game. That game could possibly be that Wii game.

Until then.. it's going to be crappy water down wanna be originals of Sonic 1 & 2 & 3.

Remember, we are getting old now. While these games might be crap to us. These games are probably the "shit" for little kids. Just how they were to us when we first got em. And as long as little kids exist.. there's no reason to stop the formula.

BTW: It's best if by default all of you stop comparing the 'newer' sonics to the old sonics. It would help appreciate the good parts of the new sonics. Don't get me wrong, as a "true sonic" fan I detest! Sonic Adventure 1 and Adventure 2. Now lets say I was new to the series. NEVER EVER played Sonic! They were great games in my opinion. They were the first of their kind. Making mascots talk to each other *which was already done with the cartoon shows*, now you controlling them and of course add the "super saiyan" formula and you got one kick ass game. Let's not forget the soundtrack for SA1 and SA2 was decent stand alone by itself. Hence why it's called "Sonic Adventure" not "Sonic The Hedgehog". This of course is my opinion based on that I am not comparing the originals to the new stuff. Now if I would... man I so hate on the new sonics lol.

Think about it! Kids of that generation are gonna grow up to complain that games should be as cool as SA1 and SA2 in terms of gameplay and soundtrack. The cycle will never end. I just decided to accept the fact that we were the guinea pigs of the 1st videogame generation. Be thankful we were 1st generation =).

I seriously think some of you guys have it on point and some of you need to separate your "fan" love to a series and open your eyes to the future. Those classics were made in 1992+ ... we are in 2007, for the love of god! We are older now and have matured!... Perhaps it's time to let go of somethings.., no?

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Tonito: the problem is not that the Sonic fans feel that the game isn't up to par with past sonic games, it's that the games are actually bad by themselves. whether it's stupidly planned gameplay ike treasure hunting in sadv 2 or almost no gameplay like in some sections of sonic adv. where some of the speedy sections were cpu controlled, or giving the main character guns and shitty camera, the games have failed so far to set themselves apart as good games.

and Injin, the Wii game is a totally different version from the ps3 and x360 incarnations. It's another story, another design, a completely different game, and this one is about speeding through levels, multiple routes, split-second reactions, etc. So far the media and player have praised the demos that had been shown so there's still a bit of hope with that one.

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SEGA: Hay guys remember when Sonic was good? We're bringing that back with the new one! Honestly this time!

Fans: Yay!

Sega: Oops lol, sorry guys.

Fans: Boo!

SEGA: Hay guys remember when Sonic was good? We're bringing that back with the new one! Honestly this time!

Fans: Yay!

Sega: Oops lol, sorry guys.

Fans: Boo!

SEGA: Hay guys remember when Sonic was good? We're bringing that back with the new one! Honestly this time!

Fans: Yay!

Sega: Oops lol, sorry guys.

Fans: Boo!

SEGA: Hay guys remember when Sonic was good? We're bringing that back with the new one! Honestly this time!

Fans: Yay!

Sega: Oops lol, sorry guys.

Fans: Boo!

Repeat for the next 7 titles.

QFE.

I've lost pretty much all trust for the responsible parties since Heroes promised and failed to deliver.

Never bought a Sonic game in my life. Only ever finished Sonic 3, so I'm not comparing. The 3D games simply came off as poor mascot showrunners to me.

Probably in the minority, though.

So you do realize that that was only "half a game," right?

Speaking of which, according to the stories I've heard the Genesis titles were rush jobs too. But the difference, I suppose, is that the gameplay heald up. Judging from those and messing around in the debug modes, I compare those titles to a stage set. The immediate surroundings were pretty and fun, but if you venture out of them to where you're not supposed to go, you'll see the underbelly that sadly never left the series and is now threatening to derail the entire thing.

Edit: OCR member Nineko has a whole collection of Genesis Sonic bugs up on YouTube.

http://www.youtube.com/profile?user=nineko

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Just watched the new videos that IGN posted. The game looks fast and fun. I pre-ordered it off Amazon yesterday for 44 bucks :) I hope it doesn't blow... PLEASE DON'T BLOW!

Also, I've beaten all sonics on the Genesis. I think the only reason we had a Genesis in our house was because of Sonic...

I really, really, really hope that SatSR does not suck.

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It's best if by default all of you stop comparing the 'newer' sonics to the old sonics. It would help appreciate the good parts of the new sonics.

It's a bit hard not to compare the old Sonics to the new ones, TonitoX2.

What drew people into the old Genesis (and Sega CD) Sonic games, were their simplicity, their colorful graphics, their happy tunes, and the huge levels that were still easy to explore around in. You had a jump button, and that was it. A special move here or there, but in the end, it was just simply a jump button... and you always knew where it was going to send you unless you were moving very fast. That single button, coupled with the speed the series is known for, enabled you to go just about anywhere. And usually what happened in the various stages were centered around those two aspects. Sonic Team struck a balance between giving you a lot explore, while keeping the means to do so simple, and easy to use.

By far the worst thing about the new Sonic games, is the utterly spastic camera. It never stays still. You can run in a straight line, and the moment an object gets slightly near it, the camera spins off in another direction... and this makes your character run in another direction. You were running along the narrow patch of ground, but now your character turned left as the camera panned to the right. The end result, is your death. This happens on the rail segments (the camera pans away so you can't see what's up ahead), the open ground (now you can't see the enemy that was coming at you), the jumping segments ("Hey! Where'd the platform go?! OH SHIIIIIIiiiii...!")... there isn't an aspect where the camera stayed in place even after you maneuvered it to get the best view. Even Boss battles and the simple act of jumping became frustrating.

Speaking of jumping, this becomes an exercise in cursing, as trying to land on things is made harder thanks to the camera wandering around. What was so fundamental in the 16bit (and 8bit) 2D Sonic games, was broken in the 3D ones. Running and jumping wasn't a means to reach new areas, but a new way to kill off your character thanks to not being able to see what you were jumping up at, or falling towards, half the time. The two most fundamental aspects of the Sonic franchise, haven't worked right since it went 3D.

As I said, I still enjoyed SA1 and even SA2. The 3D games have kept the colorful graphics for the most part, and they did a good job transforming the 2D characters into 3D ones. Hell, even the music manages to be upbeat and catchy most of the time. But the camera that has yet to be tamed by Sonic Team keeps screwing with everything. You can't go full steam, because you're given a hard time seeing what's ahead. And jumping around isn't made any easier, for much the same reason. The 3D Sonic games have had a huge dent put into the series' core gameplay thanks to that camera issue.

We know 3D cameras can work, as even the original Tomb Raider did a better job with it. Until Sonic Team can get a handle on coding a helpful camera, their 3D games are going to continue to have issues. And until the gameplay gets honed back down to what made the original games so memorable (do we have to go digging over a huge area just to find that one item... again?), the 3D games are going to be compared to the faster, streamlined, and less tedious 2D offerings.

It's not about nostalgia. It's about getting the series back to what made it a success in the first place...

*Sonic- Can run and spin dash

*Tails- Can fly for short distances and spin dash

*Knuckles- Can glide, climb walls, and spin dash.

* The goal is to go as fast as you can to the end of the level, or jump around and explore the level, reaching new areas/power ups as you do.

Make that into a 3D game, with a working camera (hell, try first person if nothing else), and Sonic could finally have a really good 3D game. No quests, no being chained to a team or partner, and no digging around to find the item to give to someone to blah blah blah. Just those four simple things. They're what made Sonic fun in the beginning, and they're what needs to be brought back.

Of course, these are all just my observations. I'm not stating anything as fact, but rather what I think is wrong, and what needs to happen... soon.

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Coop is right. Other teams have done the translation to 3d just fine(nintendo, konami in some titles, tecmo) so SEGA being(or having being) one of the most brilliant developers in the industry should get to work on whats making the franchises fail and not concentrate in shitty characters or pretty graphics(which aren't really THAT pretty). After 3 titles with lacking gameplay any company would have worked out the problems or just thrown the franchise away.

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Personally I also enjoyed Sonic Advance, Sonic Rush, 3d blast and Spinball in addition to the standard 1 2 3 and Knuckles.

Other than those, I've played Sonic Adventure but it wasn't quite right. The cheese OVERFLOWED from that game, and it wasn't even good cheese. Still, it was a game I played a lot when I was a kid, and so it's got sentimental value for me. I hear that the new 3d ones have gone completely downhill since Adventure, so I haven't purchased one since. The most recent sonic game I've bought was Mega Collection, which wasn't even a sonic game in it's own right.

Those screenshots for the new Sonic got my hopes up so high. It's a damn shame it couldn't live up to its name. Maybe someday soon they'll get the hedgehog back on track.

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I thoroughly enjoyed Sonic 1, CD, 2, 3, S&K.

I haven't had the same great experience I had from S3&K from ANY more recent Sonic game.

Spinball and 3D Blast were gimmicky spinoffs.

I disliked Sonic Adventure, SA2, Shadow, Heroes (These ALL had a terrible 3-D system).

Some liked Rush; I didn't. Total lack of creativity in level and boss design. TERRIBLE departure for the music; only 2 or 3 of the tracks didn't annoy the hell out of me.

Sonic Advance? Not bad, but not great. It clearly shows the GBA is not capable of BLAST PROCESSING.

I'm not expecting much from the upcoming Wii Sonic. We shall see how it turns out.

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Sonic Advance 1 was slow. Sonic Advance 2 was just like the oldschool Sonic games though. Sonic Advance 3 had a strange tagteam system that sometimes worked well and sometimes didn't. I like the inventive ideas of the newer Sonic games, but they surely don't know how to pull it together. Because most of the attacks are totally useless.

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Of course, these are all just my observations. I'm not stating anything as fact, but rather what I think is wrong, and what needs to happen... soon.

Hey those are technical flaws that came with that generation. It's just been a bad trip for games that were once to 2D making a transition to 3D. Nintendo at least got smart by releasing that Super Mario Bros DS that was in 3D yet 2D in the sense of gameplay. Then again that's why Nintendo is who they are. Nintendo was never about the money but about the games. The Sonic games like I said.. I really doubt it will go to that simple direction again. Corporate America ... gets real greedy. I'll put it as simple as this. You work for Sega, you got a family and kids to support, your boss tells you "Do it this way without diverting from how it is now", are you actually going to try to confront your boss about what YOU as an employee feel is right for the company and risk getting your arse handed to you? That's usually the case. Let's face it, the Sonic games are making them revenue just on the name itself. I doubt they will stop. It will have to get to a point that the formula gets so sick and tiring that even the new generation hates it. When that happens! They'll catch it and say "Well hey! These Sonic games aren't selling that well! What the hell happen? We need to do something new about!" It's just seems to be a habit here in America about not doing something right until it is to late >.>. If you notice these Sonic games are coming out left and right like pancakes. Quantity over quality?

Meh I really would be happy to see a next gen Sonic game with the aspects of the old ones. What I was really hoping for in a sense was a remake of the original 1 & 2 & 3. With every aspect intact! Just with the next gen graphics, I doubt they will make them not talk.. it was bound to happen. I am pretty sure Sega is saving that as their Ace in the hole in case all hell breaks loose.

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http://ps3.ign.com/articles/762/762185p1.html

http://www.gamespot.com/ps3/action/sonicthehedgehog/review.html?sid=6165288

This reminds me a bit of the x360 bomberman fiasco, only not as bad. Oh well, I guess there's still hope for the Wii version which is, as some people that played it have said, much better.

That review really is quite inaccurate. I've come to believe that the person writing that particular review merely based his review on what other reviewers had said, giving praise to things not worth praising (the voice cast... honestly. "ILL STOP U IBLIS TRIGGER". The only voices worth praising are Lacey Chabert's and Eggman's great voice acting.).

What many of these articles forget to mention is that Next had a rather good plot. (Especially for a Sonic game)

The level design is also not horrendous and simple as that article claims. For the first time, we actually get some of the level variety that the 3D Sonic games have been lacking. There ARE some level specific gimmicks, and each level's level design actually has a different flow. (Go play Sonic 2 or any Sonic game to figure this out. The difference between the designs of the zones.) Kingdom Valley, for instance, has probably the best segment in the game, with it's emphasis on multiple crossing paths to the finish, a definite throwback to the Genesis style.

In fact, if I had wrote that article, I would have to say the level design is the saving grace of the game.

Now onto the bad... The controls are definitely not too good. While, contrary to popular opinion, I believe Sonic's speed is fine, his game suffers from a really bugging homing attack. Shadow, on the contrary, I believe has the most entertaining gameplay of the bunch minus his vehicle segments (The controls on the vehicles, ESPECIALLY the motorcycle, are... not so good ;-;).

Silver's gameplay is fun, however it feels limited and too slow, mainly because his movement speed is a chore to work with. All of the secondary characters except for Blaze control horribly and have ridiculous attacks. It would be as bad if jumping, the primary attack mechanism in the 2D games, hadn't been rendered obsolete due to the inability to actually damage things with it.

The sad part is most of this could theoretically be fixed by a patch.

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Honestly, I like the new Sonic the Hedgehog game, I have yet to buy an XBOX 360, but I think I'll buy the game. I've seen the reviews, I don't care. I've played pretty much every Sonic game that has come out, and have enjoyed most of them (3D blast being the least favorite). The controls are not in the least perfect, but they're not awful (at least in my opinion).

In response to the reviews...

I quit reading reviews a long time ago. Critics have too much bias in them to do a decent review. Most of them try to make stupid jokes (aka XPLAY) just to make the review entertaining for themselves. If the game is entertaining to me, that's all I care about. Heck, XPLAY made fun of Shenmue so much I bought Shemue II for XBOX, and I'm enjoying it thoroughly. I guess you could say I enjoy "crappy games" like PLOK!, CHUCK ROCK, SUPER ADVENTURE ISLAND, P.N. 03, Star Fox Adventures, Star Fox Assault (I could on and on).

I'm sure most of you think I'm stupid for even thinking of buying the game, but honestly, I'm at a point where I don't even enjoy most of the games that are out anymore, even though I have the Nintendo Wii, XBOX, DS, etc. I just don't find as much entertainment with games like I used to, I don't know why, but maybe it's just about time for me to put games away for good.

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I personally think that SEGA should try two different things with Sonic. The first and most reliable would probably to revert to an Classic 2D Sonic style, and just try to make games based upon that premise. For the meantime, their 3D and Advance offerings are not too attractive in my opinion.

Secondly, I feel that they should try to make an Sonic RPG game, probably for the Wii or DS. I fondly remember Super Mario RPG for the SNES, and I personally think that Sonic could succeed as an RPG in an similar manner. The SatAM cartoon, the Sonic comics, and games could provide plenty of material for an RPG to be based upon, and I think that using the artistic stylings of the older Sonic games could lend an neat and rarely used look for the genre. Instead of trying to instill misplaced characterization into an platforming game or using teamwork systems, Team SEGA could focus those concepts into an RPG game where those ideas may have credible merit.

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I personally think that SEGA should try two different things with Sonic. The first and most reliable would probably to revert to an Classic 2D Sonic style, and just try to make games based upon that premise. For the meantime, their 3D and Advance offerings are not too attractive in my opinion.

Secondly, I feel that they should try to make an Sonic RPG game, probably for the Wii or DS. I fondly remember Super Mario RPG for the SNES, and I personally think that Sonic could succeed as an RPG in an similar manner. The SatAM cartoon, the Sonic comics, and games could provide plenty of material for an RPG to be based upon, and I think that using the artistic stylings of the older Sonic games could lend an neat and rarely used look for the genre. Instead of trying to instill misplaced characterization into an platforming game or using teamwork systems, Team SEGA could focus those concepts into an RPG game where those ideas may have credible merit.

Not to sound like a buzz kill, I highly doubt Sonic could convert into an RPG format at all. It would just further kill any sense of speed you have while playing it, unless they find some way to revolutionize the genre, and let's face it... with Sonic Team and SEGA in the states they've been, it isn't going to happen.

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Hey those are technical flaws that came with that generation. It's just been a bad trip for games that were once to 2D making a transition to 3D. Nintendo at least got smart by releasing that Super Mario Bros DS that was in 3D yet 2D in the sense of gameplay. Then again that's why Nintendo is who they are. Nintendo was never about the money but about the games. The Sonic games like I said.. I really doubt it will go to that simple direction again. Corporate America ... gets real greedy. I'll put it as simple as this. You work for Sega, you got a family and kids to support, your boss tells you "Do it this way without diverting from how it is now", are you actually going to try to confront your boss about what YOU as an employee feel is right for the company and risk getting your arse handed to you? That's usually the case. Let's face it, the Sonic games are making them revenue just on the name itself. I doubt they will stop. It will have to get to a point that the formula gets so sick and tiring that even the new generation hates it. When that happens! They'll catch it and say "Well hey! These Sonic games aren't selling that well! What the hell happen? We need to do something new about!" It's just seems to be a habit here in America about not doing something right until it is to late >.>. If you notice these Sonic games are coming out left and right like pancakes. Quantity over quality?

Technical flaws, perhaps. But they're technical flaws that have been there since 1999. How many games and years does it take to fix it? They can pile on all the extra characters they want, but that just comes off as trying to bury the problems under "new options"... as if they're saying, "It's still broken in all these areas, BUT LOOK HOW PRETTY IT IS AND AT ALL THE THINGS YOU CAN DO AND CHARACTERS YOU HAVE TO USE NOW!".

Like what was done with other franchises, Sonic Team needs to refocus the Sonic series... hit "reset" as it were. They need to whittle off all the extraneous stuff, and focus on getting the core gameplay right, which is something I feel wasn't quite accomplished in any of the 3D games I played. It's there to a degree, but it's not nearly at the same level as the 2D games in terms of intensity, speed and design.

...

To me, Sonic is close to hitting a critical crossroads. Other companies who have handled the Sonic series seem to be able to get the formula far more right than Sonic Team at the moment. The Sonic Advance series, Sonic Rush, Sonic 3D Blast... all these games felt more like Sonic games than what Sonic Team keeps putting out (at least up to Shadow the Hedgehog, which is the last one I bought). It's getting to the point that what Sonic Team are doing their franchise, is what Core was doing to the Tomb Raider franchise. Namely, hurting it.

I honestly think unless the Wii Sonic turns out to be something spectacular, it may be time to let someone else have a go at the 3D part of the series. Or at the very least, bring in some fresh blood to help Sonic Team. Sometimes when you work on something for so long, you can't see what's potentially wrong with it until you get an outside perspective. And frankly, I'm wondering if Sonic Team can see how broken parts of the latest games are.

As I said, I enjoy the series. I felt the 2D games were a blast (except Sonic Spinball), SA1+2 were fun, "Heroes" had its moments (the whole team gameplay got old though), and "Shadow" is at least playable (it's not as bad as the reviews made it out to be, yet it needed a lot more work to be sure). But to be honest, there were some serious flaws in those games that needed to be worked out... flaws which apparently haven't been if the reviews to the 360 and PS3 Sonic games are to be believed.

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