Question: Would this VG remix be accepted?

[Less Ashamed Of Self]

Sorry if this is an old issue or has been covered, but I was curious if console software related music could/would ever be considered for official ocremix status...

Y'know, like the various Wii songs, news channel, weather, mii, shopping channel, etc...

I'm not really sure of any other examples other than the wii stuff... but yeah... would there be an issue?

[Liontamer]

Sorry if this is an old issue or has been covered, but I was curious if console software related music could/would ever be considered for official ocremix status...

Y'know, like the various Wii songs, news channel, weather, mii, shopping channel, etc...

I'm not really sure of any other examples other than the wii stuff... but yeah... would there be an issue?

I believe I asked djp and he said no. It hasn't been hashed out, primarily because we haven't had anything good enough as a submission to warrant the discussion. So the short answer is "not likely, but no one's significantly tried."

[Miletus]

If this is acceptable then I demand that someone does a mix of the music that was on the Sega Flash cds.

[zircon]

I believe I asked djp and he said no. It hasn't been hashed out, primarily because we haven't had anything good enough as a submission to warrant the discussion. So the short answer is "not likely, but no one's significantly tried."

He seemed pretty adamant...

"Well, it's not from a game. It's from a game system."

[Dhsu]

So the short answer is "not likely, but no one's significantly tried."

[eternal Zero]

I think he meant to add "on OCR"?

[Less Ashamed Of Self]

Sweet Dhsu, much appreciated.

But really, is remixing game console software music that much worse than remixing really obscure games or games that weren't even released? Are we catering to the formatting around here more than straight-up VG culture and nostalgia?

That Playstation Black Disc mix was removed right? I'll admit that wasn't exactly a shining example...

anyway, I'm just playing devil's advocate here.

[djpretzel]

I distinguish music written for operating systems from music written for games, specifically.

The music for creating Miis, for example, isn't different from the soundtrack for the little demo video that comes with Windows XP. They're both written to accomplish a purpose related to the use of an operating system. We definitely wouldn't allow a ReMix of the XP video, so the Wii stuff is out, too.

You can use a PC to play games, and you can use a Wii to browse the web, so as the line between computers and consoles continues to blur, I think it's important to be very specific: game soundtracks is what we're about.

[Less Ashamed Of Self]

I distinguish music written for operating systems from music written for games, specifically.

The music for creating Miis, for example, isn't different from the soundtrack for the little demo video that comes with Windows XP. They're both written to accomplish a purpose related to the use of an operating system. We definitely wouldn't allow a ReMix of the XP video, so the Wii stuff is out, too.

You can use a PC to play games, and you can use a Wii to browse the web, so as the line between computers and consoles continues to blur, I think it's important to be very specific: game soundtracks is what we're about.

Just for that I'm gonna make a killer Mii mix.

[Thylacine]

Well, what about the Everybody Votes channel? That's kind of a game, since you can predict how people will vote and from that change personal attributes, much as a character gains experience in an RPG.

What I'm getting at is that eventually the line in the sand will need to be drawn, and I'd much rather it be drawn before people invest time into a remix for OCR.

It may not hurt to hash out some rough guidelines for "game" rules. Just something that states if it qualifies for posting, much as you have those guidelines in the department of music quality. That issue is coming up fast.

...Or do such guidelines exist and I have yet to find them?

EDIT 1: Removed pointless banter.

Also, here is the quote from the submission guidelines concerning games.

Though there will always be popular favorites, we suggest that ReMixing obscure songs that people probably haven't heard yet is just as viable if not moreso than doing popular (ahem, Squaresoft) stuff. But it's TOTALLY your call. The music does have to be from a game, however - it can't be a bonus track off a commercial OST that wasn't actually in the game. In addition, popular movie themes (i.e. Star Wars, Indiana Jones, etc.) or commercial songs that happened to be used in game soundtracks are not valid ReMix material. The music has to have been composed for the game, not simply used within it.

It's clear on what's excluded, but not on what's included.

[Jaybell]

Yeah, I was wondering this myself. I was toying with the idea of making a Mii Channel mix.

Personally, I see no reason to reject Game System Music Type Remixes. But of course, as DJP said, there would be some people who would make a remix of an obscure Windows XP jingle and cry bias when it gets rejected.

So how do we distinguish between consoles and computers? Easy.

A console was designed primarily to play video games, and secondarily to surf the web, play dvds, make miis, etc. A computer, on the other hand, wasn't designed primarily with video games in mind.

That's not to say the designers of a computer were like "NO VIDEO GAMES ON MY COMPUTER EVER EVER." They were like "okay, it can do all this stuff, surf the webs, run crazy programs, and all that stuff. oh hey it can play games too. cool."

That's a terrible description, so hopefully you see what I'm getting at.

[Liontamer]

Here is another quote from the submission guidelines concerning games:

You can ReMix music from any game, on any platform, from any time period...

That's the "inclusion" aspect, and it's far-reaching but specific. The Standards then go on to name exclusions. But there is no inherent allowance of movie soundtracks, mainstream music, or other music not created for a game.

When you go "That's kind of a game", you're just trying to stretch things to fit personal preferences. Nah, Wii music that's not specifically made for a game is a no-go. The Mii creation music is not from a game. Wii Bowling's BGM, fair game.

[KWarp]

I don't completely buy that argument because I'm not convinced that the Mii channel isn't a game. I would consider online doll-maker programs as games, as well as race customization modes in Oblivion. How does OCR define these activities?

I dropped by Wikipedia, but their definition of a game is strategically vague. *sigh*

[Less Ashamed Of Self]

Time to split hairs eh? I love starting semi-productive discussions.

Well the line can't be drawn at games with specifically objective-based games (ie: you achieve tasks to complete the game) because there's already some mario paint remixes no one wants to see leave. Mario Paint isn't much more than a glorified MS Paint and only 1 of the 3 passed mixes is even from the 'game' portion of the game. It's not very different from the Mii software at all;

...

and YET... it totally is. No one pays for the Mii software, it's free with the system. Mario Paint is a cartridge, paid for individually, that gets placed in the SNES system.

But wait; that still leaves further exceptions. What about the Sonic & Knuckles opening cartridge which, I believe, played a song and showed a special screen when you tried to play a non-compatible game... and didn't gameboy camera have that mother 2 song in it? What about individually purchased browser 'games' for the dreamcast or ds? What about electroplankton and other game-less games?

I'm not trying to be a bitch here. I'm not gonna actually be the one to push the envelope here, seeing what 'not-entirely-a-game' remixes would frustrate the panel the most... but the more I think about it the more exceptions I see to this 'what-constitutes-a-gamey-enough-game' issue.

Thoughts?

[djpretzel]

We could treat mobygames or other entities as authorities; I'm sure they've worked through similar issues before.

The standards as written pretty much indicate that if it's debatable at all, we reserve to make the judgment call on a case-by-case basis, which is safer (and far more concise) than trying to get philosophical and conclusive on the subject.

[djpretzel]

What if you used the songs from the Wii channels as a part of a fuller remix about a real game?

Just to give it some flair. Y'know, to express yourself.

Incorporation of non-game material used in submissions needs to be minimal, but is allowed with a narrow range of acceptable use.

[DarkeSword]

Time to split hairs eh? I love starting semi-productive discussions.

Well the line can't be drawn at games with specifically objective-based games (ie: you achieve tasks to complete the game) because there's already some mario paint remixes no one wants to see leave. Mario Paint isn't much more than a glorified MS Paint and only 1 of the 3 passed mixes is even from the 'game' portion of the game. It's not very different from the Mii software at all;

...

and YET... it totally is. No one pays for the Mii software, it's free with the system. Mario Paint is a cartridge, paid for individually, that gets placed in the SNES system.

But wait; that still leaves further exceptions. What about the Sonic & Knuckles opening cartridge which, I believe, played a song and showed a special screen when you tried to play a non-compatible game... and didn't gameboy camera have that mother 2 song in it? What about individually purchased browser 'games' for the dreamcast or ds? What about electroplankton and other game-less games?

I'm not trying to be a bitch here. I'm not gonna actually be the one to push the envelope here, seeing what 'not-entirely-a-game' remixes would frustrate the panel the most... but the more I think about it the more exceptions I see to this 'what-constitutes-a-gamey-enough-game' issue.

Thoughts?

Just addressing your specific examples:

• That S&K song the race results song from Sonic 3.
  
• Mother 2 song in Gameboy Camera? It'd be Mother 2 remix, obviously!
  
• Browsers aren't games, period. Nothing ambiguous about that.
  
• Electroplankton doesn't have music. It's a game that lets you make music.

I do agree, however, that the Mii Channel could be a game. My older sister and her friends once "played it" for three hours, just having fun making likenesses of people. I know many other people are the same way. The Mario Paint analogy is a good one., and like KWarp said, it's like a doll-maker game.

[Xenon Odyssey]

If OCR will reject a Solitaire remix, then of course they'll reject a remix of Wii menu screen music.

:]

[Jaybell]

Incorporation of non-game material used in submissions needs to be minimal, but is allowed with a narrow range of acceptable use.

orly? 10char

[KWarp]

I'm starting to see where the limits are. OSes and browsers are just a means to access content, so music composed for those mediums don't fall under game. However, the ambiguity does appear when games and browsers merge into a single entity like the Wii's Photo Channel. As DJP said, those issues fall into judgement territory. That works for me.

(philosophy is fun )

[Liontamer]

orly? 10char

As of this decision, we've since added that rule. An old example like yours is a moot point, as we're not going to remove a mix where that policy wasn't yet in effect.

[PassivePretentiousness]

the wii menu "feels" like a title screen to a video game just as much as an os imo.

the songs were indirectly made specifically made for video games.

I'd be for letting those mixes through.

whatever you choose is cool. those songs aren't anything special anyways.

[Less Ashamed Of Self]

It really is a case by case thing. It's not like certain mixes haven't brought on controversy before, and I'm sure more mixes will bring on controversy again.