Gario

Well, for what you wrote it for, it should do fine. The melody is drown in the arrangement. I'd recommend bringing out the melody whenever you can a bit more (probably by making the arrangement a touch lighter or simply make it louder in places). It's not that it sucks, for me, it's just that I can't hear it through everything else very well . Also, it sounds a little too dramatic for me in some areas (although I don't know what they want, personally). It's probably the horns in some spots . You got the 'serious down', but it seems a little too much so. It doesn't suck, to me; it could be that you as the composer can hear something that only you can hear, so here's me letting you know that the rest of us think it's fine . Looking at what they asked for, I commend you for writing this - it's a difficult style combination to write. Good job.

Sorry, SLyGeN, if what I'm saying sounds like a personal attack or something; I don't mean it like that. Where I'm coming from is that the purpose of analysis IS for the listener to gain an understanding of how to feel the music and why (or so I believe, personally), so if one interprets something one way it implies that is how they're hearing it. If you interpret the music one way but hear it another... well, that's bad theory practice, and it's done a whole lot in the field. Don't go there. I'm merely trying to show you other ways of thinking about the music - you've got one way down very well, great! Now here's another way to think about music (I wouldn't point you towards Cohn if I felt you didn't get the concept of keys and modes perfectly, so take this as a compliment, please!). No, I was directing you towards another theory of music because I thought you'd be interested, not because I think your stupid for thinking in keys. In this day and age a full undertanding of keys will get you hearing and understanding 90% of what's out there, and your probably able to comfortably listen to another 8% without understanding it (and the last 2% delves into some real wierd shit that most people won't listen to, anyway). I'm pointing to some of the theory from the 8% bracket. ...I'm sorry, but I lol'd at that. I've got a Bachelor of Science in Psychology (no joke)... I'd take the recommendation, but it's too late . The field I'd be terrible at is Human Relations, as I seem to come off as an ass more often than not...

It's cool, Wartorn city is good, too I just want something there, so if Rozo's is good for the ship I'll write something for the city. It's what I get for doing a late WIP .

That was my point. Wagner was an example of the type of music I was describing, there. I was hoping you'd see that music exists where listening for a key will cut off most of what you can hear in the music. As that is some of my favorite kind of music, that's ended up being how I write and hear music The response to the Wagner song confirms that you believe that, deep down, the piece must be in some key, there, as it uses triads and the like. If you think in keys for much of later romantic music and all 20th century music it'll limit your thinking and you'll miss out on the bigger picture (which was quite a revelation to me, as I used to listen for a key in anything with triads). Wagner breaks out of the concepts of 'keys' and 'modes' as the piece never establishes any key at any one point. He uses an 'A' to begin with, but it is never established as a tonic using a true cadential function. The way he writes so much dissonance on the metric beat destroys the concept of 'consonance' and 'dissonance' altogether, as well, so the piece is truly one of the first 'non-tonal' pieces of music I can think of. Think about it - if you can't tell what is consonant or dissonant, then how can you tell what the scale or key really is? God help me, they have. Putting names to scales on a piece like that, however, is an exercise in futility. By the time the 'scale' is established it changes to an entirely different 'scale', so it doesn't help identify what is happening in the music in any way at all (Like you said, non-functional). There's always a new guy trying to tell the establishment that the piece must be tonal because it uses 'keys' and 'triads', but if one listens to it in that fashion they'll get lost in the constant amount of change involved. . If you want to know the proper theory behind how that particular piece works, read up on Parsimonious Voice Leading, or Neo-Riemannian theory (I think Richard Cohn wrote an article on that one in 1997); you'll see that it doesn't use the concept of 'keys', yet still works in the frame of triads and the like. It is a more proper explination of how that piece works. Hopefully this will clear up my other comment, abg; If you had 2 good apples among 2 rotten ones, you'd be able to find the good apples pretty easily. If there were 2 good apples among 500 rotten ones they'd be much more difficult to find. In both cases, there are 2 good apples (absolute amount), but the field that they are in is larger in one case over the other, so it seems like there are less in there than before (relative amount). Hope that clears it up . By the way, nice find, Lunarfall )

Ack, Rozo's got the spaceship? Blast, I thought I mentioned it... Oh well, I'm working on a WIP right now, and it works for the wartorn city, so I'll get 'dibs' on that now before anything else happens. WIP should be done sometime today; my comp has been acting up the last few days, but it's giving me an opening to do something right now . I'm good for writing area specific tracks

Wow, thanks for the info, Blake! I guess I'm now writing a track for a spaceship So, according to this, we're also making a network and a battle song for the area? That's fine by me...

If your going for that effect then use 8-bit samples! Here's an example of going for the 8-bit era style... http://remix.thasauce.net/song/RTS0152/ He actually uses a program that writes NES chiptune music (as you can tell by the NSF file), but you don't need to take it that far, if your just going for the effect (although you can, as there are programs that do this for free). Let me rephrase what I said about the Powerglove song before - It's not that the samples were bad, it's that the samples were wrong. Power to oldskool I can see what you meant by making the stuff repetitive for a reason, but does it have to be? Look at this song - it's in a pop style, yet when he 'repeats' anything, it isn't really a repeat - it has variations to some of the elements. The variations don't need to be that great, they just need to shake it up a little. http://www.box.net/shared/dlbz52kfvh (By the way, this is floating in the WIP forums right now, credit goes to AkumajoBelmont) I can understand the repeats for the sake of having someone sing over them, as making the adjustments like he did may step on the toes of the buyer a little (although I personally would do it for the sake of the music ). Oh, and I just heard the Knights of 2021 song, and I liked it. It was fun. it had similar problems as before, but I liked it, nonetheless

Alright, glad we cleared things up, so onto the music Like I said earlier, I dislike 'blanket critiques' so I'll only look at a few songs here and give you my thought in more detail. Listening to Powerglove, now... First thing I notice is that it's far to quiet. It's clean but quiet. I don't know if that's the doing of the player or not, but as I hear it the music has no power at all. The drums are very bland; you need a lot of variety in there. The bouncy beat is nice, but it cannot hold up the music for four straight minutes. The samples used are quite terrible. By the sound of your other things, there, you do have better samples, you just aren't using them. Why not? Isn't VG music worth it ? The volumes of what you do have there are too similar and static. It is difficult to pull the melody out of the harmonies and bass. I like the textures that you use, though, so it's nice to be able to hear them... just give the melody & bass some more dynamic prominence. On the topic of dynamics, they don't change enough throughout the music, either. Harmonically speaking, it isn't bad nor wrong, but it gets a little stale towards the end. I'd vary some of the harmonic material every so often to keep the listeners on their toes. Melodically speaking it's fine (it goes well with the bouncy nature of the rest of the music), but again it gets old by the second time around. At 3:03 it sounds like the music is getting a good breath of fresh air. I like that part, it just needs to come in earlier . Now, I understand that this is supposed to be video game music to that can account for some of the problems (like the stale repetitive nature of many aspects); if that's true then I'd suggest you end the music with a fadeout at the beginning of an intended loop. That way, people will see that the repetitive nature is due to the construct of VG music and not the music itself. Now on the song 'Pump You Up' there is an issue on balance. As my brother would say, it sounds like 'the drummer did the mixing', as the drums really dominate over everything else. If you want us to get into it we need more bass! On a song like this the bass and drum are crucial... you've only got one part! Don't forget the other parts, either; the bass and drums are important, but the other parts need to be heard, too. The samples are better than the Powerglove song, for sure, but they still seem lacking. They're very dry for such a song. I'd suggest some more reverb on this. Again, as I said before for the other song, the harmonies, melodies, dynamics, etc. are quite static. It eventually tires me to listen to because very little changes throughout the song. In the beginning of the song the ideas you present are interesting and could go to interesting places, but you repeat a lot of material without variation. This will make the music boring. Now you see why I prefer single song posts, as writing for every song you wrote would take me days . However, I am noticing some trends in your music from listening to some of your others. -They are too quiet. -The soundscape isn't filled out very well, meaning your music doesn't have enough lows, mids or highs, thus making it sound 'empty' (For some genres that's not a problem, but this is for the music in general on the site). -There isn't enough use of dynamics. -The sample quality is somewhat low, and the use of tools like reverb, delay, etc. is minimal and therefore unable to make up for it. -The music is often too repetitive. By the way, if you look at any of my WIPs or contest posts (except for early ones - don't use those for reference ) you'll notice that the music is louder and the samples sound better. This isn't because I have better samples, it's simply because I use tools to mask the quality of the samples (such as reverb and delay) or I simply limit the use of the samples to cases where that particular quality is desired. I haven't downloaded/bought a single sample patch for anything as of yet (not suggesting you go that route, BTW), but I manage to make my music sound acceptable. Darkesword does an even better job making simple samples sound great than I do, by the way, so check out some of his posts to get a clear view of what I'm talking about. I'm giving some constructive criticism, here, so don't take this the wrong way. Take it from me, it's very difficult to compose music, especially from so many different genres like your doing there. On the brighter side of things, you've made some money on your music, so you've certainly got a better sense of business than I do... Hope this helps. BTW - just needed to point out that the 'Progressive Hip Hop' sounds a lot like Zangeif's theme from SF2 at some points... sorry, this is a VG remixing site, after all

Hey if I get IRC working for the next OHC I'll harass her for you to get the vocals done! I'm waiting for another update here, too!

lol, I know that. I know what and how a specific mode is used because I can listen in keys and modes if I need to (which is, obviously, a lot), it's just not how I listen to something the first time around. My own music personally gears towards neo-reimannian parsimony & 20th century counterpoint, so that is how I hear music at the moment, as well. I hear lines and the interaction of the voices; the harmonic layout is secondary.Point is, I listen to keys as a secondary byproduct of the music, not the primary concrete setting. Listen to Wagner's prelude to the opera 'Tristan und Isolde' and tell me what 'key' it's in, I dare you (If you say A minor or A major, trust me, you'll be dead wrong ). Perhaps this is an extention of your thoughts, abg, but do you think it's possible that it's not that fewer games are coming out that have excellent soundtracks, but that more games are coming out altogether (with not-so-good soundtracks) and it's the relative amount of good music coming out that's affected because of this, not the absolute amount? *Watches the dead horse continue to tapdance*

Ah, that's understandable. T'was a mere suggestion; looks like the idea may not be applicable in every case... (I may use some of the harmonies, though ) And thanks, Rozo; I'll see if I can get IRC working.

Sorry, dude; we still have no life here, let us squabble in peace . T'was the point I was getting at. Using something that is uplifting as the theme for that song and using such strange out of place timbres and use of space creates an odd contrast that doesn't bring the odd instrumentation to me, but drags down the originally cheery tune. Like BGC said, though, it's truly subjective, in this case, so neither one of us can come to a true conclusion. Actually, I personally don't think of music in 'keys' or the like, as it limits me in my writing, so I'm probably at a disadvantage here

Here's another thought for the sake of continuity - How does everyone feel about putting up a general theme to the game, that it - Just a few simple motifs that we all let run throughout our songs so the soundtrack sounds more like a whole. Just a thought, it would add consistency to the game's soundtrack. Just tossing that idea out. Thanks for letting me know about level 3, Fireslash, btw

Quick question about the list... Is it Garian or Gario that has level 3 claimed? Let me know either way (if he claimed it in the dark, there, I won't be upset )... The name's close, so I can't be sure.

Your new here, so I'm glad to meet you. The things that you've put up seem like demos of things that you want to sell to us; if that's true, then please tell us in your thread that your selling music. I personally have no need for it, so thanks for the offer... I don't know what to say about the 'looking for contacts' thing. If your looking for contacts you should try to get to know the people here. What your thread currently looks like at the moment is that your trying to sell us a product that we have in abundance here already. Try breaking in here by getting involved with the projects, contests, WIP forums, etc.; that'll allow people to get to know you & your music better, thus adding to your list of 'contacts'. As to how I personally like to be linked to music - I would rather listen to one at a time than listen to a whole bunch. It allows me to give helpful, specific commentary rather than a 'blanket critique' on everything... which doesn't do you any good. By the look of the pricetag on them, I'd say you aren't willing to allow any of us to download or stream using one of these sites, which is a shame... It's how OCR people prefer their links to the music, in general. I sound harsh, here, but I'm trying to help. If you want contacts, be willing to give some things to the community. In return we'll give our support. Cheers!

An unclaimed track (track 3)? Hey, if no one else is doing it, I'll do a WIP for ya He makes a good point about this, so unless you want a variety score you should probably address this Gimme a day or two to whip something up. It'll be electronic, as that seems fitting for the game right now, but if you come up with something different for the cohesive style I'll be flexible. Edit: Alright, Industrial it is .

Weird quote, but it's caught my interest. Thanks for that link; I've been looking for that for some time now ... SLyGeN, don't you think it's overgeneralizing things a tad if you say something in major is 'happy', in minor is 'sad'. dorian/'heroic', etc.? Due to how things are used historically, we tend to make these associations, but the key isn't the only thing that determines the mood. I like the Mario RPG battle song, so lets use it as an example. For sure, it doesn't sound dire, that I can agree with. Instead, the music sounds very uplifting and bouncy. The instrumentation, though, is very unique in how it's used. Instead of conventionally bright instruments, it uses convoluted instruments (like that... thing... playing the theme in the beginning). It then uses contrasts of the instrumentation to achieve tense moments. In fact, everything in that song conflicts with that major sound, so the listener doesn't feel 'good' when listening to the song, they feel engaged... or at least I do. Everyone's different . It's funny, I didn't used to like the battle theme for Mario RPG for your very reason (It's in Major! Yuck!!), but it's grown on me over the years. Listen to elements outside of the key and notice the contrasts and tensions created Oh, just a small extention to your post, ABG (playing the advocate to your advocate, here ) - Do you think that the NES - N64 era is the most popular to remix because the music was better, or is it that remixing a song where the developers had limitations is easier than remixing a song that the composer had full reign on the production? Really, it's easier to add to older music that only had four channels of blips to use as it gives the remixer room to add whatever s/he wants to add to the mix. If the song sounds complete it can be intimidating to start a remix as there is so much material to pick and chose from, leaving little room for personal interpretation... Just a thought.

lol, couldn't have put it better myself... Music theorists have a cruel sense of humor...

Wow, ABG, it seems that this one thread has increased your post count by 11.1% and your word count by roughly 10,000%. Congrats, you've managed to out-word me (and that's no easy task ). I read your posts (Yes, all of them here), and I hear you... Commercialization has taken over the VGM business, and what can be done about it, nowadays? I say some savant comes out and pulls a 'Wagner' - writing the story, writing the program, making the graphics, balancing the game and writing the music all on his/her own! Bwah, that would give the person all artistic direction and allow for a perfectly complete game to come out! Until then, though, we're screwed in the whole VGM business, as one artist (graphics designer) will disagree with the output of another artist (the music writer), who will both be hammered by their director (the non-artist-money-maker). It's not hopeless, but VGM isn't what it used to be, at the moment.

Woot! Thanks for the vid, BGC; it's always great to see really good finished work from the workstation. And for the laughs... ... needless to say, people on there do not read the comments OR watch the entire movie when commenting. Seriously, he couldn't take the time to read the comments? You answer that damn question at the end of the vid and you say that in your comments (I guess he had more pressing matters and couldn't wait through TWO DAMN MINUTES! Impatient dipshit...)....Sorry, stupid people piss me off. Nice vid!

Wow, now that I hear it, it DOES sound like an oh-so-familiar theme from SF2! Like I said before, though, the chord use is pretty common; it's gonna sound like a LOT of things . (You're comment about the Top Gun rip-off now makes sense )

I appreciate the feedback, really, but next time listen to the latest version of a WIP before giving feedback (2.0). I believe that's on the front page as well as in the threads. It addresses the main lead issue by beefing it up with detuners, it uses a different bass drum and cleans up the mixing further. Thanks for the feedback, though; I'll be posting 2.1 soon enough. Now, about the transitions - What bothers you about it, specifically? It seems to flow quite well to me. As for the structure it's quite organized (Simply a set of variations - Intro - A B C A' B' C' A'' B'' C'' - Outro), but if something is amiss feel free to let me know. As for the mixing quality... well thanks! I always thought that was the area I lacked . Oh, and I'm mixing on headphones

Alright! I've finally addressed the bass drum problem! It's sounding much better due to that . I've also beefed the lead a little bit with some detuning to give it some more depth. Rozovian, I did what I could with the out of tune sound in the beginning. It's better, but because of what it's doing it'll never be perfect. I like the imperfect sound though . Personally I think there is some tiny TINY things that need to be done (merely some volume adjusting on one or two things), but I think it's FINALLY ORC ready. Ok, any comments? http://www.box.net/shared/nv7dg2vls3

To add to the Groundman topic (this applies to Coldman, as well), the samples used are pretty low quality. Personally, I don't care too much (especially since my music uses out of the box samples, as well), but OC does terribly. In the Coldman song the only source theme is from 1:24 to 2:12. Out of 5 minutes of music this comes out to roughly 1/6th of the song having the source. If you want a rule of thumb, there should be roughly 50 - 70% recognizable source material with the rest being interpretive. Of course there are exceptions, but that's a good estimate. Now, what would I do with Coldman? The buildup from 0:00 to 1:24 doesn't have enough activity to keep the listener interested; either cut it shorter or make changed in the structure of the build up (perhaps use the second part of the song's harmonies at 0:47 - that'll be a good change for the listener). It's not what to add, but what to cut... One of my teachers told me that the most important tool to a composer is the eraser, not the pencil. From 1:24 to 2:12 the four repetitions is boring. I'd cut two of the repetitions completely. 2:12 to the end... Repeat after repeat after... Well, playing a part twice without variation can be done, but it drives the listener nuts if the song is repeating THAT much... not to mention that other than the harmonies there is no source in there. Personally I'd rewrite the rest after that point completely and use repetitions much less. I know that my suggestions were simply to cut, cut, CUT... but sometimes that's a necessary part of writing. When revising, you should back up what you've got so you'll always have it stored just in case you don't like the newer renditions. After cutting it much shorter (it'll probably be around 1 minute long after the cuts), start writing more sections with the melody being the centerpiece and not the harmonies, and make your sections shorter. Use fragments of the melody so the theme isn't stale. Vary the harmonies under the source melody. Use a different theme over the same source harmonies. The list of what you can do goes on and on... It's tricky to figure out what to do musically with the source, but take your time. Don't be discouraged; you'll get it soon enough .

Alright, I'll try that out; if it works then perhaps I'll join you next time