AngelCityOutlaw

Chris means @zircon & @djpretzel in this case. I think they've gone over it to some extent here on the forums, but I don't remember where. That said, even if you didn't use/reference the music of FF15, Catherine, just invoking it for use in an audio drama Kickstarter means you'd need their legal department's blessing, just like @MindWanderer mentioned. And you're most likely not going to get that. The reason djp & zircon's situation turned out differently is because djp knows several lawyers and was able to communicate on their level thanks to their help. If you don't have that, you could certainly just do the KS without permission, see it get shut down and HOPE they're willing to engage in a back and forth dialogue with you over at Squenix legal, but that's a very risky and mostly likely fruitless route. Would recommend not attempting that.

I dig it. But I can agree that with real guitars it would sound even better. 

It would be sacrilege to exclude Twisted Metal

Well, I specifically said there's nothing wrong with things like cosplay if that's what you want to do, but I likened the creative ownership of it as being the same as remixing. 

It's not about whether or not it can be confused for someone else: It's about the inescapable reality that it deliberately uses someone else's work as its foundations. Not influence, not imitation, etc. Just straight up revision. That is why I will not hear an argument otherwise.
There's nothing pessimistic about this — it's simply an honest assessment of what an arrangement is.
If you want to be a creator, then it simply makes sense to value your own work more than revisionist ones. This is a perfectly sensible stance as to why someone like myself can lose their appetite for remixing. 
I created this thread to see what individual reasons are and how they differ, not to pass judgement on their reason, but have now spent three pages basically saying: "I'd just rather write my own stuff because it's uniquely mine and no one else has any part in its creation". A position I feel I've adequately justified and defended, and see no need to do so further.

Basically, I said that it's all about what the library samples rather than how it necessarily sounds (since all the pro ones at least have good recording quality) and it's best to get this so it can be done within one patch. Even in such a case, you can still delegate articulations to separate tracks if you really want to.
A barfight ensued over the second (of lesser-importance) part whereas I was expecting hell to break loose over the former.
Indeed. Which is why I maintain that if one is in the market to buy a "brand-spankin new" library, or their first one ever, it makes little sense to go for one that only offers the individual elements.
Reaper changed my life.
Well, I actually meant a sustain/footpedal switching to the legato articulations when depressed, and all others remaining on velocity when not, but the organ-pedal switching idea would be absolutely amazing were it not for my strings presently being the only keyswitch library I use regularly!

I disagree with this.
The better the sample library, the more intuitive it should be. I define a "mediocre" sample library as one that is incapable of playing a melody authentic to the rhythmic vitality of that instrument within a single patch.
Allow me to offer a somewhat different opinion here:
You cannot "get around" mediocre samples if realism is your goal for the simple fact that if you don't have a sample of something, your virtual instrument cannot play it. You can try to "fake" something by manipulating the sounds, but that almost always sounds obvious. So it's best to just write to the samples' limited ability.
A good sample library will feature all standard articulations for the instrument, most importantly notes of differing lengths (Cinesamples is great at this), and you can do it all within one instance of Kontakt or whatever. East West Symphonic Orchestra fails on this account. It doesn't have any meaningful variation in short notes and it's a nightmare to use. You'll spend hours making it play the line you want, likely across several patches for one instrument, only to realize that a better library could've done it in a matter of minutes. So much "orchestra" music now is just "chord with left hand, melody with right" and banking on the fact that the lines have "true legato" as being "realistic" even though no orchestra plays exclusively legato through every phrase. Symphobia is a textbook case of such a "mediocre" library.
If it takes you hours and hours to craft a believable phrase, and even then it ends with a mixed result, it's a sure sign the sample library is garbage. And take it from me, a guy who spent a lot of money and time on this in recent years: A lot of "budget" libraries really suck.
It's not the advice anyone wants to hear, but the reality is, if you're serious about making realistic mockups, there are no "tricks" anyone is going to be able to give you — outside of learning more about orchestration of course — but it is inevitable that you need more capable samples eventually.
 

Ehhh... Whether or not it happens with one person really doesn't say whether or not it's something that will happen with everyone. Zircon is a talented guy, and he's really made a name for himself outside of OCR with his music and business (which is a pretty awesome feat, by the way), but for every Zircon out there there's plenty of people who have Willrock's experience of virtually no audience transfer. I'm sure having an audience for your arrangements doesn't hurt your chances as a popular musician and/or accomplished composer elsewhere, but there's evidence (at least in this thread, anyway) that it can be a pretty insignificant boon for your other endeavors.
A combination of how good you are at marketing and networking is more likely going to give you better luck in having a large audience for your original work than having a large audience for your arrangements, I suspect, which Zircon also has quite a knack for. I understand that it can seem fruitless to logically discuss something like whether or not audiences transfer from one person's composition styles or not, but let's be honest - that's a pretty relevant thing for a lot of arrangers who want to make a living off their music in the future. Whether or not the audiences transfer from your free releases to your work that you profit off of could easily impact whether you're willing to arrange video game music, in the first place (which is how this topic cropped up in here).
If someone could crack that nut and figure out how to effectively transfer their audience, that'd be a very useful thing to know. It's at least an interesting and relevant topic to discuss, imo.

Congrats, man!

Well, I still try to ReMix... not as much anymore, but not because I lost interest. I'm in grad school, 3rd year, so by that time I just have a lot on my plate. (Officially became a Ph.D. candidate starting May.)
I finished 1 recently, which I think I started in May, combining Chrono Cross and Pokemon Super Mystery Dungeon, and I still found a lot of enjoyment in the process of doing it. I don't have all my supplies with me in WSU, but it forces me to be more particular about harmonic and melodic cooperation instead of production and sound design, and instead I fix up the production on holiday breaks and such.
Either way, I still ReMix, it's still as fun as it used to be, and I do so BECAUSE it's fun, not because I feel any obligation to do so.

Larry thinks it's anything that uses source less than 50% of the time in the arrangement.
I kid, but it certainly is an interesting question. I remember ages ago where Deadmou5 accused someone else of "stealing their material" because the song in question used a similar chord progression to one of their songs ("Some Chords", I believe), and the community was pretty split on it. I was of the belief that chords are universal, but I was havin' people accuse me of not being a musician because of how wrong they thought I was.
Oh boy.
So yeah, there is a level of subjectivity and culture laid into that question. I'm personally of the opinion that there is nothing truly new and original in tonal music, so if the music transforms a theme or source even a little bit I consider it something new and interesting. However, that's coming from a musical nihilism of sorts - the belief that since nothing is original anymore, everything becomes interesting and worth listening to in it's own right, regardless of how small the variance. Hell, even different performances of the exact same piece can grant a keen listener a very different experience, as long as you don't hang yourself up on the originality of it too much.
That certainly doesn't cover any legal definitions of when something becomes the arranger's own piece of copyrighted music, but as far as I'm concerned if you're putting your own spin on some music (changing genre, re-arranging the themes, etc.) that piece philosophically becomes your own.

mmm, if I can expand on your point without derailing too much - When I started remixing, my thought process was "people who hear my remixes will be interested in what I do" - which generally isn't the case in my experience. Yes, you get people who follow you and what you do, but in general, people will just stick to where they want to be. People who find me on youtube stay on youtube, people on OCR stay on OCR, people on New Retro Wave stay there etc etc. The mistake I made was assuming that people were interested in ME, but they're just interested in whatever site I use to promote myself. Suddenly, instead of having a bunch of "WillRock fans" i've got OC Remix fans, New Retro Wave fans, Ubiktune Fans, who just happen to know about my stuff, but not enough to REALLY look into me and what else I do. As a result, it feels like i've got a selection of split up mini-fanbases who like specific things I do in specific places, and then there's the 1 in 100 who actually follow me. 
I actually remember James Landino discussing how to become popular and he said something similar to this: Stay in one place, and become known for something very specific and corner that area. Don't split everything up and get disjointed groups of people listening to your stuff who don't really know or care about you. I put a LOT of effort into my OCR rep so as a result, i'm much more known for my remixes, and as a result, my originals suffer because I can not promote them here, not in the way I would like, and my original stuff is a bit spread out due to issues getting my stuff released where I want. I would say its not silly to try and figure out what it is you want to do because that opens you up to different fanbases and if you don't force your stuff in their face, they won't look your way. You have to be as visible as you can be and if you try and spread out too much, you won't be visible anywhere

This is also a good point. I recall arguing back in the day that retro game soundtracks were more commonly remixed than even PS2 onward because stuff like the NES were just basic synth patches which could be idiomatically transposed to many acoustic ensembles or dance music.
 

Keep in mind that original compositions aren't just for aspiring professionals.

All interesting points. Regarding this one specifically, an entire thread could discuss this. Recent studies show that mental health issues plague musicians disproportionately. It's generally because of financial instability, and the job being tied to every aspect of your life. It's also because being unable to use your skillset for a living is massively depressing (among the main reasons why the robot revolution is bad) and devotion to music can be responsible for many low points in your life.

I'm in the "no" camp, myself. Reasons are twofold:
1. I'd simply rather spend the time and energy on something of my own. Now, if I hear an existing song, and I like it...I just leave it at that.
2. A remix can never really be your own. It's like fanart or cosplay: You're ultimately (where OCR is concerned) just giving free promotion to what is, at the end of the day, a consumer product. 
Regarding that, I remember about five years ago, one of the gecko or frog users said that he found the problem with remixes was that no one actually gave a damn about your original stuff by comparison, and it's haunted me ever since. I suspect most people listening (outside of OCR) are listening more because they like and have nostalgia for that game rather than the composer. It would be an interesting survey to see how many actually even know the composer's name. I also doubt that most, unless they're regular listeners to OCR specifically, have any particular loyalty to any remixer.
Not that I regret anything, of course, but that's my reasoning.
Yes, I am an old man, and yes — I yell at clouds. 
 
 

Ha! That's what I was thinking when I started seeing some "vintage" names pop up!

I'm in the "no" camp, myself. Reasons are twofold:
1. I'd simply rather spend the time and energy on something of my own. Now, if I hear an existing song, and I like it...I just leave it at that.
2. A remix can never really be your own. It's like fanart or cosplay: You're ultimately (where OCR is concerned) just giving free promotion to what is, at the end of the day, a consumer product. 
Regarding that, I remember about five years ago, one of the gecko or frog users said that he found the problem with remixes was that no one actually gave a damn about your original stuff by comparison, and it's haunted me ever since. I suspect most people listening (outside of OCR) are listening more because they like and have nostalgia for that game rather than the composer. It would be an interesting survey to see how many actually even know the composer's name. I also doubt that most, unless they're regular listeners to OCR specifically, have any particular loyalty to any remixer.
Not that I regret anything, of course, but that's my reasoning.
Yes, I am an old man, and yes — I yell at clouds. 
 
 

I don't remix anymore because I draw cats. I'm sure I have a room in hell waiting for me.
In all seriousness, I agree more or less with the OP regarding remixes. I haven't made one since 2004 (wow has it been that long?). However, I did end up getting my degree in music and met a lot of great people in the community because of it. I actually found a place to live in Boston because of Vig (Jesse) when I went to school which certainly changed my life forever.
YAY OCR!

This topic further adds evidence to my theory that OCR folks from across the epochs and such really do keep visiting OCR, they just keep lurking for whatever reason until a topic like this shows up.

I'm in the "no" camp, myself. Reasons are twofold:
1. I'd simply rather spend the time and energy on something of my own. Now, if I hear an existing song, and I like it...I just leave it at that.
2. A remix can never really be your own. It's like fanart or cosplay: You're ultimately (where OCR is concerned) just giving free promotion to what is, at the end of the day, a consumer product. 
Regarding that, I remember about five years ago, one of the gecko or frog users said that he found the problem with remixes was that no one actually gave a damn about your original stuff by comparison, and it's haunted me ever since. I suspect most people listening (outside of OCR) are listening more because they like and have nostalgia for that game rather than the composer. It would be an interesting survey to see how many actually even know the composer's name. I also doubt that most, unless they're regular listeners to OCR specifically, have any particular loyalty to any remixer.
Not that I regret anything, of course, but that's my reasoning.
Yes, I am an old man, and yes — I yell at clouds. 
 
 

I dunno, Going to play devil's advocate since I do have some different opinions on this - While I personally would say my mixes are my own to an extent (after all, I throw plenty of original content into my remixes), I wouldn't go as far as saying what we're doing are collaborations by any definition. When I'm working with another remixer on a track, or working with a friend, that to me is a collaboration. it has to be agreed on and both parties need to have some sort of impact on the final product. This idea that you think of "all artistic creation as a collaboration" - its a nice idea but to me, thats not the way it works. If they can sue you for copyright infringement its not a collaboration imo.
I also disagree with your second point for one reason: I agree with that you can bring your own ideas and people can be derivative with their original works etc etc but I think there's more to it - and that is what gets written down on paper. Something i've noticed doing both remixing and composing is that when you do remixes, your name gets lost in the shuffle because at the end of the day, its not yours on paper is it? Most people who aren't familiar with the artist already don't listen to a remix on OCR and go "man this DarkeSword remix is awesome" they'll go "Man that Wind Waker Remix is greeeeeeeeat lets find some more", because to them, the ownership is still on the original composer/game franchise.
Its the same with some labels - I mean... other than DJ Cutman, who can you name from GameChops? What I DO know is the label has an abundance of crazy popular Undertale remixes. Who made them? Dunno, I know Ben Briggs did that super popular Tem Shop thing, that said, I know Ben personally. Beyond that...
Now if I look at original works, its different, I KNOW the artists behind many original stuff on their labels because the name isn't obscured by other info, and the mentality is different - Most official remixes are credited first to the original composers and it might say in the track title who remixed it. I've seen stuff on spotify created to the original artist and then realised later its actually a remix made by someone else. Says so in the remix title but it went over my head.  To most people, I feel like ownership goes to the person who composed the original work, not the person who remixed it, so I can appreciate it when people say remixes aren't their "own". I certainly don't feel like my remixes are my own work anymore, not in comparison to the stuff I made from scratch, and I feel like when people are listening to my own music, it is more personal as a result of that, both for me, and my fans.
 

I'm more or less in the same camp as Jorito. I do remixes mainly because they provide learning opportunities and make for very concrete projects. I love to give my favorite tracks from the olden days a sound update so I can enjoy listening to them even more. I always want to add a bit of a personal touch to remixes so they kind of feel like my own. For the moment I am also my own primary audience, but seeing how many other people love video-game music I figured I could just as well share my productions with them. I'm not in the pursuit of a career in music.
I think the opening post did provide some good food for thought. Do I just want fanboys to drool over my remixes and disregard me and my original music? Am I just there to feed their nostalgia? Are the people who grew up with the same games and soundtracks that I grew up with still out there, looking for related remixes? Or are we dealing with a new, much younger audience who's first shot at a Final Fantasy game was FF13? How remixable are modern soundtracks anyway, what with them being already possibly fully orchestrated? In other words: is remixing worth your time and effort in the grand scheme of things?
I suppose remixing could be someone's main selling point, but if you also want to be known for your original stuff, that's going to be tricky. When I was still on deviantArt I really wanted people to see and appreciate my original drawings and digital works. Problem was, I had built my audience around nature photography, so no one really cared about the things I really cared about... I think you'll find yourself in a similar situation when you do remixing and original works.
PS: I also wrote a massive rant about the problem with consumerist audience, the distance there always is between composer and audience, the question of why you do the things you do to begin with and about TV talent shows and how we're all looking for that ego boost which basically looks like this: “Nice work!” , “Thanks! I'm glad you liked it. (feels loved)”.
I was going to post the rant, but on second thought, I better not right now.
:D *uses the Force to hit the Submit button*

Soul Calibur 2 is one of my favorite games, such awesome music! I totally hear it in the movement of this piece!

You've been chosen by the gods!
Inspired a fair bit by the music of the Soul Calibur games. Hope you all like it.
 

Awwww yeah