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^It's cool that you can add wavedashing and L-Canceling back into Brawl -- but isn't that kind of missing the point? Aside from the novelty, I feel that if you need those things to be good, you should be playing Melee. This isn't a knock specifically against you, GT -- I just don't see any usefulness to the concept.

For instance, tournaments (hopefully) will still be vanilla Brawl, so the wavedashing is probably not going to help in the long run too much.

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^It's cool that you can add wavedashing and L-Canceling back into Brawl -- but isn't that kind of missing the point? Aside from the novelty, I feel that if you need those things to be good, you should be playing Melee. This isn't a knock specifically against you, GT -- I just don't see any usefulness to the concept.

For instance, tournaments (hopefully) will still be vanilla Brawl, so the wavedashing is probably not going to help in the long run too much.

That's a good point. I want to see what this hack looks like just out of curiosity, though.

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While I applaud the ingenuity of the hackers to allow those moves in Brawl, I think it's rather unnecessary as well. Brawl is a different game. It's pretty clear that Sakurai wanted it to be removed from Melee as far as it can and it's balanced to keep that in mind.

And really, if these things are really so desired, go back to Melee where they were part of the meta-game.

On a side note, I don't want to be an asshole, but I'm going to echo the question of why Melee has become the topic du-jour of the Brawl thread? Is it possible to change the thread name to "Super Smash Bros" (Thus expanding the scope) or make another Melee thread, considering the game is obviously still relevant amongst a number of members in the community?

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That was good stuff, HideousBeing. What I would suggest is to be more mobile with your Wario, because I saw alot of standing around. One of the things that makes him such a good character is his aerial mobility. You used your second jump pretty early in the first match alot, and you came in over Snake's head, which is a bad place to be. Keep that second jump and use short-hopped fairs so that you can get in and out quickly. Also I didn't see you use Wario's uair much in the first match, but you did more in the second one. And spam Wario's fsmash; it's so broken and surprisingly difficult to punish (also the super-armor protects you too, and gives you an advantage). Lastly, use Wario's Bite more. I see that you used it here and there (and to great effect against Snake's recovery the second match), but since it has grab properties and insane priority, it's something that you should throw out there every chance you get.

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I've heard a lot of people talk about how bad these brawl players are for relying so much on wavedashing that they hacked it back in the game but it really is less about neededing l-canceling and wavedashing to be good and more about making the game actually fun.

Went to a tournament on saturday with 64 or so people and I got rocked :(. Honestly I don't know what happened.

1: Inui ($469.00) - MetaKnight

2: Forward ($134.00) - Snake/Pit

3: AlphaZealot ($67.00) - Diddy Kong

4: Dook - Snake/Lucario

5: Joey Fury - Snake

5: Quivo - Toon Link

7: Coma - Diddy Kong

7: Black Guile - Marth

9: Delta Punk

9: Sonic the Hedgedawg

9: McWooty - Fox

9: Tyr

...

49.me :C :C :C

The people in bold are who I went to the tournament with and the last two local tournaments we went to I put Black Guile out and we both practiced the same amount for this tournament (not at all), so the only thing I can think of is to go back to playing Falco cause Game and Watch worked out roughly zero percent good for me.

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Brawl is a different game. It's pretty clear that Sakurai wanted it to be removed from Melee as far as it can and it's balanced to keep that in mind.

Brawl is clearly not balanced at all.

Though I do not see the Melee mechanics slapped onto Brawl being universally accepted everywhere, I think having this option is great. I can play in both ways. I just think it's fun to see Melee mechanics on the new characters. What I DO like is that now all the really really clunky characters have a chance to keep up with lagless characters like Metaknight. Think of it this way. Even with these mechanics, all the auto cancel characters still get to auto cancel all their aerial moves but everyone else still needs to learn to cancel their moves? It's still not even fair but at least it's a step in the right direction for competitive play, because Brawl is seriously not anywhere closed to being balanced. This doesn't make it any less fun for people obviously, but you can't say it's anywhere close to perfect.

As for questioning the usefulness of all this wavedash and L-cancel stuff? Different/less predictable approaches, less camping, more creative combo potential. Here are some vids.

S-Cancel only

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gRHA4aqVJ2Y

Wavedash and S-Cancel

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E80xM08TQM8

S-Cancel is the one being tested out right now. What it does is allows players to shield during any of the lag recovery frames after landing during aerial attacks. It removes all the lag once you shield so you can tap shield to cancel all the lag. There IS a real L-cancel hack being worked on where it mimics Melee exactly which cuts the lag in half. It's not perfect yet as the window of timing to L-cancel is nowhere near the ground thus feeling unnatural. I've tested both and it adds a bit of spice to the game, making it more chaotic. If the real L-cancel hack gets fixed to 100% then it'll be the best choice among the hacks. This S-cancel business with ZERO lag is a bit much.

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Alright, I was hoping the results would've been posted by now, but since they aren't, I'll just give you a rundown of what I remember on what happened to me at the little tourney on Friday:

Matches were 3-stock, best of three. I played as Lucario in all my matches (aside from the very last one).

First Round

Fight 1: Final Destination

I got randomly put against a decent player for my first round; he played Wolf. The first match I clearly lost; I barely took his second stock. When he killed me the third time, it was because I tripped in front of him right when he was charging up a smash attack. Oh well, I was going to lose anyway, so it didn't bother me as much.

Fight 2: Battlefield

This time I took him to town. I had learned some of his tendencies by the time the first fight ended, and so I did quite well this time. He got my second stock about 10 seconds before I got his third.

Fight 3: Final Destination

I am still upset about how this match turned out. This fight was pretty evenly matched between us through most of it. We both got each other's first and second lives fairly close together, so we were about even when we were down to our last lives. At this point, either I turned it up a notch or he started getting sloppy, but I got him to about 150% before I got to 100% (I just couldn't seem to land the killing move). I landed a combo of sorts and was going for that killing strike, and I would've gotten it... but then I tripped. Again. Right into a smash attack that killed me.

Thus, I lost the fight and the match. On to the Loser's Bracket for me!

First Round

This match isn't worth describing; I pretty much destroyed my opponent here. He played Toon Link. I had two stocks left in both fights (lost one each fight because of me being stupid and letting myself get hit by that aerial down-stab of his).

Second Round

This match was close. My opponent played Samus the first fight and Marth the second. I won both fights (played on Smashville and Battlefield), but not by much. In both instances, I was down to my last stock when he had two left and was still at a low percentage. I'm not quite sure how I managed to pull it off (twice, even), but I managed myself in the clutch fairly well, I guess, and played smarter than him at that point forward. I was at a very high percentage each time, but I won both fights. Surprise surprise.

Third Round

Complete and utter destruction. My opponent was one of the best players attending (and could've won the tourney if he hadn't gone and dashed off the stage twice in a single match!). He played Wolf. Mind you, I knew going into this tourney that I had significant trouble fighting Wolf. The fact that this guy was so good meant I probably wasn't going to win (barring him throwing himself off the edge twice again). Still, I played the first fight as Lucario and only barely managed to kill him twice (early on; from that point forward he knew my moves and destroyed me). I knew I probably wasn't going to be able to kill him a single time the second fight if I played as Lucario, so I switched to Zero Suit Samus. I had a little more success training against Wolf as ZSS, so I figured, why not? In the end I got destroyed, but I got 50% on his second stock.

All-in-all, I think it was a decent showing for me, considering I only picked up the game seriously about two weeks ago.

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I've heard a lot of people talk about how bad these brawl players are for relying so much on wavedashing that they hacked it back in the game but it really is less about neededing l-canceling and wavedashing to be good and more about making the game actually fun.

Went to a tournament on saturday with 64 or so people and I got rocked :(. Honestly I don't know what happened.

1: Inui ($469.00) - MetaKnight<<GODAMIT

2: Forward ($134.00) - Snake/Pit<<GODAMIT

3: AlphaZealot ($67.00) - Diddy Kong<<GODAMIT

4: Dook - Snake/Lucario<<GODAMIT

5: Joey Fury - Snake<<GODAMIT

5: Quivo - Toon Link

7: Coma - Diddy Kong

7: Black Guile - Marth<<GODAMIT

9: Delta Punk

9: Sonic the Hedgedawg

9: McWooty - Fox

9: Tyr

...

49.me :C :C :C

The people in bold are who I went to the tournament with and the last two local tournaments we went to I put Black Guile out and we both practiced the same amount for this tournament (not at all), so the only thing I can think of is to go back to playing Falco cause Game and Watch worked out roughly zero percent good for me.

I hate this. when I face metaknights and snakes in tourneys, it makes me want to sit the user down and lecture the users on not being a cheap douschebag. roughly 3/4s of mk users I know havent even played any kirby titles with mk in it.

I think that in order to main a character in brawl you need to have beaten at least one of their games. This allows you to appreciate them for more than just the fact that they are really good characters. Lucas is my main and I havent beaten mother 3 yet but I am working on it.

the reason I say this is that mk users should have to beat mk in the kirby samurai minigame. that would cut mk users by 9/10s.

Marth is a fag, snake isnt as bad because its tricky to use him, diddy needs a new down b. playing him in fd is absolute crap

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Hey jam i heard you met a couple of my friends brendan and lenny this past weekend, lenny played luigi and brendan was a cfalc, bigger guy, booming voice. I used to play with those two all the time, if you remember who they are how'd they do

i miss the old days of tourneys

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You know, I have always had a bias against King DeDeDe since I've played Kirby Superstar. You have now kindled the fumes of prejudice that I have against DeDeDe. I have seen a tier list saying that Deed was a top-tier character, if I am not mistaken, but... well, maybe he's only good against certain people because I've seen him get whooped so many times it isn't even funny. In fact, some kid tried to use him against my Sonic... I never got hit + I wasn't that good.

Who is Deed good against? Slow characters? Little weak ones that aren't fast? I'll look online to see how and when he wins.

Tournament.

Simply said, practice makes perfect. I forgot Wolf's rank on the tier list, but I liked using him a lot (seems to be good + it actually takes skill to use him). Basically a stronger-yet-slower fox; brings that pain, and his style makes up for his lack of speed.

My theory called "Cancellation": There is this rule about certain characters not being able to beat others (unless somebody sucks). I don't know if I saw an impossible situation in your circumstance (i.e. Fox vs Mewtwo (Melee), which I've heard it's possible to beat Fox with Mewtwo, but with a very hard-to-do method), but for the most part, there are those few who just cannot beat certain characters (even if "just cannot" = 90-99.9% chance).

I found it funny that every time someone uses C . Falcon against Mewtwo (and only if you're good with Mewtwo because being horrible w/ Mewtwo = give up), the result is ROFL. You would think that C. Falcon would dominate b/c of his speed and strength, but he becomes predictable. His cancel isn't that fast (correct me if I am wrong), he has no projectile moves, jumps suck, tends to be open a lot (defense isn't as good as Fox, Sheik, Marth or Falco, the top-tier characters for Melee), and as a result, he ends up being whooped the same way a normal pokemon (we're going back, y'all!) would be challenged and / or canceled out by a psychic.

(newbie Joke removed)

Note to ALL noobs: B moves are specials, whether or not they are killing moves. Even if they are killing moves, they do not get the job done 100% of the time.

Question: I know that the Master Hand is in Brawl, but what about the Crazy Hand? Are there any more new top villians? On a side note, I remember when I first played both hands and couldn't win. Not a problem now, depending on what character I use.

Jam: Yeah, Roy is slower, and I knew off-the-back that his recovery sucked in comparison to Marth. He runs fast, but his moves are more slowly anticipated.

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You know, I have always had a bias against King DeDeDe since I've played Kirby Superstar. You have now kindled the fumes of prejudice that I have against DeDeDe. I have seen a tier list saying that Deed was a top-tier character, if I am not mistaken, but... well, maybe he's only good against certain people because I've seen him get whooped so many times it isn't even funny. In fact, some kid tried to use him against my Sonic... I never got hit + I wasn't that good.

Who is Deed good against? Slow characters? Little weak ones that aren't fast? I'll look online to see how and when he wins.

Simply said, practice makes perfect. I forgot Wolf's rank on the tier list, but I liked using him a lot (seems to be good + it actually takes skill to use him). Basically a stronger-yet-slower fox; brings that pain, and his style makes up for his lack of speed.

My theory called "Cancellation": There is this rule about certain characters not being able to beat others (unless somebody sucks). I don't know if I saw an impossible situation in your circumstance (i.e. Fox vs Mewtwo (Melee), which I've heard it's possible to beat Fox with Mewtwo, but with a very hard-to-do method), but for the most part, there are those few who just cannot beat certain characters (even if "just cannot" = 90-99.9% chance).

I found it funny that every time someone uses C . Falcon against Mewtwo (and only if you're good with Mewtwo because being horrible w/ Mewtwo = give up), the result is ROFL. You would think that C. Falcon would dominate b/c of his speed and strength, but he becomes predictable. His cancel isn't that fast (correct me if I am wrong), he has no projectile moves, jumps suck, tends to be open a lot (defense isn't as good as Fox, Sheik, Marth or Falco, the top-tier characters for Melee), and as a result, he ends up being whooped the same way a normal pokemon (we're going back, y'all!) would be challenged and / or canceled out by a psychic.

Quit, spamming, n00b(!): C. Falcon's moves have to be mastered. I know a friend who loves him ("Show your moves" taunting everytime he knocks you away), but he (skill-lessly and unnecessarily) spams his B-moves. Who the hell does that? I know that he can combo well with his B-moves, but his A-moves, like most other characters (or any character, really), gets the job done.

Note to ALL noobs: B moves are specials, whether or not they are killing moves. Even if they are killing moves, they do not get the job done 100% of the time.

Question: I know that the Master Hand is in Brawl, but what about the Crazy Hand? Are there any more new top villians? On a side note, I remember when I first played both hands and couldn't win. Not a problem now, depending on what character I use.

Jam: Yeah, Roy is slower, and I knew off-the-back that his recovery sucked in comparison to Marth. He runs fast, but his moves are more slowly anticipated.

Ohhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhhh lord. Where do you begin with this post?

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You know, I have always had a bias against King DeDeDe since I've played Kirby Superstar. You have now kindled the fumes of prejudice that I have against DeDeDe. I have seen a tier list saying that Deed was a top-tier character, if I am not mistaken, but... well, maybe he's only good against certain people because I've seen him get whooped so many times it isn't even funny. In fact, some kid tried to use him against my Sonic... I never got hit + I wasn't that good.

Who is Deed good against? Slow characters? Little weak ones that aren't fast? I'll look online to see how and when he wins.

Dedede is good against a ton of people. Your experience =/= enough to say he is bad. when he is actually quite good

EDIT: HideousBeing this is where to begin. you take the rest.

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I have a friend who was absolutely devastated that they took out Mewtwo in Brawl. He absolutely swears that his neutral air and teleport mindgames make him invincible. :P

Edit: Salluz, I'm going to talk to you like a friend and give you some honest advice: for your own sake, don't post as if you are a veteran or expert at something. Questions like "what's so great about Dedede" (answered by Derrit) and "Is Crazy Hand in Brawl" (the answer is yes; you'll find out later that he is being controlled by an even more powerful being) are fine, and people will gladly give you what you need. But if you try to give tips to the "n00bs," you just sound arrogant and end up making a fool of yourself, because for the most part your advice is redundant at best and plain wrong at worst. As the cliche goes, if people want your advice, they will ask for it.

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sucks, tried to play the game yesterday and anytime i tried to use the brawl mode my wii couldn't read the disk :|. i've read it's very sensitive to dust and stuff so when i cleaned it it worked longer but the the same thing. don't really know how to clean it more than i have...

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sucks, tried to play the game yesterday and anytime i tried to use the brawl mode my wii couldn't read the disk :|. i've read it's very sensitive to dust and stuff so when i cleaned it it worked longer but the the same thing. don't really know how to clean it more than i have...

Do you have a smoker in your house? I've heard that the particulate matter from smoke can really affect a Wii's ability to read discs.

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