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samurai_of_plague

Donkey Kong Country

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Either my points didn't come across clear enough or you grossly misunderstood what I was saying.

actually I'm pretty sure his point was that you're basically saying if you take everything that makes a game good away from a game than it is not good anymore

this is clearly a ridiculous sentiment

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Gecko, DKC was anything but average for its time. And yes, I'm speaking objectively. If you can't see that, you're rather short-sighted.

DKC was released in late 1994. By that time, the entire genre was about as tired and worn out as the FPS genre is today. It was gonna take something a bit out of the ordinary to make me raise an eyebrow. Platformers were dime-a-dozen where they put shit all over the levels to collect, like coins or crystals or candy, that often did little more than add to an archaic high score system you didn't care about in the first place. That's what I mean with collect-a-thon, and DKC wasn't much different in that regard. There wasn't much incentive at all to collect all those bananas and letters, and in turn I skipped the bonus rooms which didn't feel very rewarding at all. Riding the animals felt borderline redundant and was a far cry from something like Yoshi in Super Mario World. A lot of the boss fights felt about as cookie cutter as you could get. Pretty much the only thing the game's design had going for it was the co-op aspect, which was barely explored. That's what I think makes the game average. There were so many platformers released just before and right after it that felt more creative and well thought-out in almost every aspect, even for the NES.

actually I'm pretty sure his point was that you're basically saying if you take everything that makes a game good away from a game than it is not good anymore

What I basically brought up there was the game's presentation. Are you saying that's all that matters for the quality, and things like mechanics are redundant?

Let's say it was called something like Diddy's Adventure with no relation to Donkey Kong, and used more standard hand-drawn sprites. I doubt it would have gotten the same ludicrous reception.

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Are you saying that's all that matters for the quality, and things like mechanics are redundant?

um if the mechanic's are still fun and are only accepted as broken by purists who spend way too much time researching the physics of a SNES platformer than I'm going to have to say they are A-OK

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Respectfully disagree.

Unlike a lot of platformers at the time, this game went out of its way to include secrets that were genuinely tracked by the game engine. Just because you didn't get into hunting for the secret rooms because you didn't feel they were giving you rewards does not mean that nobody found them rewarding.

I find the entire aspect to be quite challenging and fun. What you call an 'artibtrary high score that nobody cares about' was in fact a central component of this game. In DKC2 it was instrumental in opening up new levels, and in all the games was both a contested and challenging way of truly becoming engrossed in the game.

I think that this mechanic would survive a removal of the liscence and change of graphical style. Plus the controls feel spot on to me, even to this day, and I find that I can pick it up and play it even after years of abscence.

Though I definitely don't agree with people calling you crazy or short sighted or whatever for not liking it. Somet games simply don't work for some people.

Take care.

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The thing about DKC was that although it didn't offer much more then unseen graphics, it was just a simple platformer. However, it did everything RIGHT! The controls were good, the music was fantastic, the graphics unseen before, and it was all mixed in perfectly.

Basically, it's attention to detail, music wise, graphical wise, or whatever, was as good as the best from Nintendo at the time. And that was something that not a lot of companies pulled off.

Oh, and DKC2 is by far my favorite. I kinda like the whole pirate theme, whereas part 1 just felt bland.

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There wasn't much incentive at all to collect all those bananas and letters, and in turn I skipped the bonus rooms which didn't feel very rewarding at all. Riding the animals felt borderline redundant and was a far cry from something like Yoshi in Super Mario World. A lot of the boss fights felt about as cookie cutter as you could get. Pretty much the only thing the game's design had going for it was the co-op aspect, which was barely explored. That's what I think makes the game average. There were so many platformers released just before and right after it that felt more creative and well thought-out in almost every aspect, even for the NES.

How laughable. You consider your opinion of the game's qualities to be objective! I am getting so fricken fed up with posters who think their opinion should be upheld as fact! If you're going to talk about objectivity (Facts, supported with undeniable evidence), you'd better fricking know what that term means!

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Don't you even compare this game to Disney games.

The music alone in DKC2 is enough to make it superior to most of the games that came out at the time. The 3D-looking graphics, beautiful backgrounds, and flowing action aren't things you can "throw out" in an effort to express your point either. They aren't what make the game so great, but they are an important piece. The gameplay itself is what is so great, just think of the jumping roller coaster levels, the sliding ice level, the spider web platforming, avoiding of enemies while flying as the parrot, and thrilling rising levels. This game is a classic, and though I understand if it's not your type of game (I personally don't care for FPSs), but it is definitely not overrated.

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Gecko, DKC was anything but average for its time. And yes, I'm speaking objectively. If you can't see that, you're rather short-sighted.

That is not objective. That is your opinion, which just happens to be shared by a whole lot of people.

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One even gave it above 100%

What did they rate it? Because if it was 101% that would be cool, since that's the level of completion to which you could beat the game. It would be pretty clever.

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I still think that the hardest level by far is the final Lost World level in DKC3. It took me... about 50 lives to beat. I had to hold my controller upside-down. The whole family got into it, and we even handed off the controller to one another from time to time.

How's that for epic memories?

Fitting way to end the series, I say.

As much as I love about the DKC games, I do have to stop and remind myself that DK learned all his tricks from Mario first. It wasn't until DKC2 that the series really started to feel vastly different from Mario, design-wise.

I notice a lot of people give DKC3 some flak for some reason... sure, it kinda sucked that both DK and Diddy were nowhere to be found, and the environments weren't exactly inspired, but it had it's moments of genius.

The low gravity pipeline

The burning rope

The jungle conveyor ropes

The dark underwater level

The level where you had to feed Nibbla or die

The level where the bees chased you above water

But, of course (and once again!), the best part was probably the music. Sure, DKC2 might have the overall best soundtrack by popular opinion, but DKC3 had some standout awesome tracks too... like the factory theme, anyone? HOW HAS THIS NOT BEEN REMIXED ALEADY?

Also, Mama Bird.

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That is not objective. That is your opinion, which just happens to be shared by a whole lot of people.

Care to point out any other platformer that had better graphics before DKC's release? And I don't mean from a subjective, artistic standpoint. I mean another platformer with pre-rendered, "3-D" graphics (something that hadn't been done before in a platformer).

Care to point out another platformer that had a series of floating, round containers that shot out it's protagonist like a canon, and it was player-controlled?

Care to point out a game that came out in 1994 that had a more influential soundtrack?

Care to point out a game released in 1994 that had more charm (i.e. a fake credits, or should I say kredits, scene)?

Now hush.

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I swear. This game gets so much debate every time it shows up on these boards....

Its either OMG best game ever,

or OMG most over-rated game ever...

In the end this game just boils down to a endless debate, where opinion comes

Before thought.. not like

Lock jaws Locker... Now that level Is cool... No doubt about that...

... actually I dont remember it at all, i just needed something to work there.

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Donkey Kong Country is kickass. There. That's all. I enjoy playing the game. Not only does it have a lot of nostalgic value for me, but it's still really fun to play and I still love the atmosphere of the game. Barrelling through enemies, blasting through barrels, great music and sound, still-impressive graphics. Overrated? Who cares? Best game ever? Hell no. I still love it. DKC3? Not as polished as the others, but still cool as hell.

I love Donkey Kong Country. There. It doesn't matter what everyone else thinks. Maybe a little bit, but whatever.

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Care to point out another platformer that had a series of floating, round containers that shot out it's protagonist like a canon, and it was player-controlled?

The only thing the player controlled was at what time they got shot out.

How is this any different from any of the countless platformers where the player had to properly time their jumps between platforms?

Care to point out a game that came out in 1994 that had a more influential soundtrack?

vg music was garbage until DKC came around

Care to point out a game released in 1994 that had more charm (i.e. a fake credits, or should I say kredits, scene)?
That is not objective. That is your opinion

Now hush.

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Not attacking here, just trying to have a conversation...

Care to point out any other platformer that had better graphics before DKC's release? And I don't mean from a subjective, artistic standpoint. I mean another platformer with pre-rendered, "3-D" graphics (something that hadn't been done before in a platformer).

I think that depends on actually liking the CGI look. I knew people who thought games like Killer Instinct, Donkey Kong Country and others look like hell because of how the CGI technique was being used then. They hated the "shiny" look, and felt that while the movements were smooth, they also looked stiff and unnatural.

Care to point out another platformer that had a series of floating, round containers that shot out it's protagonist like a canon, and it was player-controlled?

Is that really a bragging point? There were games like Human Cannonball for the Atari 2600 that featured the idea of shooting the player from a canon you could control. And other games like Sonic 2 and Sonic Spinball in 1992 and 1993 respectively, which featured a similar idea of shooting the player around, even if you couldn't shoot at angles.

Care to point out a game that came out in 1994 that had a more influential soundtrack?

I'm sorry JCvgluvr, but you're crossing into very subjective waters here. There were a number of games released in 1994 that feature soundtracks just as memorable (if not more so to some). Earthworm Jim, Final Fantasy VI, Super Metroid... I'm sure there are people who would argue those games had more influential soundtracks. There might even be someone who would argue in favor of Alfred Chicken :lol:

Care to point out a game released in 1994 that had more charm (i.e. a fake credits, or should I say kredits, scene)?

Charm is also a subjective thing. It could easily turn into an argument centered solely around personal preference and stylistic taste. I can virtually promise you, that there are people who would place games like Earthworm Jim above DKC... not to mention other titles that came out shortly before or after DKC (like Clayfighter 2 and Ristar).

I know you enjoy the series, JCvgluvr, and I'm not knocking you for liking it. But some of what you're arguing really is a matter of personal taste. When you state such things like they're cold hard facts in a textbook instead of opinions, you're going to get lambasted (as you've seen). By all means, stand by your opinions, and defend them with your hows and whys. But try not to let the opinions that differ from your own get you to the point of challenging people like they somehow insulted you in a way. I mean hell, I love Thunder Force IV, and I'll stand by every glowing comment I've ever made about its awesomeness. But if I got argumentative with the people who didn't like it for this or that reason... well, I'd be a busy and angry man with an ulcer by now :lol:

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I can go on all day about what DKC meant (and still means) to me, so I hope that I won't get too carried away. But generally, I know that the three games helped make me who I am today... but before people start assuming the worst, I mean that the series played a huge part in helping me decide that I wanted to pursue game studies, and has aided in my decision to pursue work in the industry when I get all my schooling done in a few years (no matter how unconventional the means may be).

Unlike most, I don't hate DKC3, I still really like it, and at one point it was actually my favourite. I think it's just hated on because people didn't like the theme that was somewhat pervasive throughout (it was obviously a lot brighter and bouncier than 2). But since all of this has been said already, I'll get to the point. Probably the main thing I look for in most of my games is the environments and the atmosphere that is created. I think that the DKC series has the best variety and quality of engaging environments of any game, and while yes, the graphics (both technical and artistic) played a huge part in this, so did the music (as all of us here know). I've been listening to the soundtracks almost every day for the last seven or eight years, and it just goes to show the longetivity of the series' music (why haven't they added DKC music to Video Games Live already?). DKC2 has my favourite soundtrack ever, and only Super Mario Galaxy has come close since (obviously, in my opinion).

More recently, SSBB ruined the representation of the DKC series within the framework of the DK universe... it's almost non-existant, and whoever green-lighted that sucks big time. But since 2D platformers are having a bit of a resurgence, and experiencing greater success again (Sonic Rush, NSMB), hopefully we will get DKC 4, which is 11 years overdue at this point (DKC was a yearly thing for a while... so when 1997 ended without one I was pretty upset to say the least).

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But some of what you're arguing really is a matter of personal taste.

this is pretty much what everyone is doing

no matter how incontrovertible anyone for either side thinks their arguments are, the fact will always remain that we're all just shouting our opinions of a video game at each other

some people like it, some didn't; instead of bitching about what people thought about a video game let's all be big kids and argue about something more important like pollution or something

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As a somewhat off topic side note, I'm a bit surprised by the Disney platformer hate. I really loved Aladdin (the SNES version, never played the Genesis one), and Lion King wasn't that bad either. I had a fun time playing Mickey's Magical quest too.

No joke.

But back on topic, my favorite aspect of the DKC series was the Y-button roll attack into dash that could also get you midair jumps. Also the subtle differences between Diddy and Donkey, added variety to the way you played the game, though I must admit, in the first game the differences between characters were little compared to the other DKC games (primarily with Dixie's ability to glide).

Another aspect that I enjoyed in DKC was the speed. While not as fast as the Sonic games, you could still get things moving pretty fast. I always liked being able to dash through an entire level, barreling through enemies, with only a pause to find a secret or pick up a barrel. Of course I also enjoyed slower platformers as well, like Super Castlevania IV.

Though I must admit, the collision detection was not the best out there, and there have been a few times when I have jumped on an enemy only to find that I was the loser of the encounter.

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Care to point out any other platformer that had better graphics before DKC's release? And I don't mean from a subjective, artistic standpoint. I mean another platformer with pre-rendered, "3-D" graphics (something that hadn't been done before in a platformer).

Care to point out another platformer that had a series of floating, round containers that shot out it's protagonist like a canon, and it was player-controlled?

Care to point out a game that came out in 1994 that had a more influential soundtrack?

Care to point out a game released in 1994 that had more charm (i.e. a fake credits, or should I say kredits, scene)?

Now hush.

How laughable. You consider your opinion of the game's qualities to be objective! I am getting so fricken fed up with posters who think their opinion should be upheld as fact!

It's funny cause it's true. :<

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How laughable. You consider your opinion of the game's qualities to be objective! I am getting so fricken fed up with posters who think their opinion should be upheld as fact! If you're going to talk about objectivity (Facts, supported with undeniable evidence), you'd better fricking know what that term means!

I completely agree

I hate how people always think they have the dominant opinion and they're the only one thats right

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I think that depends on actually liking the CGI look. I knew people who thought games like Killer Instinct, Donkey Kong Country and others look like hell because of how the CGI technique was being used then. They hated the "shiny" look, and felt that while the movements were smooth, they also looked stiff and unnatural.

Here, I can't say that I agree with you. My point was that they were the best SNES graphics, at the time. And they were. I don't care if some people didn't like them because its too shiny. That wasn't my point. So, DKC still gets a point for being above average.

Is that really a bragging point? There were games like Human Cannonball for the Atari 2600 that featured the idea of shooting the player from a canon you could control. And other games like Sonic 2 and Sonic Spinball in 1992 and 1993 respectively, which featured a similar idea of shooting the player around, even if you couldn't shoot at angles.

No, no, no. I thought about Sonic 2 before I typed this. In Oil Ocean, yes, you did fly around at high speeds in the air, but it wasn't player-controlled. And your Atari example clearly doesn't relate. I'm convinced that DKC's adrenaline-fueled Barrel Cannon sequences were previously nonexistent in the platformer. So, DKC still gets a point for being above average.

I'm sorry JCvgluvr, but you're crossing into very subjective waters here. There were a number of games released in 1994 that feature soundtracks just as memorable (if not more so to some). Earthworm Jim, Final Fantasy VI, Super Metroid... I'm sure there are people who would argue those games had more influential soundtracks. There might even be someone who would argue in favor of Alfred Chicken :lol:

Super Metroid came out in 1994?! Son of a..........fine. I concede. I knew I was going out on a limb when I typed that, but I gave it a chance anyway.

Charm is also a subjective thing. It could easily turn into an argument centered solely around personal preference and stylistic taste. I can virtually promise you, that there are people who would place games like Earthworm Jim above DKC... not to mention other titles that came out shortly before or after DKC (like Clayfighter 2 and Ristar).

Dang it Coop! You got me again. Earthworm Jim does possess a boat-load of charm. I concede again.

I know you enjoy the series, JCvgluvr, and I'm not knocking you for liking it.

Conversely, understand that I wouldn't knock someone if they didn't like the DKC series. I just want them to have good reasons, and not just because they're riding the "blind-hatred bandwagon." Just wanted to make sure everybody knows that.

But some of what you're arguing really is a matter of personal taste. When you state such things like they're cold hard facts in a textbook instead of opinions, you're going to get lambasted (as you've seen). By all means, stand by your opinions, and defend them with your hows and whys. But try not to let the opinions that differ from your own get you to the point of challenging people like they somehow insulted you in a way. I mean hell, I love Thunder Force IV, and I'll stand by every glowing comment I've ever made about its awesomeness. But if I got argumentative with the people who didn't like it for this or that reason... well, I'd be a busy and angry man with an ulcer by now :lol:

While I'm quite sure that my points about graphics and previously unseen platformer obstacles are fact, I do admit that my last 2 points strayed too far into subjective territory. I shouldn't have done that, when I just raged about objective-based arguing a post or 2 earlier. :banghead: I'm sorry about that, and I'm gonna try harder next time.

It's funny cause it's true. :<

I had some objective points seph, so :P

I completely agree

I hate how people always think they have the dominant opinion and they're the only one thats right

You get one too: :P

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Care to point out any other platformer that had better graphics before DKC's release? And I don't mean from a subjective, artistic standpoint. I mean another platformer with pre-rendered, "3-D" graphics (something that hadn't been done before in a platformer).

Care to point out another platformer that had a series of floating, round containers that shot out it's protagonist like a canon, and it was player-controlled?

Care to point out a game that came out in 1994 that had a more influential soundtrack?

Care to point out a game released in 1994 that had more charm (i.e. a fake credits, or should I say kredits, scene)?

Now hush.

Dude I liked DKC for almost all the reason you pointed out. But that is all still subjective.

FACT: This game introduced the mechanics of going inside barrel cannons that spun, and you could control when you would be shot out. It was the only one at it's time, I think.

YOUR OPINION: Apparently you must think it makes the game better since it's on your list.

MY OPINION: I hated most parts that forced you to use them.

FACT: DKC had a soundtrack.

YOUR OPINION: It had the most influential soundtrack in 1994.

MY OPINION: Sonic the Hedgehog 3 had the better soundtrack in 1994.

I'm not hating on your opinions or anything, I'm just saying that they are still subjective.

Also Sologamer I missed you.

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