WIP-Releases: Feedback, Discussion + ?s

[Sengin]

Questions for everyone on the wip board:

#1 Do (or did) you know about OCR's resources and guidelines, like the guides, the remixing forum, the #ocrwip irc channel, the checklist, the submission standards, the remixing tab, the tutorials category...?

#2 What's the main thing you want from the wip board, what kind of feedback? Criticism, advice, suggestions, general opinion, help, encouragement...

#3 What motivates you to review (if you do)? Game, remixer, genre, thread popularity...

1). Yes, I knew about all of them.

2). I am mostly looking for what works, what doesn't, and ways to improve (if X doesn't work, what might be a solution to fix X?). And if the reviewer likes it, for him/her to say it. Sometimes you've worked on something for a while, and you start to get this feeling of "need to take a break..." or "I don't know if I can go on...". But then hearing that someone likes it, it can give you the extra jump you need to get back working on it. But if I had to choose one...critique. Nothing irks me more than to post a wip and someone simply saying "i like it" or "this sucks".

3). Time is the most important factor. I don't usually have a lot of time, but if I do, I will try to check out a wip. Other than time, it's mostly the game/song being remixed that influences me. If I see something from Sonic, I will likely check it out, but if I see something like Phoenix Wright, I probably won't check it out. Familiarity with the source also helps.

[POCKETMAN]

Question:

1) Yes.

2) Mainly a WIP is music you are curently working on. AKA not finished. The thing that bothers me about the feedback I get is when someone points out the obvious. That's not feedback and that's no help. Example: your oboe cuts out at 1:13. Usually that means I haven't written it yet. Sometimes i'll even say that in my first post. Yet I hear it anyway. When you write/work on music you listen to it probably hundreds of times. I become very aware of my stupid mistakes, empty parts, wrong notes, out of time, etc.... I do like hearing what the listener thinks about panning, volume, tone, chords, EQ, arrangement, and production. Personally I believe this is what everyone wants to hear when they post a WIP: WHAT CAN I DO TO THIS SONG TO GET IT PASSED BY THE JUDGES. Plain and simple.

[anosou]

In Hoboka's defense, it's understandable to be a little miffed about lower qualtiy remixes from the past being on the site while arguably better stuff gets rejected today. Hell, going back to my first ever submission...I got more yes's on what I consider my worst effort than my most recent submission some 4 years later!

But removing everything from the past isn't really fair either. Allowing that would mean any and everything that gets accepted could be taken down in the future simply because other musicians have improved. If that first submission of mine actually got accepted, I'd be a little embarrassed to hear it on the site today, to be honest. The bar is a good thing.

Just chiming in to mention that erasing history would probably be a bad thing for the site. Looking back it's interesting to see just how far the the site has come since start. Direct violations with standards (we're talking MIDI-rips or mainly sampled sourcetune) gets removed with lockdowns.. Can't see what there is to whine about.

Instead; compare your music with what's getting passed TODAY and see if you think it's still up to par with that. Standards ain't gonna get lower but on the other hand most musicians will always get better.

and

Questions for everyone on the wip board:

#1 Do (or did) you know about OCR's resources and guidelines, like the guides, the remixing forum, the #ocrwip irc channel, the checklist, the submission standards, the remixing tab, the tutorials category...?

#2 What's the main thing you want from the wip board, what kind of feedback? Criticism, advice, suggestions, general opinion, help, encouragement...

#3 What motivates you to review (if you do)? Game, remixer, genre, thread popularity...

#4 Do you have an idea for improving the WIP board (see list), an observation you'd like to share, or something else to say about the WIP board and its use and quality?

#1 I did, obviously. I prefer #ocrwip because of direct feedback of many experienced remixers. I recommend the submission standards and #ocrwip for anyone serious about getting accurate feedback.

#2 Feedback based on the standards instead of personal opinion, then again I think this can be achieved by just reading the standards. Another thing is opinions from experienced remixers, they often know what they are talking about.

#3 I don't really. I'm far to busy nowadays. When I DID review I did it in #ocrwip because you could give the artist direct feedback and discuss issues in a more personal way while listening. Others could chime in directly and it turned into a discussion with advice. If you want written feedback, just copy+paste

#4 I think there are many here who aren't really aware of the current level of the standards. Take some time to listen to the newer remixes (mid-2007 - today is my advice) to get an idea. Read the standards. And most important: PRACTICE!, don't just dismiss all criticism and take the "wow, nice" comments to heart. Be realistic and constantly aim to improve your craft.

there, hope it helps on some level. I appreciate what you're trying to do Rozovian, let's hope the WIP-feedback will improve.

[Rozovian]

Thanks to everyone who have answered my questions so far, I'm seeing a pattern when it comes to the kind of feedback y'all want, but I want more answers to question #3.

If you haven't answered the questions yet - do it now! The questions, and my list of problems with the wip board and possible solutions, are in this post. Help us improve the wip board.

[WillRock]

#3 What motivates you to review (if you do)? Game, remixer, genre, thread popularity... or...?

-end of post-

Hmm... me personally, I know I do not review alot, but that is because I am unsure I am good enough currently to give advice, so confidence affects it personally (I will be happy to review when I/if I get a remix posted) not sure if that is the same for other people though.

But if I do review, and I have once or twice, I'll do it if I am familiar with the game, (I am more likely to look at sonic wip's), this introduces another problem - If that is true for other people, then less popular games will not get as much traffic.

I might if I know the remixer (I would comment If you did a WIP Rozo)

Genre - techno, seeing as that is what I generally make.

I am happy to give feedback on arrangement as well, so that will apply for any style, remixer etc, as long as people post the source (which isn't done often enough)

One extra note - not sure the placement of the forum is great (the last one on the forum page) I think it could benefit from being at a different placement (I can't help but notice that the community forum has the most traffic by a LONG way and that is the first forum on the forums page), but that would mean changing the that page ;S

[Vidilian]

Questions for everyone on the wip board:

#1 Do (or did) you know about OCR's resources and guidelines, like the guides, the remixing forum, the #ocrwip irc channel, the checklist, the submission standards, the remixing tab, the tutorials category...?

#2 What's the main thing you want from the wip board, what kind of feedback? Criticism, advice, suggestions, general opinion, help, encouragement... something else?

#3 What motivates you to review (if you do)? Game, remixer, genre, thread popularity... or...?

#4 Do you have an idea for improving the WIP board (see list), an observation you'd like to share, or something else to say about the WIP board and its use and quality?

1. Yeah I know about all that stuff.

2. I personally need the most help with production issues as I can never spot those issues straight away for some reason.

3. I don't review all that often, simply beacause I can't go into that much detail about problems with other mixes. I struggle to figure out issues with my stuff as it is...

4. I suppose you just need to get more people who know what their talking about interested in helping someone who hasn't already got a proven track record and isn't necessarily their "friend".

[colinjstewart]

1. Yeah, I know about the resources.

2. I'm mostly looking for criticism (both general and specific), as long as it comes paired with advice -- not just something like "this sounds muddy, I don't like that." Like everyone here, I've got a lot to learn, and suggestions are always appreciated. A little encouragement always helps too.

3. I don't review mixes or comment on WIPs often, but when I do, it's usually because I'm familiar with the source material or the remixer's work.

4. Generally, I'm pretty happy with the WIP board. Considering that no one's getting paid to do any work on it, it's pretty damn good already.

[Darklink42]

The problem I've always had with the WIP forum is that a lot of the time, people do not know how to give a good critique. There are a couple of ways that it plays out, and I'd like to see more improvement on that side of things. let me give some examples.

The Fixer. This is the one that bothers me a lot. They usually have great advice to give, and they know what they are talking about. But the problem is that they go beyond helping, and start mixing the song themselves. Their suggestions have suddenly turned them into the director of the piece. It's still the original musician's option to use or ignore those suggestions, but often it seems like the one person's opinion (being the most professionally based reply) is wholeheartedly embraced. My suggestion is to tone it down a bit. Yes, let them know what's wrong and right. But don't fix the whole song for them. Give them the problem, give them a nudge in the right direction. Otherwise they don't grow as artists, and we're not going to see improved WIPs on this board.

The Coddler. Admittedly, there are less of these than there were before. I like that trend. But there are still these people that come on, and the only thing they have to say is that your piece is the best piece ever, and they don't see room for improvement. Keep those posts to yourself. They aren't helpful, and while encouraging, mean very little to the person who posted in an effort to improve the music. Obviously there is room for improvement, otherwise it wouldn't be a WIP.

And the Faker. We had one guy a while back, something fox. Anyways, these are the people that pretend to know what they are talking about,and are usually wrong most of the time. There's not much that can be done about them, and no amount of suggesting is going to stop them from trying to sound like they know something. In this case, we need those professionals and established mixers to step up and point them out. Good stuff can come out of bad advice sure, but more often than not if all someone has gotten in terms of critique is a mixture of type 2 and type 3, then I feel like the board has let them down.

My suggestions for improving critiques are simple. First off, let the person know what you liked and didn't like. Easy enough, people do this on a regular basis, not much needs to change. But, the second thing is, if you're going to give advice, try to make it helpful. Stuff like "the bass needs to be raised" or "I like the transition you made at 1:22". Don't start throwing out stuff like "Well, I'd change the instrumentation here" because, then you're telling the person how to do it as you'd see it. Sometimes it's what they need, most of the time it's not. Third thing is, let them explore their own talent. Leads back to the second point, but also it should be said that often times people post WIPs that seem to be confused about what style they want to be in. As a person giving the critique, it's your job to find the best in the piece and tell that person about it. Fourth and final, be serious about it. Lighthearted critiques are good every once in a while, it breaks up the serious amounts of red ink flying everywhere. But musicians that come here and submit something as WIP, for the most part, aren't looking to hear eight times about their choice of songs to mix being the best. If you're really going to offer a critique, go in with a mind to really look at the good and bad in a mix.

I guess what I'd really like to say is that we don't need a WIPs judge, or superior individuals on the board. We all are capable of giving good advice. Giving a critique is the same as being a judge, only the opinion helps improve what we're listening to, not what gets on the front page.

[blue.nocturne]

#1 Do (or did) you know about OCR's resources and guidelines, like the guides, the remixing forum, the #ocrwip irc channel, the checklist, the submission standards, the remixing tab, the tutorials category...?

#2 What's the main thing you want from the wip board, what kind of feedback? Criticism, advice, suggestions, general opinion, help, encouragement... something else?

#3 What motivates you to review (if you do)? Game, remixer, genre, thread popularity... or...?

#4 Do you have an idea for improving the WIP board (see list), an observation you'd like to share, or something else to say about the WIP board and its use and quality?

1. Yes, sometimes useful, sometimes not, because most of the work I do is orchestral and there are not a lot of resources for my style of remixing.

2. Criticism, nitpicking, and of course encouragement. If I only get criticism, then it gets depressing, having a mix of encouragement plus thoughtful criticism is what is like. Although, it's really difficult to find help on HOW to fix things, because the more I listen to my own songs, the more mistakes I notice. Like I can often hear "something sounds funny at 1:42," although it's a critic, the problem is I don't know whether he means the balance of the instruments or if it's a bad choice of a lead instrument, etc.

3. I honestly like to review people who review my songs, so it can get frustrating when people ONLY post for themselves and over time I don't feel like reviewing for them. I also tend to review for people who really need reviews, or if people do not respond at all to their thread. Of course, I tend to review songs that I actually recognize in order to give a fair review. Although I think there is a problem with thread popularity, as some remixes can sink into obscurity when threads get bumped up too much.

4. My idea for improving the WIP board would be to force 3 reviews per new forum topic in the WIP forums. That would make everyone have to review if they want their own song topic opened up. If people end up making one gigantic post of music about themselves, then I believe it should be 2 reviews per post on their on own thread. This would make the WIP boards a lot more constructive because no matter how many resources, warnings, guidelines, etc. are laid out, there will always be proper reviews and improper unsatisfying reviews. I think this idea would work since it would generate a good ratio between new threads and reviews, as sometimes it seems that new threads (and posts by their owners) are more in number than actual reviews.

Of course the major downside to it will be the increase of one word reviews such as "nice," "good," and etc. Since people will and may spam this in order to post in their own thread. This could be addressed by a word minimum of around 10-12 words.

[colinjstewart]

One more thing regarding question 2 -- I actually like it when different people say the same thing. That means there's some sort of consensus that something is good/bad. It's easy for me to dismiss someone's criticism that I don't agree with if only one person says it. But if two or three or four people have the same criticism, then I'll definitely take notice.

That said -- even if you agree with what's been said by other people already, say it again. No one remembers the melody of a song if it doesn't get repeated

[Dafydd]

#1 Do (or did) you know about OCR's resources and guidelines, like the guides, the remixing forum, the #ocrwip irc channel, the checklist, the submission standards, the remixing tab, the tutorials category...?

Everything but the "guides".

#2 What's the main thing you want from the wip board, what kind of feedback? Criticism, advice, suggestions, general opinion, help, encouragement... something else?

Applause! Seriously though, I like it when people can pinpoint whatever issue they have with my mix and give me some suggestions on how to fix it. Sometimes people critisize some very obvious things, but then again, I guess people should post near-finished mixes more often and not something they just started working on, as it leaves too much to critisize on and leaves the reviewer clueless as to what problems the remixer is aware of and not, unless the remixers have listed issues known to them by themselves.

#3 What motivates you to review (if you do)? Game, remixer, genre, thread popularity... or...?

If I have never even heard of the game, I'm not likely to enter the thread, unless it's posted by a remixer whose earlier remixes I've liked.

#4 Do you have an idea for improving the WIP board (see list), an observation you'd like to share, or something else to say about the WIP board and its use and quality?

I don't like how a lot of people just enter a thread, listen to the wip and don't comment on it. Also I'm a little unsure about linking to mp3 sources. All linking to and mention of Galbadia Hotel seems to be banned from OCR, so you'd have to host the source yourself or link to somewhere else, but I don't see how that could be any less illegal...

[HoboKa]

I agree, it's disgusting how many views one can get in a wip...sometimes up to 600-700, and have like 2 comments. I mean, that's sort of the epitome of laziness - then again, this is a site for fat-assed gamers

[Dafydd]

I agree, it's disgusting how many views one can get in a wip...sometimes up to 600-700, and have like 2 comments. I mean, that's sort of the epitome of laziness - then again, this is a site for fat-assed gamers

Never thought of it that way, but I guess there has to be more people just like me out there.

[Rozovian]

Thanks to everyone who've taken the time to answer so far.

I just added a question, and thought I'd let y'all know. I also realized I hadn't actually answered these myself.

#1 Do (or did) you know about OCR's resources and guidelines, like the guides, the remixing forum, the #ocrwip irc channel, the checklist, the submission standards, the remixing tab, the tutorials category...?

#2 What's the main thing you want from the wip board, what kind of feedback? Criticism, advice, suggestions, general opinion, help, encouragement... something else?

#3 What motivates you to review (if you do)? Game, remixer, genre, thread popularity... or...?

#4 Do you have an idea for improving the WIP board (see list), an observation you'd like to share, or something else to say about the WIP board and its use and quality?

#5 Is there anything in particular that bothers you about the WIP board?

#1 - Some time after writing the post and the questions, I looked around and found the tutorials category, which I then added.

#2 - What I'd like to see here is activity. More activity. There's more of that these days, but there's been times where I've barely seen anyone but the OPs and myself.

#3 Lack of posts. New WIPs. Friends' WIPs. Familiarity with the game. In that order.

#4 See this post, list of "diverse solutions" is what I've found on the site or come up with myself.

#5 Listeners that don't comment. See this post, "diverse problems".

[WillRock]

5. I would say that same as rozo, only I have found that not only do they not comment, they don't even click on the link or download the file.

I think I big problem with this is that is takes some knowledge of remixing to comment and a lot of people I bet aren't confident enough to try it.

Also, its more work than other forums to post, as you have to listen to a track and then post, which I personally don't like doing that much and I doubt I'm the only one. The reason community is so popular is that its so much easier to contribute I guess.

[Rozovian]

#1 Do (or did) you know about OCR's resources and guidelines, like the guides, the remixing forum, the #ocrwip irc channel, the checklist, the submission standards, the remixing tab, the tutorials category...?

#2 What's the main thing you want from the wip board, what kind of feedback? Criticism, advice, suggestions, general opinion, help, encouragement... something else?

#3 What motivates you to review (if you do)? Game, remixer, genre, thread popularity... or...?

#4 Do you have an idea for improving the WIP board (see list), an observation you'd like to share, or something else to say about the WIP board and its use and quality?

#5 Is there anything in particular that bothers you about the WIP board?

All right, it's now first on page 5.

Anyway, Blue Nocturne's idea for requiring people to comment before they can post is good in principle, but in practice I think it'll just deter people from posting wips. Also, it can result in random "great" or "sucks" comments until the poster can post his/her own work. But I'll add it to the list of diverse solutions.

One of the biggest problems with the wip board is that people don't think they know what to say unless they're remixers themselves. "I like the piano solo", "the guitar doesn't sound real", "I didn't recognize the original"... stuff like that is just as important as the technical nitpicks.

[HoboKa]

Honestly, I don't think that anything we do will make the people here critique more on our music, unless we gave them prizes or something...maybe have something where the person to give the most critiques (and quality ones) gets a $100 dollar prize or something lol.

[Dafydd]

Haha, wip judge of the month.

[WillRock]

Honestly, I don't think that anything we do will make the people here critique more on our music, unless we gave them prizes or something...maybe have something where the person to give the most critiques (and quality ones) gets a $100 dollar prize or something lol.

Lol that would be joke. Sadly, you have a valid point about that. People won't do anything unless bribed with money XD

[BardicKnowledge]

Questions for everyone on the wip board:

#1 Do (or did) you know about OCR's resources and guidelines, like the guides, the remixing forum, the #ocrwip irc channel, the checklist, the submission standards, the remixing tab, the tutorials category...?

#2 What's the main thing you want from the wip board, what kind of feedback? Criticism, advice, suggestions, general opinion, help, encouragement... something else?

#3 What motivates you to review (if you do)? Game, remixer, genre, thread popularity... or...?

#4 Do you have an idea for improving the WIP board (see list), an observation you'd like to share, or something else to say about the WIP board and its use and quality?

#5 Is there anything in particular that bothers you about the WIP board?

1) I do know about all of those, and occasionally will use the WIP review sheet IF I want to give a full-length review. Unfortunately, I don't feel qualified to comment on production issues at all, so I usually don't.

2) Any feedback is always welome. The only thing that I don't like receiving is when I specifically mention that something isn't done, and then get responses where they only mention how that one thing isn't done. ugh.

3) Game and familiarity with source tune usually motivates me. I'm trying to get into the habit of reviewing more often and titles I don't recognize. Classical genres get longer reviews from me because I feel like I'm more qualified there.

4) I would review more often if submitters would find "real" web-hosting for their WIPs as opposed to rapidshare etc. I like just clicking on a link and hearing the track. As for the whole board, I don't have anything to add to the discussion except to say that the front-page links to the forum are helpful.

5) People that have zero idea what they're talking about, or give ridiculous advice. Example: Telling a solo piano mix that it'd be much better if they'd just add instruments instead of leaving it as a piano solo!

[TheHands]

5) When folks try to make you into a puppet by telling you how to write your song, instead of how to improve it. If I don't want an accordion solo in a metal song, I probably don't want it for good reason. Honestly, if listening to something inspires you enough to change it drastically, then ask the musician for a colab instead, and see how it works.

[windkirby]

1) Only heard of the remixing forum. But then, I'm more of a listener than a remixer.

2) I don't remix - but I like to encourage.

3) Typically the game - I will most frequently frequent the remixes with games I like. I also tend to visit less popular threads than the more popular ones.

4) I enjoy the WIP board very much and have no complaints/suggestions.

5) See above - I'm good.

[Xenon Odyssey]

Questions for everyone on the wip board:

#1 Do (or did) you know about OCR's resources and guidelines, like the guides, the remixing forum, the #ocrwip irc channel, the checklist, the submission standards, the remixing tab, the tutorials category...?

#2 What's the main thing you want from the wip board, what kind of feedback? Criticism, advice, suggestions, general opinion, help, encouragement... something else?

#3 What motivates you to review (if you do)? Game, remixer, genre, thread popularity... or...?

#4 Do you have an idea for improving the WIP board (see list), an observation you'd like to share, or something else to say about the WIP board and its use and quality?

#5 Is there anything in particular that bothers you about the WIP board?

1) Of course; well aware of all these things.

2) The main thing I'd like from the WiP board is specific critique when requested. In my last wip thread, I asked for advice on the arrangment because I knew the mix sounded bad with just the midi sound. Only after PMing zircon did I actually get a good response about the arrangement and what I should do to improve it.

3) I may get a finger wagged at me for this, but I'm still one of those people who only listens to remixes from games they've played. Now, don't get me wrong; I'm a judge at OLR and I have to listen to everything that comes through, but I would rather listen to remixes that I know exactly where the source comes from in it's context. I'm sure I would not have the same attachment to some of the songs/remixes I have if it weren't for this fact. It's more of an emotional conection with something you recognize, you know? I think it also helps you decide what the remixer is trying to do with their mix and could help give you (the critiquer) some ideas for them.

4) Overall, I think things are good for the way they are. Granted, there could always be more critique, but people are busy and don't always have the time.

5) The fact that the judges are rarely here unless they're teasing us with a new WiP

[HoboKa]

I think "teasing" is an understatement...

[Gibbs]

I think this is outrageous. I have been downloading from OC Remix for years. I have never gotten INVOLVED in this community, but I have enjoyed hundreds of remixes and have several different folders for remix sets.

I have zero remixes from Hoboka, who apparently has a lot of drive to get something accepted. That's a pretty big failure IMO. I'm glad there wasn't a judges panel with super high standards to tell just starting remixers "this doesn't fit with the mainstream of what other remix songs sound like" back when this site was not as full and as followed as it is today. Maybe that's why there is a panel though to keep it from getting overloaded. I don't care what judges like, I care what I like.