OC ReMix on Spotify?

[Nabeel Ansari]

5 hours ago, Yogarine said:

I mean, OC ReMix could start out posting just the albums on streaming services every week or month or [insert random timeframe here]. Starting with either Kong in Concert, which, from what I gather, would be easily licensable, or Relics of the Chozo if it's possible to license it. Or, of course, if you're feeling adventurous, just upload it rogue. (There are plenty of Super Metroid fan arrangements on Spotify already, so either they got successfully licensed or Nintendo just doesn't seem to care. But I assume OC ReMix respects the original copyright holders sufficiently to not post unlicensed songs.) From there you just continue on, trying to get as many albums on there as possible. That _would_ constitute a moderate amount of effort.

No it _wouldn't_, because licensing even just a single album is not a "moderate amount" of effort.

You're also ignoring the fact that OCReMix generating revenue on the work of hundreds of artists is a recipe for disaster. Distributing revenue, generating tax forms, etc. Not a single person on this site ever signed a legal contract giving rights to OCR to monetize their work, nor did they sign it waiving their right to the revenue so that OCR could keep it for itself. The submission policy covers distribution, it does not grant OCR any rights to use the music commercially and for profit.

Also, just as an aside, if OCR does miraculously build all of the infrastructure needed for this project, it's now a commercial, for-profit entity and its eventual goal of getting the 501c3 non-profit status would go down the drain.

[Yogarine]

2 hours ago, Neblix said:

No it _wouldn't_, because licensing even just a single album is not a "moderate amount" of effort.

Why? Just upload it to Loudr and they do the rest. Is there anything else involved? Could you elaborate?

 

2 hours ago, Neblix said:

You're also ignoring the fact that OCReMix generating revenue on the work of hundreds of artists is a recipe for disaster. Distributing revenue, generating tax forms, etc. Not a single person on this site ever signed a legal contract giving rights to OCR to monetize their work, nor did they sign it waiving their right to the revenue so that OCR could keep it for itself. The submission policy covers distribution, it does not grant OCR any rights to use the music commercially and for profit.

From the submission policy:
"Any money we make from posting content is used strictly for operation & promotion of the site."

So yeah, any money made from streams would simply go to operation & promotion of the site. Says it pretty clearly, and all submitters agreed with that.And doesn't OC ReMix also already make revenue from their uploads to YouTube? Doesn't the same reasoning apply?

 

2 hours ago, Neblix said:

Also, just as an aside, if OCR does miraculously build all of the infrastructure needed for this project, it's now a commercial, for-profit entity and its eventual goal of getting the 501c3 non-profit status would go down the drain.

Not sure about the US legal code involved here, but could you explain why making revenue (read: not profit) would make the application for non-profit status down the drain? What about any revenue from YouTube?

 

[AngelCityOutlaw]

Why are you so hell bent on getting OCR on Spotify, again?

[jnWake]

13 hours ago, Yogarine said:

It's been stupid of me to not point this out specifically, but I never intended for _all_ of the OC Remix catalogue to be put on streaming services. Maybe some day, if possible, yes. But surely not initially. I was mostly considering the album projects. I mean, albums like Voices of the Lifestream would be pretty safe bets as they are easily licensed through, for example, Loudr (only one game per album for most of them), and from what I've seen Square Enix doesn't really make a big fuss about fan arrangements.

No hate but this part made me lol.

[timaeus222]

...Who said OCR makes [ad or other] revenue on youtube? If the staff doesn't allow other people to do it, why would they do it?

Straight from the FAQ:

Guess what? OCR doesn't have explicit permission from each artist right off-the-bat.

[Yogarine]

9 hours ago, AngelCityOutlaw said:

Why are you so hell bent on getting OCR on Spotify, again?

Mostly because it would be The Right Thing. But actually I already mentioned ease of sharing and recognition in an earlier post.

 

6 hours ago, jnWake said:

No hate but this part made me lol.

Because they do make a fuss? I don't know man. I'm just basing that from what I've seen. I've never submitted any Square Enix game arrangements anywhere myself though, so I really wouldn't know for sure. I've uploaded several gameplay vids from Final Fantasy games and they would get content ID tagged but still allow the videos to stay online. If you've seen other cases please enlighten me.

 

1 hour ago, timaeus222 said:

...Who said OCR makes [ad or other] revenue on youtube? If the staff doesn't allow other people to do it, why would they do it?

Straight from the FAQ:

Guess what? OCR doesn't have explicit permission from each artist right off-the-bat.

Like you said, that's about others (not OC ReMix itself) using music from OC ReMix elsewhere. And indeed, OC ReMix does not have explicit permission from each artist to relicense their work. So they're not in the position to license you to make revenue of anything they distribute.

And that makes sense, because the Submission Agreement clearly states:
"YOU retain ownership and copyright of all original material submitted in this fashion to OverClocked ReMix."

So the agreement does not allow OC ReMix to relicense songs submitted to it. However it also states:
"This license explicitly prohibits OverClocked ReMix from distributing submitted materials for for-profit endeavors. All revenue generated by advertising presented in the context of submitted materials will be used for costs directly associated with the operation and promotion of OverClocked ReMix."

So that's why third parties should go to the original author for licensing, because the Submission Agreement only covers distribution, not relicensing.

OC ReMix is, however, allowed to make revenue. However, any revenue they make goes straight into paying for operation and promotion of OC ReMix.

The reason I believe OC ReMix probably is making revenue from their YouTube videos is because I sometimes see ads when playing OC ReMix songs on YouTube. Considering YouTube content ID matching will not be able to automatically match fan arrangements, and assuming OC ReMix has not enabled showing ads for unmonetized videos, it means that the revuenue from those adds go to OC ReMix. It's not a lot of money though (a very wide, inaccurate approximation is about $1 per 1000 views) and they have all the right to make some revenue because they have hosting bills to pay.

[timaeus222]

 

1 hour ago, Yogarine said:

OC ReMix is, however, allowed to make revenue. However, any revenue they make goes straight into paying for operation and promotion of OC ReMix.

The reason I believe OC ReMix probably is making revenue from their YouTube videos is because I sometimes see ads when playing OC ReMix songs on YouTube. Considering YouTube content ID matching will not be able to automatically match fan arrangements, and assuming OC ReMix has not enabled showing ads for unmonetized videos, it means that the revuenue from those adds go to OC ReMix. It's not a lot of money though (a very wide, inaccurate approximation is about $1 per 1000 views) and they have all the right to make some revenue because they have hosting bills to pay.

Did you read what I quoted? I'll emphasize it:

"if OC ReMixes themselves are being monetized, being sold in any context, or you're [someone who is] generating revenue from ads while hosting OC ReMixes, the answer is NO, [you cannot simply use OC ReMixes in that manner.]" (e.g. in a YouTube video)

Like I said, if the staff doesn't want random people doing it, why would they themselves do it? It's hypocritical. The staff makes much of its money from selling OC ReMix merchandise.

Perhaps @Liontamer or @djpretzel could elaborate.

[Yogarine]

On 8/7/2016 at 6:54 AM, timaeus222 said:

Did you read what I quoted?

Yes I did. Did you read my post at all?

Once again, from the Submission Agreement:

Quote

1. By submitting material YOU are granting OverClocked ReMix a non-exclusive, sub-licensable, perpetual and universal license to use, distribute, perform, and/or to incorporate it in other works in any form, media or technology."
[...]
5. This license explicitly prohibits OverClocked ReMix from distributing submitted materials for for-profit endeavors. All revenue generated by advertising presented in the context of submitted materials will be used for costs directly associated with the operation and promotion of OverClocked ReMix.

It's not hipocritical at all. By agreeing with the Submission Agreement, the submitter licenses OC ReMix to distribute their music, but as long as OC ReMix doesn't make profit. So any revenue OC ReMix makes goes into operation and promotion. Also, they aren't allowed to permit others to make profit when using any music downloaded from OC ReMix covered under the Submission Agreement.

For the record, up until now I thought that OC ReMix simply isn't allowed to sub-license, but actually they are. But the sub-license agreement also specifically states that it should be non-profit:

Quote

OverClocked ReMix grants all parties a limited, non-exclusive, non-transferable, universal license to use, redistribute, incorporate into other works, and publicly perform OverClocked ReMixes as long as the following criteria are met:

A.) No profit is made from the exercise of this license. This includes but is not limited to incorporation of OverClocked ReMixes into commercial works, charging or accepting more than the cost of the delivery means or medium(s) for redistributing OverClocked ReMixes, accepting donations and/or offering "Name Your Own Price" options for OverClocked ReMixes, or redistributing OverClocked ReMixes in the context of commercial advertisements. Playback or live performance of OverClocked ReMixes may occur in commercial contexts such as streams, videos, stores, private clubs, or gatherings, so long as no cost is explicitly associated with listening to them and no endorsement of the commercial entity by OverClocked ReMix can be inferred.

Anyway, please understand that even if OC ReMix monetises and generates revenue from their YouTube uploads, it doesn't mean it's making its making profit.

Also, the FAQ answer you quote seems to be contrary to the precise wording of the license agreement (probably for simplicity's sake). If you're distributing OC ReMix songs and have ads on the site to help pay for hosting costs, this wouldn't constitute profit and would still be ok. However if you're making more money with the ads than you actually spend on hosting & bandwith costs than you're making profit and you should remove the ads.

Now if you upload OC ReMix songs to YouTube without changing a thing and enable monetisation, you're automatically making a profit, because you're not incurring any fees for the distribution of the music so you can't justify any revenue from the song not being profit. That's why simply uploading OC ReMix songs and monetising just isn't allowed for anyone except OC ReMix.

However if you're actually adding to the video (by making an OVA or using the music as background music) you're actually allowed to monetise.
From the Terms of Use:

Quote

You can use OC ReMix content in your videos, streams, podcasts, etc. or at parties, stores, clubs, etc. as long as you're not profiting directly from its usage.

This means that if you're using a mix in a YouTube video or Twitch stream, for example, you can still have ads, as long as the video isn't just the mix & you're actually adding something.

 

I hope this clears things up.

[timaeus222]

I did already read what you had, but I still don't agree with your interpretation of intent. Going out and purposefully placing ads on OC ReMix videos would result in generating revenue off of free music.

[Yogarine]

6 minutes ago, timaeus222 said:

I did already read what you had, but I still don't agree with your interpretation of intent. Going out and purposefully placing ads on OC ReMix videos would result in generating revenue off of free music.

Making revenue is okay for OC ReMix because they wouldn't be making any profit. (All the revenue goes to hosting and promotion.)

Anyone else re-uploading OC ReMix songs to YouTube and monetising would implicitly be making profit of the songs.

[Gario]

8 hours ago, Yogarine said:

Because they do make a fuss? I don't know man. I'm just basing that from what I've seen. I've never submitted any Square Enix game arrangements anywhere myself though, so I really wouldn't know for sure. I've uploaded several gameplay vids from Final Fantasy games and they would get content ID tagged but still allow the videos to stay online. If you've seen other cases please enlighten me.

Yes, they do make a fuss - specifically, Square Enix got very upset when the OCR FF6 album kickstarter got underway to fund a physical release of the album (all money went into printing the album - no profit was to be made). Some negotiation happened and they eventually allowed it under certain conditions, but it was a very complex ordeal that took months to resolve. No one but Pretzel and Zircon (the album's head person) knows the full details of the negotiation, but to say the least it wasn't simple or easy.

[timaeus222]

23 hours ago, Yogarine said:

Making revenue is okay for OC ReMix because they wouldn't be making any profit. (All the revenue goes to hosting and promotion.)

Anyone else re-uploading OC ReMix songs to YouTube and monetising would implicitly be making profit of the songs.

That's not why I'm concerned. Making money as a non-profit entity adds the chance for suspicion. Anyone can wrongly accuse OCR, and that technically can be minimized by limiting money made associated with the OC ReMixes themselves. 

Anyways, I think the staff made it clear that Spotify probabl won't be on the radar for a while when it comes to licensing thousands of source tunes (less for albums, but still a lot) and streaming the ReMixes. For now, if you really want to share a streaming service that has OC ReMixes, go to http://ocr.rainwave.cc/

[zircon]

I'm going to play devil's advocate and say that I really like Spotify, and I think it could potentially be really cool to see some of our albums there. I think the submission agreement doesn't preclude that either. With regards to the licensing itself, I stumbled on some interesting info below:

http://aristake.com/post/how-to-legally-release-cover-songs

Most of this is (somewhat) common knowledge stuff, but the following jumped out to me:

"Spotify ALREADY PAYS mechanical royalties directly to HFA (and then HFA pays publishers)... Spotify is paying a mechanical royalty rate at about $.0007 per stream. Not to be confused with the sound recording royalty rate (which is about $.006 per stream on Spotify)..."

The licensing angle could indeed be covered, but as mentioned, only for certain games. The soundtrack had to have seen a public US release first.

Ultimately it's up to Dave. I think that arguably Spotify monetization is less intrusive for end users than YouTube-inflicted ads, and it WOULD be a cool platform to see our remixes on. Not to mention the royalty payments to the original writer(s) and publisher(s) would be handled by Spotify itself. Just sayin'.

[OceansAndrew]

Some of the Licensed OCR stuff is on spotify

 

[MindWanderer]

On 8/7/2016 at 10:59 AM, Gario said:

Yes, they do make a fuss - specifically, Square Enix got very upset when the OCR FF6 album kickstarter got underway to fund a physical release of the album (all money went into printing the album - no profit was to be made). Some negotiation happened and they eventually allowed it under certain conditions, but it was a very complex ordeal that took months to resolve. No one but Pretzel and Zircon (the album's head person) knows the full details of the negotiation, but to say the least it wasn't simple or easy.

Also, Square Enix is the only company that demands a specific rule for OCR arrangements--that they include absolutely no audio sampled directly from their games--and they demanded the removal of all official Square Enix artwork from the site (which meant that when we had the random mascot thing, a whole bunch of them were Mega Man X but linked to a Square Enix character).

You want a company that's cool with fan creations, look at Capcom (which has worked with many remix artists, including OCR, to directly sponsor and monetize their work, plus promoting fan projects like Street Fighter x Mega Man) or Sega (which promotes all kinds of fan creations, from games to art to music, including a remix podcast hosted by our own Rexy).  But even those require a healthy amount of work of there's any money involved.

[timaeus222]

3 hours ago, OA said:

Some of the Licensed OCR stuff is on spotify

Haha, "OCR" - OC Records

[OceansAndrew]

17 hours ago, timaeus222 said:

Haha, "OCR" - OC Records

also tracks 4 and 7 are on OCR itself

[timaeus222]

5 hours ago, OA said:

also tracks 4 and 7 are on OCR itself

OH yeah, I remember those! Loved that title, "Jin's Tonic".

[The Nikanoru]

Well, since there seems to be a reluctance to pursue the non-licenced remixes route, and OC Records already has a presence on Spotify, then why not run with that and actively promote OC Records to streaming services? This would be a great way (IMO) to promote the name of OCR. Think about it: anyone looking for OC Records online will come across OC Remix anyway. If OC Remix has too many hurdles to jump, why not use the OC Records brand to promote OCR as a whole?

Just a suggestion.

 

[Gario]

11 minutes ago, The Nikanoru said:

Well, since there seems to be a reluctance to pursue the non-licenced remixes route, and OC Records already has a presence on Spotify, then why not run with that and actively promote OC Records to streaming services? This would be a great way (IMO) to promote the name of OCR. Think about it: anyone looking for OC Records online will come across OC Remix anyway. If OC Remix has too many hurdles to jump, why not use the OC Records brand to promote OCR as a whole?

Just a suggestion.

Hmm, that might not be a bad idea, but that's assuming the artists both haven't done so already, and are willing to publish their work on Spotify. Unlike OCR, I don't believe OverClocked Records has any distribution rights to the music itself, save for placing it on sale as a digital download (Correct me if I'm wrong - I didn't find the legal nitty-gritty on the OC Records site off-hand).

I think the artists are absolutely free to publish their OC Records music on Spotify, though, so if they do, awesome.

[The Nikanoru]

55 minutes ago, Gario said:

Hmm, that might not be a bad idea, but that's assuming the artists both haven't done so already, and are willing to publish their work on Spotify. Unlike OCR, I don't believe OverClocked Records has any distribution rights to the music itself, save for placing it on sale as a digital download (Correct me if I'm wrong - I didn't find the legal nitty-gritty on the OC Records site off-hand).

I think the artists are absolutely free to publish their OC Records music on Spotify, though, so if they do, awesome.

Obviously some already have, but it's one thing for individual artists to do so and another thing for OC Records as a whole to endorse it. Now I have no idea what legal requirements would be needed to put this in gear - aside from a printing bill for a whole bunch of new contracts for everyone to sign - and I have no idea whether distribution rights or simply permission would be required for this; but as I say, from a branding standpoint I think it would be a good thing to at least look at whether an 'official' OC Records presence on Spotify itself or other streaming services would be worth pursuing.

Gotta get the word out!