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HideousBeing
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GIMP? C'mon. It's not a bad app, but not in a league with Photoshop.

Don't be so quick to bag out GIMP. I will admit, my preference is with Photoshop, and that the interface for GIMP is terrible (not that there aren't ways around that), however there are things that GIMP does WAAAAAAAAAAAAAY better than Photoshop. For example, the pattern maker for Photoshop is horrid. Absolutely horrid. GIMP's on the otherhand, is quite good. And its so much faster.

That, and GIMP can both read and save PSD files (photoshop's default format), and a few others that I've found handy over the years. Like windows .ico (icon pictures) files, which is nice if you like making your own icons.

But I'm surprised that there isn't much of a mention of software deals that a heap of educational mobs get. Like me being able to pick up The Adobe Master Collection CS3 for $500 (that's australian. so it'd be cheaper in the US I'd wager :nicework:). Also, M$ does a program called MSDN (I think the educational version is called MSDNAA), where you can download heaps of their stuff for free (including entire OSs).

I understand some people don't have jobs, and that's fair enough, but you'd be surprised at some of the discounts educational institutions give/get their students, especially on software.

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gimp isn't anywhere near photoshop. no offense, but who cares about .ico files? you don't make icons with photoshop, you make them with paint. you make high-end graphics projects that earn you money with photoshop.

ROFL

http://stockicons.com/collections

People make icons in Photoshop (with special .ico plugins) and they sell them for a lot of money. Creating icons is just another part of graphic design, and is especially useful in user-interface development. .ico files in particular can contain multiple versions of the same images, specially tweaked for different icon sizes. That's why a lot of icons don't look poorly resampled when you scale them down from 32x32 to 16x16; there are actually multiple images in the file.

And no, you don't make icons in Paint. Paint doesn't natively support the .ico format. Renaming a .bmp to .ico doesn't actually make it an icon file. It's just a bitmap that Windows will display a resampled thumbnail for.

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gimp isn't anywhere near photoshop. no offense, but who cares about .ico files? you don't make icons with photoshop, you make them with paint. you make high-end graphics projects that earn you money with photoshop.

What kind of argument is that, how is having format compatibility bad?

Besides, you can't even use paint to save in .ico format.

edit: well poop, Darke got to it faster than I did

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And no, you don't make icons in Paint. Paint doesn't natively support the .ico format. Renaming a .bmp to .ico doesn't actually make it an icon file. It's just a bitmap that Windows will display a resampled thumbnail for.

i meant it more as a representative thing, i know paint doesn't save in .ico format, but you don't need a 500$ program to make them. and wait, are you saying that selling icons will make more money than making art with photoshop? or that enough people make icons to actually justify even having this argument? how the hell does that work?

i'm not saying format compatibility is bad, but why would you go with a lesser version of a program just so you could get a few more somewhat esoteric filetypes?

what i WAS pointing out is that you don't go into graphics design to work in the shitty free version of photoshop, you work WITH photoshop. can you imagine walking into a design firm and saying that you don't know photoshop, i just know gimp? they'll throw you out on your ass. it's like showing up as a musician to a gig and saying that you only know how to communicate by whispering, not talking. you still get the point across, but there's SO MUCH MORE out there that you can't take advantage of because you haven't taken the time to figure it out.

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i meant it more as a representative thing, i know paint doesn't save in .ico format, but you don't need a 500$ program to make them. and wait, are you saying that selling icons will make more money than making art with photoshop? or that enough people make icons to actually justify even having this argument? how the hell does that work?

I'm not arguing GIMP vs. Photoshop anything. I'm just pointing out that you shouldn't exclude making icons from "high-end graphics projects." What do you think graphic designers do? A lot of graphic designers make logos, UI elements, website graphics, application icons, etc. This stuff isn't Art™. It's not a metaphor for the human condition. It's a picture of a pencil being used for an edit button. That's what pays. It's just like music; you'll make far more money scoring commercials and writing jingles than you will selling your Concerto in D Minor.

But anyway, odds are if you're serious about graphic design, you should be buying a copy of Photoshop anyway, because yes, it is industry standard, and yes, you're going to be using it for work.

Most people who pirate Photoshop are not graphic designers, and most of those people don't need to be using the "industry standard." They can get by with GIMP. Hell they can get by with Paint.NET. To be perfectly honest, they can probably get by with some of those online image editing apps.

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Most people who pirate Photoshop are not graphic designers, and most of those people don't need to be using the "industry standard." They can get by with GIMP. Hell they can get by with Paint.NET. To be perfectly honest, they can probably get by with some of those online image editing apps.

But I don't want to just get by, I want to make my pictures the best they can be, I want to make them bewtifullll

OK actually I have no idea how to use photoshop but my point still stands I think

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I find that usually (but not always!) free alternatives are not even close to as powerful of programs, or don't use the format that the class program uses. Also, if you already have a student right or whatever to be using the program, what difference does it really make between in the lab or at home??

Who said you have a "student right"? That's BS. I never said that and that right doesn't exist.

Not everyone lives on, or near, campus. As such, driving out day after day can eat up a lot of gas, money, and time. So, you wind up with people downloading a trial version, and then using a program like runasdate to make the trial version last longer than 30 days (assuming they just don't download a cracked version outright).

Another bad argument. Many Drexel students commute, and if they have to spend long hours in the labs to do their work, that's just how it goes. Anyone doing advanced engineering can't work from home anyway, so plenty of people deal with this issue already. Art students should be no different.

The computer labs close at 8 PM, like the rest of the school. If everyone not owning legal copies of the programs he needs only used the computers at school to get his stuff done, the place would be helplessly overcrowded all the time. Not enough capacity.

Then your school is poorly planning their media labs. If they can't provide tools to students to do their work then they're not doing a good job planning. Think about it. Even if they had an expectation that people would be pirating stuff, how do they know that any given student has a fast enough connection to do that anyway? Or that a student even HAS their own computer? All that being said, can't people just come in early or work during study periods? When I had to do lab work at Drexel, I did all of it in between classes or a little after my classes ended. I never worked past 8PM.

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But I don't want to just get by, I want to make my pictures the best they can be, I want to make them bewtifullll

OK actually I have no idea how to use photoshop but my point still stands I think

Stands but has no substance. Having the best and greatest tools isn't even necessary for learning, IMO, with Photoshop being, perhaps, the only exception because nothing else is really in its league. I learned to program in DOS on a crappy 486-25 MHz and later a 66 MHz in the days when Pentiums were hitting a few hundred MHz. I picked up some assembly language skills and learned a lot about optimization that I wouldn't have learned on a faster machine. Not having the latest tools was no problem.

For arguments about Photoshop, Finale/Sibelius, and other such tools being required for education but also expensive...so? Isn't that the cost of being in your chosen program? I wouldn't expect to be a science student without either having to pay lab fees for some courses or having those rolled into my tuition. I wouldn't expect to be an electrical or computer engineer and get handed free circuit boards and resistors all the time. I'd expect that if I'm a computer science student, I'll either need my own computer to a greater extent than most others would, or be prepared to spend my time in the lab (if that's even possible).

It's *my* responsibility to determine the costs of my program before I enroll; if I can't meet them, I should get a loan and/or spend less money on less important things like state-of-the-art cell phones, iPods, gaming PCs, video games, alcohol, eating out all the time, etc. Not to mention that software is very often available at academic prices, if not from your school directly than from other retailers.

I'm not morally entitled to rip off software developers simply because I meet the (likely low) admission criteria to get into school.

It all comes back to those who pirate not have the moral character to recognize that what they're doing is wrong (or, at least, to care), and the overwhelming sense of entitlement that is far too prevalent in today's society.

Why are you so grumpy zircon we are just explaining our actions

If by explaining, you mean making laughable attempts to justify illegal behaviour without morals or logic, then yes, yes you are (you in a general sense; you're obviously not the only person here taking your position).

Then your school is poorly planning their media labs. If they can't provide tools to students to do their work then they're not doing a good job planning. Think about it. Even if they had an expectation that people would be pirating stuff, how do they know that any given student has a fast enough connection to do that anyway? Or that a student even HAS their own computer? All that being said, can't people just come in early or work during study periods? When I had to do lab work at Drexel, I did all of it in between classes or a little after my classes ended. I never worked past 8PM.

Not to mention that there are free or cheap ways to keep labs constantly open, such as putting a security pad on the door and changing the code every term, or having a network admin competent enough to only allow specific users to log into the computers in a lab.

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Then your school is poorly planning their media labs. If they can't provide tools to students to do their work then they're not doing a good job planning. Think about it. Even if they had an expectation that people would be pirating stuff, how do they know that any given student has a fast enough connection to do that anyway? Or that a student even HAS their own computer? All that being said, can't people just come in early or work during study periods? When I had to do lab work at Drexel, I did all of it in between classes or a little after my classes ended. I never worked past 8PM.

....

The school doesn't direct enough money into the digital department, and I suspect that's because THERE IS NO MORE MONEY.

What does one pay to study at Drexel without a scholarship, per semester?

24/7 media labs with enough computers to accomodate the whole school cost money. You pay for your 'good planning'.

Fast enough connection? Not everyone owning their own computer?? Well, so far I met one person at my school that hasn't got a computer with internet, and he indeed did everything at school he had to. He was able to because the 150 other people from just the same semester didn't all do the same thing.

Btw, ever considered that someone might prefer to get creative at home, not in some grey assortment of desks with macs and terribly overused mice without right click?

I'll stop here...Seems like you're mostly nitpicking to come to the conclusion that laziness is still the main factor. And you're right. It's entirely possible to somehow get by without warez in my or a similar situation, the point is that it'd be a FUCKING PAIN IN THE ASS.

Your situation is different, and you don't have to believe my scenario at all to imagine another believable scenario that simply isn't as comfortable as yours.

'Well at Drexel...' Seriously.

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Another bad argument. Many Drexel students commute, and if they have to spend long hours in the labs to do their work, that's just how it goes. Anyone doing advanced engineering can't work from home anyway, so plenty of people deal with this issue already. Art students should be no different.

No, it's not. If Drexel students can afford to spend the money and time to get back and forth constantly, and don't have to worry about a job that keeps them busy on their days off or when they're not in class, that's great. I'm glad life is working out for them time-wise. But there are a lot of other people who have to work and go to class, and they can't get to a computer lab at 10PM (or later) to work on their assignments (be it because there's no more bus service that late, can't afford the taxi fare, the computer labs are closed, etc). And I won't even go into the idea of when the computer labs are actually open, and not housing a class for three hours at a time.

You're counter argument reminds me of past art instructors who used to tell their students "Money's not an issue" when they told them to buy a hundred dollars worth of supplies for the next class that was two days away, and half the class says they can't afford it. Sure, it's not an issue for those with money, but for those who don't, it's a big, big issue. As such, because one part of a student body has the means to do something, doesn't mean all of every student body does.

Does any of this make downloading $1000 programs just peachy keen? Of course not. People grabbing a copy of Sonar or Lightwave so they can play around with it and use it for their job isn't something I look fondly upon either. But, there are times when you need to use a program for two months for a class, so you extend the trial period because you can't get to a computer lab at the drop of a hat, or fork out $300 willy-nilly for a student version of the needed program that you'll likely never touch again after that two month period's over.

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I respect that many (most?) people have the integrity to pay for every single thing they ever use, I really do, but I don't think it's at all fair to decree that anyone who downloads something for free did so purely because they are lazy and immature. Not everyone who has pirated a program is a rampant downloader who wants teh warez. If I want to play around with a program and then forget about it, that usage isn't worth several hundred dollars, and yes in black and white terms it's wrong, but the infraction is so morally minor in my perception that I don't think it's something worth getting your panties in a twist over.

I wouldn't be surprised if Leonardo DaVinci stole his first paints :-)

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Because he is a moderator.

This is how OCR moderators talk to its users: trying to pretend they're superior than others.

This debate has been quite civil so far - even us "OCR moderators" have disagreed with each other (Anso, BGC, djp, Palpable, myself...) so how about we keep it that way.

The school doesn't direct enough money into the digital department, and I suspect that's because THERE IS NO MORE MONEY.

What does one pay to study at Drexel without a scholarship, per semester?

24/7 media labs with enough computers to accomodate the whole school cost money. You pay for your 'good planning'.

Why are you taking this so personally? I'm not attacking you or saying your school is "bad", I'm just saying that it doesn't seem logical to offer courses in a design discipline and then not provide students the resources to do their work. That's like teaching advanced chemistry but not having enough chem labs for all the students.

Now, according to you, your school does have labs that provide everything a student needs to do their work. But there are too many students. The simple solution is just to limit class sizes.

I don't think it's a really controversial point to say a learning institution should probably not be putting its students in the position of having to take ethically questionable actions just to do their homework.

No, it's not. If Drexel students can afford to spend the money and time to get back and forth constantly, and don't have to worry about a job that keeps them busy on their days off or when they're not in class, that's great. I'm glad life is working out for them time-wise. But there are a lot of other people who have to work and go to class, and they can't get to a computer lab at 10PM (or later) to work on their assignments (be it because there's no more bus service that late, can't afford the taxi fare, the computer labs are closed, etc). And I won't even go into the idea of when the computer labs are actually open, and not housing a class for three hours at a time.

Coop, most people I know here hold jobs while they attend school. I have a job as well. AND I commute. And I still find time to do my work in school labs, when I need to, BEFORE 10pm.

Again, all I'm saying here is that a learning institution shouldn't be putting its students in the position of relying on piracy to do basic homework. If the institution DOES do that, it still doesn't justify the actions of the students.

and yes in black and white terms it's wrong, but the infraction is so morally minor in my perception that I don't think it's something worth getting your panties in a twist over.

I don't know who you think is "getting [their] panties in a twist over", because early in this thread, I specifically said that I don't really care if people pirate things. I said it was slightly unethical, but really, hardly at all. So many people do it that's it's not a big deal. My ONLY beef is with people that try to say it's NOT unethical. It sounds like you and I are in perfect agreement :P

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No, it's not. If Drexel students can afford to spend the money and time to get back and forth constantly, and don't have to worry about a job that keeps them busy on their days off or when they're not in class, that's great. I'm glad life is working out for them time-wise. But there are a lot of other people who have to work and go to class, and they can't get to a computer lab at 10PM (or later) to work on their assignments (be it because there's no more bus service that late, can't afford the taxi fare, the computer labs are closed, etc). And I won't even go into the idea of when the computer labs are actually open, and not housing a class for three hours at a time.

You're counter argument reminds me of past art instructors who used to tell their students "Money's not an issue" when they told them to buy a hundred dollars worth of supplies for the next class that was two days away, and half the class says they can't afford it. Sure, it's not an issue for those with money, but for those who don't, it's a big, big issue. As such, because one part of a student body has the means to do something, doesn't mean all of every student body does.

If you can't afford to be in school, including all the extras, and can't/won't get a loan, there may be problems with government funding and available scholarship money, but other than that, you shouldn't be there if you can't pay, which means paying for all the extras. A prudent school would roll all that into tuition, so that supplies and software would be covered, within reason (i.e. "You get these art supplies which should be enough; if you want/need more, you're on your own"). That said, I only knew one competent university administrative type out of the many I dealt with over 7 years of school.

While I still maintain that if you can't afford it, you shouldn't be there, it *is* a problem to expect that students have no cash flow issues and can easily spend $200 within two days and without warning. If profs had a course outline that clearly spelled out your expected expenses over the term, or, like I suggested, somehow charged you up front for supplies, that's one thing, but hitting people with unexpected charges is only a sign of a poor prof (or at least one who lives comfortably enough to be completely out of touch with the finances of the average student).

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It admittedly sucks needing a particular program to finish work for school... My two (sad) solutions at school was either sleeping at the school (which I did many, MANY times), as the buses stopped at 10PM, or work at the labs so I have special access to the computers at any time I need... Of course, these are not really reasonable options for most of you (e.g. you probably have some sort of life, unlike I did at school), so I can see where this whole software piracy is a big concern for education.

But there are too many students. The simple solution is just to limit class sizes.

I'd hate to see it in a college, but limiting the class sizes would fix a lot when it comes to availability for the students. If the classes fill up often enough, the school should expand and buy more equipment, as it is obviously an area that makes them money :P

Now, I personally am indifferent if somebody is pirating or not, but I try not to when I can help it. If it is an emergency I may get it and get rid of it after I'm done (somebody needs a score the next week and I don't have the same program s/he does, for example), or get it then buy the program when I have the finances to do so (if I really liked the program), but I feel that if you want your music to be heard or go public it's just better to own what you have.

...It feels better, anyway.

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Btw, ever considered that someone might prefer to get creative at home, not in some grey assortment of desks with macs and terribly overused mice without right click?

I'd totally prefer to fly a helicopter to work (there's even a municipal airport within easy walking distance where I could land!) but I can't afford a helicopter, so I spend two hours a day commuting in my '97 Honda instead. Just because you "prefer" to do something doesn't mean you're entitled to it. If you want to do something, but you can't afford it, then you don't do it. Simple as that.

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Coop, most people I know here hold jobs while they attend school. I have a job as well. AND I commute. And I still find time to do my work in school labs, when I need to, BEFORE 10pm.

Again, all I'm saying here is that a learning institution shouldn't be putting its students in the position of relying on piracy to do basic homework. If the institution DOES do that, it still doesn't justify the actions of the students.

I'm glad things are working out for you, despite your busy schedule, zircon (that's not sarcasm by the way). But know that there are institutes that do put such a burden on their students, and places that don't offer much in the way of public transportation after 7 or 8 PM (hell, we don't have public transportation that runs out here at all). And in those situations, I don't see extending the trial of something like After Effects as that big an issue as long as it's gotten rid of once the classroom need for it is over.

Kanthos- That's the problem. Nearly every professor I had only made a very generalized list of supplies, and didn't provide a price range. They just said "Here's what you need for next time, go get it". It's not that they were bad instructors (though some later turned out to be very questionable in their abilities), it was simply them expecting the students to have a healthy amount of money right off the bat... which wasn't the case if students were relying on the refund from their tuition loans/grants to get their supplies (this would take anywhere from a couple weeks, to a couple months, to receive).

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And in those situations, I don't see extending the trial of something like After Effects as that big an issue as long as it's gotten rid of once the classroom need for it is over.

I agree... it's not a big issue. Like I said I don't think any individual cases of piracy as as big deal, as long as we admit that it isn't ethical and that we should try to find ways to avoid it where possible. In the case of learning institutions, this means either providing necessary software to students, providing heavy discounts (bringing their price down to something similar to a textbook), or making labs accessible.

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Kanthos- That's the problem. Nearly every professor I had only made a very generalized list of supplies, and didn't provide a price range. They just said "Here's what you need for next time, go get it".

I'd argue that makes them a bad instructor (at least as it relates to preparedness). Not having a schedule with either a list of materials (i.e. "For this assignment, you'll be using pastels", and the student can obviously read between the lines and figure out how much to get) or a specific list of things to buy tells me that the prof didn't put enough thought into the course ahead of time but expects me to do so in order to avoid deadlines (start assignments well before they're due, etc.)

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If I decide against commuting to a lab with software that I am entitled to use, and instead pirate the same software, I'm doing my part to preserve the environment. I'm being partially serious, and here's why:

I think the arguments against piracy regarding supporting the company being followed up with "drive to the lab and use the software there" present a non-sequitor. I did mention before that a lot of these anti-piracy alternatives still don't support the company. At least the students are using their cars less :P

How is that alternative unethical?

Case 1: Adobe doesn't get your money or support.

Case 2: Adobe doesn't get your money or support.

I think a lot of you aren't thinking outside the box, and automatically hear the word pirate and the alarms go off in your head and you say "BAD BAD BAD", but you don't really think about whether any business is really getting hurt. I understand that if I'm not a student and I have no lab alternative, then yes, I should deal with the inconvenience of not having the software. That emphasizes the ethics and consequences of not having money and how being poor sucks. It was a good point. But I like this student example, because there's still an agreeable alternative of driving to the lab that still does not support the company.

I reiterate. Cases 1 and 2, both: Adobe does not get your money or support.

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