Sonic the Hedgehog 4

[zircon]

Yeah, but even with BlazBlue, the art took forever. SirNuts You can argue with me all you want about how it's not actually hard but I was involved in HDR's development and there are public posts by Dave Sirlin talking about how they went WAY over budget largely due to art.

[Shadowe]

Honestly I don't care if they go and cannibalize the original stuff and just run it through HQ4x as long as they don't go New-SMB on me and give me something with the shittiest most unreliable "Meh, Close Enough" clipping and hit detection ever.

^^^ That and if they follow after Sonic Rush and make the whole game a lot of "HAH GOTCHA" kills you need to memorize to survive and turn half the levels into gimmicky X-over-bottomless-death shite I'll be dissapointed. Look through all four classic sonic games and bottomless death pits are used quite sparingly compared to being the majority of a level as they are in the newer sonic games.

[Brushfire]

You know, that is probably the most likely thing to happen Shadowe.

[Ramaniscence]

Yeah, but even with BlazBlue, the art took forever. SirNuts You can argue with me all you want about how it's not actually hard but I was involved in HDR's development and there are public posts by Dave Sirlin talking about how they went WAY over budget largely due to art.

Any chance you have a link to discussion on this or something? I'm googling but I can't really find anything about the development of BlazBlue beyond just "previews."

Honestly in an age of vector art that scales infinitely and flash animation, I find it pretty hard to believe HD sprites could be THAT MUCH more difficult to produce, in most situations (though I do understand with HDR how they were working with existing things, that people were pretty familiar with already, and were thusly under a LOT of pressure to "get it right"). I mean, 1080i is like what, 1920×1080? That's hardly even a computer monitor. Giving that eat character is probably 60% of the height of the screen, at best, that's barely 600 pixels. 600 pixels tall doesn't seem like that much, shit most digital, static art starts out as easily 3x that, but then I guess you're looking at. I mean, I wonder what the budget for big name 2D video games looks like versus say the budget for big name animes. Obviously animes will have a lot more, but I feel like video games would probably have far less animation, too. But now I'm just thinking outload.

What José says makes somewhat more sense, but that has less to do with the resolution of the sprites themselves, and more to do with the fact that, now, instead of animating 3 or 4 frames per second of animation, you're doing 10+ (Maybe even 30+, but really it seems like overkill for a fighting game that could probably easily get away with 2 frames for a lot of things, though I do love the way Kim's pants move in KoF).

Either way, I'm interested.

Oh this also reminds me: If you guys have a deviantArt (oh I know you do, don't deny it) you should follow Udon. It is the win: http://udoncrew.deviantart.com/

[WeirdoZ Inc]

Blazblue would've been arduous because they animated the characters traditionally, then had to trace them pixel by pixel like a traditional pixel art. Street Fighter HD would've been annoying because they had to be pretty strict in order to keep the sprites in the same amount of blocks as the original (See here). They also had to maintain the ability for palette swaps (Not sure if it was actual palettes or just a new set of sprites per color). A game like Wario Land Shake would've taken a fraction of the time as either (let's assume they had the same amount of frames per character), even if it was done in HD.

As long as it all animates well, it's no different than creating a game in say, Flash. It's basically just like animating a cartoon, not that it's quick and easy.

[Bleck]

there are public posts by Dave Sirlin talking about how they went WAY over budget largely due to art.

maybe they were just bad at it this is a joke

[Sir_NutS]

I'd agree in theory, but we've seen the bitching happen during development of SF HD Remix, albeit in hyper-sensitive fashion. Smaller sprites would be much more forgiving, but when every tiny detail is apparent in an HD sprite, even if you're off by a 10th of an inch when animated, people would notice. I can imagine a lot more effort to get it right, from the get-go. Granted, in the case of SFHDR, they had to match up with the old sprites and hitboxes; in a new game with new animation (such as BlazBlue), there'd be less pressure.

Yeah most of the problems that went down with SFHD (from the post from udon and the interviews I read) was trying to make the sprites faithful to the originals and also the animations were looking clunky when they were re-done in HD. For a company like vanillaware who is used to work with this kind of art and that doesn't have to stick to some old and small sprites it shouldn't be as hard.

Also remember that the same "every little detail is apparent" also goes for 3d models meant to run in HD, so although you don't really have to draw every frame of animation for a 3d model there are many, many other things that have to be done to get a good and detailed 3d model.

[JCvgluvr]

Did I mention that I was excited by the Sonic 4 announcement? Because...I am. I've never been this hyped for a Sonic game before. (Even if Sonic Unleashed for 360 came close.)

[SoloGamer]

As strike911 posted in the other thread, a video and a screen shot have been leaked on 1up.com. They've both been taken down, but here's a link that probably won't go down as quickly.

http://tweaker.sonicretro.org/22717159001_66849663001_LeakedSonic4Alpha.mov

And the screenshot:

[q-pa]

a video and a screen shot have been leaked on 1up.com. They've both been taken down, but here's a link that probably won't go down as quickly.

Finally get to see the game in action and I must say I'm relatively pleased.

But OCR should definitely keep trying to do the music for future episodes...

[SoloGamer]

Well, here's our first genuine surprise since the official reveal of Sonic 4: Sega, and its cherished Sonic Team studio, isn't developing the game.

Instead, Osaka-based Dimps will be. Best known for their recent work on Street Fighter IV with Capcom (and also for its work on Dragonball Z's cartoon fighters), Dimps will also be known to Sonic fans as the developers behind games like Sonic Rush and Sonic Advance

Those titles are among the best Sonic games in recent memory, showing that while the blue hedgehog continued to blunder through ill-suited 3D environments, there was still life in the concept of a fast, 2D Sonic game.

Meaning this is a rare example of smart thinking by Sega Japan, realising that if this game had any chance of success whatsoever, it was best to put it in the hands of somebody not only experienced at decent 2D Sonic games, but who also did not have "Sonic Team" on their business cards.

http://kotaku.com/5473427/sega-not-developing-sonic-4

[Arek the Absolute]

Makes sense as to why it actually looks really good.

[JackKieser]

I don't understand how that footage looks "good". I think Sega is making a big mistake here, because it may look pretty, but it doesn't seem like it will feel like classic Sonic: the momentum is all wrong. There were clearly times when Sonic shouldn't have jumped as high or far as he did, or shouldn't have gotten up a particular incline, but did. If Sega makes the mistake of having the game run like it's "Push Right to Win" or something, this game will look good, but play like garbage.

Seriously. Go back to sprites and 2D if you have to. Just get the fucking physics engine right.

[zircon]

Considering that video was leaked - read: unofficial - and not even close to release, why would you assume that's the final state of the game's physics? The advantage of working with 3D is that 3D engines have very moldable physics parameters. I'd be surprised if they messed it up considering they've done successful Sonic games in the past.

[JackKieser]

Considering that video was leaked - read: unofficial - and not even close to release, why would you assume that's the final state of the game's physics? The advantage of working with 3D is that 3D engines have very moldable physics parameters. I'd be surprised if they messed it up considering they've done successful Sonic games in the past.

Why? Because Sega has a habit of releasing garbage to the general public that isn't even worthy of the title "Alpha build" much less "final copy". The fact that they had a single playable build of the game with physics like that is reason enough for me to worry; any reasonable person who knew what they were doing with the franchise (and who put this game up on a pedastal like Sega has done so far) wouldn't have even let the artists work on the title screen before the physics were perfected.

Even taking into account my biased hyperbole, it seriously worries me that the build in that video ever existed at all. You say why assume those are the final physics?

Because I have 10 years of games that play the same way.

[Lunarfall]

I don't understand how that footage looks "good". I think Sega is making a big mistake here, because it may look pretty, but it doesn't seem like it will feel like classic Sonic: the momentum is all wrong. There were clearly times when Sonic shouldn't have jumped as high or far as he did, or shouldn't have gotten up a particular incline, but did. If Sega makes the mistake of having the game run like it's "Push Right to Win" or something, this game will look good, but play like garbage.

Seriously. Go back to sprites and 2D if you have to. Just get the fucking physics engine right.

honestly people like you should just forget the game was even announced

and lol at commenting on how the game will feel when you havent even fucking played it

[atmuh]

honestly people like you should just forget the game was even announced

and lol at commenting on how the game will feel when you havent even fucking played it

hes right though

it looks just like new super mario bros style physics which i CANT STAND

[Strike911]

I'm not saying Sonic 4 will be good or bad, I don't know...

... but changes in physics doesn't necessarily mean the game will be bad. I mean, look at the Smash Bros series. Same 2D style, but it changed drastically from each iteration (though admittedly, the change from Gamecube to Wii was subtle at best, not nearly as pronounced as the transition from N64 to Gamecube). The physics changed each time. I understand Sega has a proven track record, but the gameplay's control is all dependent on the level design. If it works it works, fact is, we just don't know if it will or not. There were subtle changes going from Sonic 1 to Sonic 2, but it worked. Who knows at this point until we play it?

It's true that Sonic looks a little more floaty than in older Sonic iterations... does that mean a bad Sonic game? I don't know. It maybe won't feel the same as Sonic 3, or S&K, but then again, its a new Sonic game being outsourced by Sega, who has consistently put out craptacular Sonic games. *shrugs* Could be decent. If I were going to judge the Sonic series before playing Sonic 4, I'd do it by looking at Sega's track record for what an acceptable Sonic release is, not leaked pre-release footage. Games change a lot.

It's all pretty up in the air at this point until we play it. Physics and gravity in modern game engines is like a single variable or two, fundamentally, so changing it wouldn't be difficult. That said, at this point in the game's development, physics settings are probably set in stone, since again, the overall level design for modern platformers DEPEND on gravity. Jump distances are all calculated and levels are designed accordingly. Messing around with gravity once levels look constructed is a slippery slope, because you don't know (without A LOT of testing) if the changes break something in the entire game. Gravity changes can be a delay inducing modification to decent sized games that rely on it heavily, again, a Sonic game that needs jumping would, unless they tweak jump acceleration, each spring's power, a lot of things have to be checked... which is also a possibility.

Not saying change is impossible, but it's highly unlikely at this point. If people don't like the floaty Sonic feel (or in this case, the look of the feel), then they probably already know they won't like Sonic 4's gameplay.

Easy as that.

The possibilities of change are just as likely as the possibilities of the game staying the same as it is, since we just don't know what the team working on the game wants to do or accomplish. We don't know if newer market research indicates that people like the floaty feel... it is in New Super Mario Bros after all. It's in a lot of 3D games that go 2D. Maybe it doesn't feel right to the developers without it?

... I have no opinion of this game right now, myself (outside of missing the classic red blurred feet running animation). Yeah, the video footage looked like it had some bugs, but it was pre-release footage. It wasn't meant to be analyzed by hardcore fans this early in the ballgame. It'll have bugs until the game is ready for release. Is the floaty feeling a bug? Don't know. Running animation final? Don't know. Hell, we don't know if the snazzy title screen is final. None of us do. Yeah, the game looks a little different, but maybe that's what a modern Sonic game needs to sell... it's been a really long time since an old school Sonic game was released by Sega, and the market is different. Fact is, all us old school, hardcore Sonic fans are few and far between in the big scheme of things. Most people will buy a Sonic game because they played Sonic as a kid and want modernized neo-nostalgia. They won't be analyzing things like physics, drop speeds, and stuff because the game is being billed as a 2D Sonic in 3D. Will it feel the same? I don't know, probably not exactly. Will it be a good game? Again, I don't know. Let's not judge a book by it's early, leaked, unfinished second and third paragraphs... or snazzy cover.

I don't have much hope for Sega's acceptable Sonic releases, so I'm taking a "wait and see" approach for the release. If it ends up being classic goodness I'll get it, but for me, all the previous Sonic history makes me hesitant to lay down any cash on a game that just has such a bad and consistently awful track record WITHOUT first playing a demo, or hearing glowing reviews everywhere. I think putting Sonic back in his 2D roots is a good decision on Sega's part but the game needs a lot more than a perspective change to get me to buy it at this point.

I need proof from Sega...

... I still have Sonic Shuffle taste in my mouth, that's why.

[Bleck]

I think commenting on how a game 'feels' by looking at a video is kind of the most retarded thing you can do

[Red Shadow]

oh man let me tell you how it FEELS

[Geoffrey Taucer]

Considering that video was leaked - read: unofficial - and not even close to release, why would you assume that's the final state of the game's physics? The advantage of working with 3D is that 3D engines have very moldable physics parameters. I'd be surprised if they messed it up considering they've done successful Sonic games in the past.

But there appears to already be some pretty extensively finished level design, and in a sonic game, level design is (or should be) heavily built around the physics of the game.

Nevertheless, this game looks like it will, at the very least, be worth a try.

[Meteo Xavier]

Even taking into account my biased hyperbole, it seriously worries me that the build in that video ever existed at all. You say why assume those are the final physics?

Because I have 10 years of games that play the same way.

Dude, calm down. It's a videogame.

Wait for the official releases before you start forming ideas and concerns. Wait until you play the game before you condemn it. You might be surprised - some of my favorite games are ones people hate (Ghoul Patrol for example).

I have to wonder how much of a game's failure is based on community naysaying instead of actually sitting down and playing through it.

[Bleck]

any reasonable person who knew what they were doing with the franchise (and who put this game up on a pedastal like Sega has done so far) wouldn't have even let the artists work on the title screen before the physics were perfected.

clearly jackkieser has experience making videogames

[Geoffrey Taucer]

I'm with JK on this one; the physics should be ironed out before level design is finished (or even seriously started), so that the levels can be designed to suit the physics.

A lot of the SNES games did this really well, and Mario World jumps to mind as a game that was particularly meticulous about this.

This is (or should be) even more crucial in a game like sonic, which relies so much more heavily on the ins and outs of the game's physics for things like loops, quarter pipes, and so on.

It could still be a decent game, but for a game like this to live up to it's full potential, it seems to me that the physics should be perfected before the level design gets too far along, but what I've seen so far suggests that this isn't necessarily the case.

As I've said, I'll still give the game a chance when it comes out, but this video has not made me any more optimistic.

[Bleck]

I'm with JK on this one; the physics should be ironed out before level design is finished (or even seriously started), so that the levels can be designed to suit the physics.

yeah because it'll be great to have a physics engine with NO LEVELS TO TEST IT ON