VGM Rap (or vulgar rap-hate) thread (split from MM4 'Get a Weapon Weapon' reviews)

[lazygecko]

I hate modern rap. I couldn't care less about the lyrical content though, what I am concerned about is how the production quality has taken such a ridiculous nosedive. When you hear stuff from the early 90's that is not only creatively, but also technically superior to what's coming out 20 years later, then something is really wrong.

[The Vagrance]

...what I AM surprised about is the general "fuck off" attitude exhibited by this thread. It'd be one thing if the general attitude was "fuck off to your own thread in gen. disc., where you can then bring up discussion about the state of rap / hip-hop music as it pertains to present day socio-political roles", but that's not what we're getting here.

I actually read a post that said "you won't change anyone's minds". That's a HORRIBLE MINDSET for a discussion forum.

Pretty much. So what if someone expresses a viewpoint unpopular or just plain rude, its a discussion forum and just looking for the same viewpoint over and over again is kinda pointless.

That said I disagree with A-Ron over his sentiment about rap (and what seems to be a relatively common one here) about the quality of modern rap and how it pertains to cursing. Rap is, first and foremost, a musical expression that originated from poor mostly-black communities and in a lot of cases reflects that. Cursing is integral because its about people telling their stories, and when you live in an area strife with gang violence your story isn't going to be peaches and cream. I'm not necessarily saying cursing makes a song better or "more real", its just another method of expression and shouldn't be judges independently. For example, the song "Mind Playing Tricks on Me" (

) is full of curses but ultimately is about the paranoid feeling the rappers have and the cost of their death.

Also I'd argue modern rap is just as good, just as modern rock is just as good as the classics, problem is all musical genres have become more niche. No longer is there just "rock music" but now its "2nd Wave post-hardcore" and stuff like that, same with rap. For every good classic rapper there's now 3 in their place doing their thing, and the production now is as good as ever. Ski Beatz and 9th Wonder are on top of their game, the LA led experimental hip-hop scene is fantastic, there's still dudes like El-P coming out with crazy technically brilliant stuff as well as guys like Edan and DJ Shadow still doing this with a more old-school edge. As I've said I'm sure multiple times by now there is no better time to be a listener of music.

[Ramaniscence]

Look, guys.

Modern rap serves it's purpose. A very noble purpose, at that. When I'm out, grinding on some girl, I need something with a LOT of bass, because bass is holding the rhythm to the song, and if I'm as drunk as I should be then I'm gonna need all the help I can get.. I need something that's repetitive as SHIT, because what that girl is fucking swinging her hips, I'm pretty out of shape, and it's hurting my legs enough just to keep up with her between songs, if every song was constantly changing I'd just about die. I need something that's telling me about fornicating, getting drunk, possibly even getting crunk, because damnit I'm half-way to drunk town and I'm feeling good. I want something that's going to talk about making love to a girl in an aggressive manner, ie "like a slut/hoe", because that kind of thing is enjoyable from time to time, for both parties. It's not that I think she's truly promiscuous, but it's often fun for both partners to act as if they are. I ESPECIALLY need something that drops a good few F-bombs, because that shit gets me HYPE as FUCK. (but not so many that it loses novelty...unless it's for a novel purpose. See: Cee-Lo)

If I go to a club this weekend, and I can hear deep lyrical content, and have a complex, detailed song, I'm going to be pissed. I don't want to hear your deep lyrics. I don't want to hear a damn thing over the bass and hats unless it's a orchestra hit or a fucking FUCK.

When I come home, I'll listen to Aesop Rock or Blackalicious or Atmosphere or OutKast something I care about, but damnit when I'm out all I want to fucking hear his Lil' Jon, Trick Daddy, Three 6 Mafia, Lady Gaga, and MAYBE some Journey at the very end of the night when my knees are already swollen.

Definitely not Drake though, I can't take that guy seriously after watching Degrassi for so long.

[Benjamin Briggs]

Anyway I like vulgar rap because I hate rap, and hearing swear words screamed at me ala lil' jon makes me laugh and realize just how much I hate it as a genre in the first place.

NOOOOOOO!!!!! but I wwwwuvv'd youuuuuu

fine. I'll fight fire with water here and kindly FORCIBLY PERSUADE you to listen to These Songs On This Album By These Guys

I'm loosing respect for this community because of that and I'm loosing respect for hip-hop.

"being better than everyone else" and "consistently making basic spelling errors" are pretty much mutually exclusive

jesus ass-fucking christ

[Bahamut]

Wow. I can't believe what I just started. Let me just sit back and enjoy the show, because you guys obviously just don't give a **** about ANYTHING I'm getting at.

What is being trashed is the attitude, not necessarily the opinion. The attitude, quite bluntly, is fucked up. I don't think you even understand why it's messed up either.

What you're doing is slamming a person/people for making an artistic decision to use vulgar lyrics & a certain sound design. And then going about trying to flood threads not even relevant to it because of a simple disagreement over that.

I'm willing to bet some of us who have posted don't even necessarily disagree with some of the sentiment you're expressing, me included (in fact, my roommate and I were talking about this just last night after hearing some songs on the radio & being disgusted at them).

This doesn't mean we're going to go out of our way to bother others who enjoy that music or anything like that. It's about tact & knowing what social boundaries in any given situation are there.

Another example is if I hated what someone did to something (let's say musically for posterity), and then died. I'm not going to use the opportunity to spout a ton of hate over what he/she did.

There are some things more important than art/entertainment out there to me, and I hope so to you as well.

[zykO]

and beyond that, even, you're trolling the crap out of the crakaz which is immature at best. you make it a point to bring up how irrelevant and awful they are every moment you get.

i know cam and flik personally and knowing them is precisely the reason why the crakaz is so frickin' funny. it's completely awesome. i wish i had an inkling of the sense of humor that flows between those guys. are they going to spit anyone under the table? no. but are they trying to?

i feel where you're coming from, aaron, and like we've been over this so many times before... there are different styles of hip hop. you and i have agreed before that we both prefer the ol skool and i'd take KRS ONE over any of these suckaz today in a heartbeat. it's great that you aspire to spread a better message with your music in a genre that is predominantly populated with garbage but what are you doing about it??????????

NOTHING. NOTHING OUTSIDE OF WAH WAHW WAH WAH WAH WAH.

modern rap may be vulgar and barbaric and crude and primitive or whatever else you want to attribute to it but the fact remains, it still has far more BALLS than you do and that is a significant trait. you know what makes a great emcee? BALLS. BALLS TO SAY WHAT YOU MEAN and TO SAY IT ON A BEAT. quit spamming forums with your "omg they cuss" bullshit and do it on a track. i've even suggested this to you before several times over the last SEVERAL years and i've yet to see you do it.

the solution is very simple:

STEP A: Find an awesome source from an awesome game and make a killer beat from it (i know you know how to do this)

STEP B: Write awesome lyrics about how profoundly ignorant rhymeskill has become and how profanity cheapens the artform (i know you know how to do this)

STEP C: Do it LIVE

STEP D: Submit to OCR and show us why we could be all wrong about this whole thing. (i'm sure you still remember how to do this)

it's really very simple. if you have a vision, express it. what you're doing is just something else entirely.

[Dafydd]

What fascinates me most about this is seeing a disagreement like this, in this day and age, between site staff and a person who's been around for as long as A-Ron has. Clearly, this issue is really big to him, and I still have no idea what it's about. Can someone point me to examples of music that A-Ron likes so I can compare it to this mix and understand what his problem is? I can't even find profanity in these lyrics. Where are they?

[Liontamer]

Since I started this first response and threadsplit, I wanna clarify that we can argue about rap itself forever. We're a music community, so that's fine. Aaron or anyone else can say that, and he shouldn't be encouraged NOT to say that.

It's personally needling Joe Cam and the Crackaz at every turn that's not cool. I remember years ago the diss track "<3 Jesus" I played on VG Frequency, so their fighting actually goes way back. But Aaron, you still can't come here and keep jabbing Joe Cam when the discussion somehow involves rap. He obviously couldn't do the same to you.

I also don't mind about the review thread being clogged up with non-sequitur discussion on the current state of rap; that's why the mods can split threads, it took me a couple seconds to do and move over to Community discussion where it belongs, and it's not a big deal.

What fascinates me most about this is seeing a disagreement like this, in this day and age, between site staff and a person who's been around for as long as A-Ron has. Clearly, this issue is really big to him, and I still have no idea what it's about. Can someone point me to examples of music that A-Ron likes so I can compare it to this mix and understand what his problem is? I can't even find profanity in these lyrics. Where are they?

He's saying Joe Cam should take a cue from the clean lyrics of the MM4 mix.

[DiggiDis]

....... WAH WAHW WAH WAH WAH WAH.

I just got this great idea ... What if you put the sound you just made into an effect !!!!! And and and like put it on top of your guitar !!!!!!! Wouldn't that be amazing ?!?!

[Skrypnyk]

guys

Guys!

GUYS!!!

I DISAGREE!!!!!

>>>>>>>>>>>>=(

[DiggiDis]

Ok . I've done some thinking Aron.

It's time you discover the world of George Carlin.

Please check some stuff on youtube from him.

It'll be a good experience. I promise.

[Dhsu]

I just got this great idea ... What if you put the sound you just made into an effect !!!!! And and and like put it on top of your guitar !!!!!!! Wouldn't that be amazing ?!?!

Never stop being awesome, Frankie.

[JackKieser]

Ok . I've done some thinking Aron.

It's time you discover the world of George Carlin.

Please check some stuff on youtube from him.

It'll be a good experience. I promise.

Yes... but George Carlin has stuff to say. I seriously doubt that "'til the sweat drops down my balls, 'til all these bitches crawl" is a roundabout treatise on the socio-religious climate of the United States the same way some of Carlin's more vulgar work is.

This argument that vulgar rap is ok because a few people have something to say with it is bogus. Someone in west LA might have something to say, but I seriously doubt that 'Lil Jon and the Eastside Boys or 50 Cent have something to say about the plight of black Americans... you know, since they are both rich and successful.

[DCT]

Have I mentioned how much I LOVE threads like these?

[D-Lux]

Is anyone else going as nostalgia crazy as I am by reading this thread? Damn.

A-Ron, for a guy who consistently preaches to take the high road above foul language and immoral subject matter, you throw out a staggering amount of nonconstructive, personal insults (aimed at certain people already mentioned). Fight the good fight if that's your thing, but it's all for naught with the haterade you bring with it.

[The Vagrance]

Yes... but George Carlin has stuff to say. I seriously doubt that "'til the sweat drops down my balls, 'til all these bitches crawl" is a roundabout treatise on the socio-religious climate of the United States the same way some of Carlin's more vulgar work is.

This argument that vulgar rap is ok because a few people have something to say with it is bogus. Someone in west LA might have something to say, but I seriously doubt that 'Lil Jon and the Eastside Boys or 50 Cent have something to say about the plight of black Americans... you know, since they are both rich and successful.

Except they were both once poor and unsuccessful. Also, your argument is like saying just because pornography exists doesn't mean filmmakers shouldn't be allowed/should be discouraged from using nudity in their works to an artistic effect. Plus your example is Lil' Jon and 50 Cent, the least you could do is call out Lil Wayne or Flo Rida or someone current (Sidenote: When the fuck did Nelly make a comeback?).

Its weird because I've totally been in your shoes thinking that rap was an "inferior" music genre and that the cursing was unnecessary and vulgar (I'm a white kid from the suburbs so its not that much of a stretch) but that's because it takes a whole 'nother mindset to get into Hip-Hop music. Listen to it with an open mind and check out some underground artists first (like the aforementioned Aesop Rock and Atmosphere, or a couple of my favs Count Bass D and Busdriver), you might find yourself surprised.

[JackKieser]

Except they were both once poor and unsuccessful.

Irrelevant. Unless the lyrics are specifically referencing those rappers' pasts or events that happened personally to them, they are no longer qualified to comment on what its like to be poor; even if they once were, they no longer are. They are no more qualified than a US Senator pulling over 200k a year is when commenting on "the American people". After a certain point of being out of the loop, you lose the perspective necessary to comment on topics like that.

Also, your argument is like saying just because pornography exists doesn't mean filmmakers shouldn't be allowed/should be discouraged from using nudity in their works to an artistic effect.

Not at all. You have it exactly in reverse. Just because filmmakers can use nudity to comment on society in an artistic way, that doesn't mean porn is art. Well, it's art in the sense that its expression and that some see the sex act as beautiful, but it's not a commentary. Same thing here. Just because some inner city kid is gifted enough to use profanity in a rap song to make a witty commentary on the poor black condition, that doesn't mean that every time a rapper uses the word "fuck" in a song, he's making an equally witty and insightful commentary.

Plus your example is Lil' Jon and 50 Cent, the least you could do is call out Lil Wayne or Flo Rida or someone current (Sidenote: When the fuck did Nelly make a comeback?).

I chose them because I know no other rappers. Also, because the specific rapper is irrelevant to the argument.

Its weird because I've totally been in your shoes thinking that rap was an "inferior" music genre and that the cursing was unnecessary and vulgar (I'm a white kid from the suburbs so its not that much of a stretch) but that's because it takes a whole 'nother mindset to get into Hip-Hop music. Listen to it with an open mind and check out some underground artists first (like the aforementioned Aesop Rock and Atmosphere, or a couple of my favs Count Bass D and Busdriver), you might find yourself surprised.

Woah, woah, woah. Don't go assuming stuff there. I like rap just as much as the next guy. I see its place, its use, and its purpose, especially as it relates to my musical tastes and preferences. I appreciate it for what it is. That does not mean that I agree with the SOCIAL CLIMATE surrounding the genre, nor does it mean that I am willing to let rap ARTISTS conduct themselves in ways that I can clearly demonstrate are socially detrimental. I am willing to separate artist from song (MJ might have raped kids, but he still had an amazing voice, for instance)... but in the case of modern rap, that becomes impossible, because both the artist AND song are socially detrimental (I don't care what freedom of speech argument you use; human rights violations should never be protected, and a lot of current rap speaks directly of what I view as human rights violations, as well as rampant drug use and out-and-out crime).

[ella guro]

This whole thing is totally silly. This is like the people who complained about vocals being in remixes. It's the silliest thing in the world. I thought that everclear hangover mix was totally dumb, but that had nothing to do with the swearing.

This is directed at A Ron: If you're going to personally crusade against all vulgar rap (something that is completely ubiquitous in today's culture), fine. But randomly singling out a random artist on OCR, of all places, seems quite strange. There are many different kinds of rap out there. Some people are inevitably going to do things that you don't like. I'm not part of the "if you don't have anything nice to say, don't say it" school, but I think you at least have to know how to express your opinion in an eloquent manner and then concentrate your energies on something positive. Arbitrarily crusading against something you don't like (and on OCR, where there's only a few rap songs?) and then getting a persecution complex about it just makes things 100 times worse. It makes it into everyone vs. you, which is what this thread is now, and I hate this kind of crap.

[Scrobble]

I'm so making this.

DO IT.

and let me hear it after <3

[The Vagrance]

Not at all. You have it exactly in reverse. Just because filmmakers can use nudity to comment on society in an artistic way, that doesn't mean porn is art. Well, it's art in the sense that its expression and that some see the sex act as beautiful, but it's not a commentary. Same thing here. Just because some inner city kid is gifted enough to use profanity in a rap song to make a witty commentary on the poor black condition, that doesn't mean that every time a rapper uses the word "fuck" in a song, he's making an equally witty and insightful commentary.

That's the thing though, is that art doesn't have to necessarily make a commentary. FFS how many of the remixes on this site make a commentary? The problem with using this definition is there becomes no clear line as to what is and isn't "art", and the only thing separating the two is "meaning" which is flimsy and completely up to the listener. I can understand if someone thinks that cursing hurts the meaning of the songs, but the existence of it (even without it being there for the purpose of commentary) doesn't make the song any less "art" than the next song because at that point you're hitting a completely subjective definition. Is cursing always necessary? No, but its a part of the culture and what people want to hear.

[JackKieser]

Here's some food for thought:

Two years ago, I took a major world religions class where the firest assignment was to create a definition for the word "religion" as an inclusive descriptive noun (an example is "sports"; it's a descriptive noun that includes other nouns like football, football (Europe), hockey, tennis, etc.). The assignment ended up being a trick question. Why? Because the only requirement for something to be a religion is that someone believes in it. It can be the most ridiculous and non-religious thing in the world (our professor's example was "Cowboy-ism": a fanatic profession of love for the Dallas Cowboys). This makes the usage of the word "religion" as an inclusive descriptive noun meaningless, because it could theoretically include everything in known existence.

Now, how does this apply? Easy. The definition of "art" you're using is an inclusive descriptive noun. It's a meaningless term, since the only requirement for something to be art is that it has to be SAID that it's art.

Practically, the law has to deal with religions, does it not? After all, we have a Constitutional protection ensuring we have full freedom of religion, don't we? Actually, no, we don't. Religions that use animals as sacrifice or religions that involve snake handling are banned in the US for animal cruelty and high risk of personal injury, respectively. The government has stepped into the realm of Constitutionally protected religions to make sure that the public isn't doing something stupid and hurting themselves.

They've done that with art, too. After all, that's what the WHOLE porn industry has to deal with. Sure, you're "artistic", but it doesn't have to be proven with much to know that almost all porn (if not all of it) is just for sexual gratification. It poses light mental health concerns (people who watch above average levels of porn have mistaken beliefs about sexual deviancy rates, for instance; they believe that certain sex acts are more common that is actually the case) in adults, and potential major health concerns in children under the age of 13,and so this "artform" is restricted by law. Free speech is reined in because people don't know how to control themselves and end up hurting themselves in the process.

There is, I think, plenty of precedent that would allow one to propose that a form of music that is sexist, sadist, misogynistic, ultra-violent, and filled with murder, drugs, rape, and other terrible social influences should be restricted, or at very least regulated, to make sure it's not so socially damaging. Like I said earlier, the correlations between heavy gangster rap and crime, drug, and mortality rates are there. Assuming the heavy research supports it, I'd be totally on board for saying that "art" should still have to be responsible for the consequences of its effect on society the same way that porn is.

And if it's not being responsibly created, the artists should have to deal with the consequences by being censored.

[zykO]

strangely enough, i find that both of you correct. and therein lies the problem.

art for art's sake will always be a contentious issue when discussed on the fringes. vulgarity is often very difficult to ascertain. take fine art for example. not all people view nudity in art work as tasteful even when not explicitly sexual or smutty. my father was a great fine artist (and a student of realism) and his work often made people uncomfortable because of how incredibly realistic his nudes were even though they were not in compromising poses and he was the furthest thing from a perverted man; in fact he was extremely pious and religious and viewed his art as a tribute to the human form and the glory of god's creation (much like his hero and inspiration, michaelangelo). yet, the reality here is that the standard on what is and isn't considered vulgarity is never easy to define and never was for his entire career.

because of that, the boundary on vulgarity is always pushed... and even excessively. there are people who are repulsed by slipknot or GWAR or marilyn manson... just the same as there are folks who cannot stomach eminem's language. however all of those artists are extremely talented (some more than others) and have made quite a living off of that very shock value because the boldness is an intrinsically evocative and luring human trait.

take eminem for example. he's the best at what he does. i challenge anyone to find an emcee that is as clever with his lyrics, today, as eminem. you may not like him and a lot of people don't because he's so incredibly abrasive and nuts but the man can rhyme in ways i didn't even know where possible. and yet he is probably more vulgar than any of the guys mentioned so far (50 cent, in all his desired BADASSNESS, is not nearly as intimidating an emcee as a single hair on an isolated testicle of eminem's). and even that assertion is still entirely subjective.

i think ultimately, this is one of those things that is better left alone even if we have the ability to investigate it, explore it and reason with it... and even if we have the freedom and willingness to debate it. EVEN if we feel we are obligated by our scientific and exploratory minds as human beings to get to the bottom of it and the only reason i say that is because it will never be resolved. the more we try to define the limits of what we can do as humans, the further we go to push those limits further away because as soon as we set that bar, somebody somewhere gets there, does it and pushes it further out and changes the whole game. and so we start again.

i don't think anybody could have predicted that language in popular music would have turned out the way it has. remember, elvis was vulgar in his day. he is a church mouse compared to some of the jackasses we have reigning the airwaves now.

============

as someone who has been mired in a debate on what can and can't or should and shouldn't be said in music, i can assure you of one thing; honesty will always be the breaking point in the discussion.

i ran into this issue with niggaz 4 life but was far too young and immature to truly explain the phenomenon properly. whereas there could be issue with the specific words that an artist chooses (and a serious artist doesn't do much accidentally), it should be the artist's prerogative to be honest. we lose respect for people and trust in them when they deceive us in any facet of life... interpersonal relationships, business relations, politics and likewise in our media and art. there's nothing i abhor more than a dishonest emcee (and even i've been dishonest before... not often but at times lol).

dishonesty in art, at least for me, is very easy to spot and is ultimately the deal breaker. when people force things for whatever reason they may have done it, it has an unmistakable thud. genuine expression rings loud and clear. maybe i have supernatural hearing but that is unlikely.

[EC2151]

Insane Clown Posse for life.

[CC Ricers]

Frequent cussing is a sign of lazy lyrics but if the lyrics aren't intended to be very meaningful or clever, then there's no problem. Not everyone is trying to be a lyrical genius for hip hop. Oftentimes the music just serves a utilitarian purpose, to make people dance and move their ass.

Believe it or not, the majority of people are not music aficionados like the most of us. For most people, music is just an excuse to pass time quickly and make more bonding experiences with friends. They are there for drinking moments, dancing moments, or just general moments to make you feel awesome for some reason (mostly where image plays a bigger role than the actual music). It is why some drunken idiots request hip hop or pop to the DJ on a trance night. Artistic integrity and complexity takes a backseat to those things.

Like vagrance says, art shouldn't need a commentary...it can just be there to make you say "ooh, ahh" and form your own thoughts that the artist had no specifics on.

[ZealPath]

Coincidentally, a friend of mine recently directed me to this video , which is essentially having some fun with vulgar lyrics, in this case, from Dr. Dre's "Bitches Ain't Shit." This was nothing but funny to me, but this thread has me wondering how many people out there can't laugh at this and would be offended by it.

I've always enjoyed hiphop and went through a phase in high school where it was pretty much all I wanted to listen to, now I only listen to it occasionally really but I've certainly enjoyed all of the hiphop mixes that have come out of OCR, whether they be like this more recent MM4 mix, a Rhymes with Elixir, or even an Everclear Hangover.