This just bugs me

[wazkatango]

I don't expect anyone to agree with me on this, but I'm posting here because it'll make me feel better. This has been bugging me for as long as I've heard remixes from this site, and I've lost sleep trying to figure out exactly why.

A good chunk of remixes on OC Remix aren't remixes at all. I say this because the remixes are so far disconnected from the original composition that it fails to be recognizable. Often, it seems that all it takes to call a song a 'remix' is the qualification that it shares at least a few notes similar to the original song. That's all. It doesn't even need to be the same tempo, or have the same chord progressions, etc.

There's nothing wrong with any of that, mind you. I'm all for creativity. If you want to make a country - funk - rap of the Super Mario Bros overworld theme, be my guest. If you want to make a speedy techno remix of some song from Perfect Dark, by all means, do it. However, at least try to keep some semblance of the original song in there somewhere.

Again, don't get me wrong, the remixes are technically very well made. They sound very nice the vast majority of the time, but they fail so hard technically at actually being a remix. It's no wonder OC Remix is so popular, the uneducated masses don't honestly care if it's really a remix or not, as long as it sounds great. If I was being cynical, I would say that the judges/staff at OC Remix know this already, and don't care because it's popular, and because it's popular, they make more money from t-shirts, software, hardware, advertising, etc. I don't really believe that (much), but my argument still stands. Once again, the songs aren't bad, they just fail at being a remix.

I don't want anyone posting links to songs on OC Remix that don't do what I'm talking about here. For an example of what I'm talking about,

.

I dare everyone on here to logically prove me wrong. No rationalizing because you like OC Remix or its remixes.

I'm so sure I'm right about this one, I'll fight it into the ground if I have to.

[DarkeSword]

You're wrong about everything.

[Soul Splint]

Your logic would be correct given that OCR is doing remixes, except that the goal is to do ReMixes, a term coined by DJP. This term encompasses everything you said that makes OCR submissions not suitable to be placed under the label 'remix'.

[BardicKnowledge]

First, the site defines remix differently than the definition you use. That is logical and very simple.

Second, the fact that you don't appreciate the musical transformations going on is representative of a lack of musical education everywhere. Just because the melody is masked / tweaked / whatever "change" word you want here doesn't mean that the piece is not a rendition of the original. Compare the Bach chorale on

to the original tune -- in the Bach, the melody is certainly there, but it is just one part of a great whole (and you'll note that the melody is not the same rhythm or original key, either).

I'm not saying Sephfire is the next JS Bach (though he is pretty awesome -- check out his Extra Credits podcast if you haven't), but his mix that you linked and the chorale both transform an original work to create something more personally relevant to them as artists, and that's exactly the sort of thing the site should be pushing.

Off topic: The site needs more Baroque counterpoint -- any takers?

[Overflow]

I know what the OP is getting at. A lot of Children of the Monkey Machine's remixes don't sound like much in particular, but that Mario Paint song actually does sound quite a bit like the original.

I actually really like this mix, but I cannot hear ANYTHING from the original in it.

[zircon]

1. In the entire history of OCR, nobody on the staff has earned even a single cent of profit. ALL of the site's revenue has always been invested back into the site, either through hosting, printing more t-shirts, albums, and so on. Even djpretzel, who has been running this place for 11 years now, earns no money from it. So that accusation is absolutely 100% off-base, and kind of hilarious.

2. If anything, "the uneducated masses" agree with you. We've seen this thread pop up many times on this forum and elsewhere, such as YouTube comments, NeoGAF and other websites. You have the situation totally reversed. If we wanted to be more popular, we wouldn't allow liberal mixes and would focus on covers and uninterpretive arrangements.

3. We reject ReMixes all the time that are too liberal compared with the source. The mix you pointed out ("Intense Color") is easily recognizable as being from Mario Paint, but we've had ones submitted where less than 40% had anything to do with game music. In fact, we've been hated on for this too. As it says in our standards, the source must be dominant. That means you can't do a rock remix where 3/4 of the piece is just you noodling or soloing.

4. This site is not about "remixes" in the traditional sense. It has ALWAYS been about arrangements, also called "ReMixes" (note the difference.) The Internet is full of places where you can go and hear guitarists playing straight covers of Super Mario Bros. We have NO problem with that and think that music is great too. But the point of this site is to pay tribute to the original music by doing something new and interpretive (but while still remaining heavily connected.) If you want to post or find very coverish music, YouTube is filled with it, so there's no shortage.

[noTuX]

And it made me smile...

[prophetik music]

as both a classically trained musician and someone who has butted heads numerous times with the panel over what constitutes a remix and what doesn't - mine tend to be farther away from the original than what the judges usually want - i can say that everything you have posted is complete bunk, OP. it's particularly funny that you chose Intense Color, which is probably one of the best examples of being creative with your arrangement without losing touch with the original track that i've ever heard.

i'm curious your opinion on a track like Dragon Song or the new drumultima/harmony collab.

of course, 99% of the time people who post stuff like this never ever come back and actually continue the conversation after making wild accusations like you did, so it's a moot point anyways

[Malaki-LEGEND.sys]

Your logic would be correct given that OCR is doing remixes, except that the goal is to do ReMixes, a term coined by DJP.

BOOM.

Headshot.

[DragonAvenger]

Whoo, this will be fun.

I don't expect anyone to agree with me on this, but I'm posting here because it'll make me feel better. This has been bugging me for as long as I've heard remixes from this site, and I've lost sleep trying to figure out exactly why.

A good chunk of remixes on OC Remix aren't remixes at all. I say this because the remixes are so far disconnected from the original composition that it fails to be recognizable. Often, it seems that all it takes to call a song a 'remix' is the qualification that it shares at least a few notes similar to the original song. That's all. It doesn't even need to be the same tempo, or have the same chord progressions, etc.

I will give you a small amount of agreement here. OC ReMixes aren't remixes. They are ReMixes. There is a difference.

The word "ReMix" was chosen but is not necessarily appropriate, as the tracks here are more re-arrangements than remixes. (Think of this as the difference between a "remix" and a "ReMix.")

OCR has standards that vary from the typical norm, and we look for a specific niche of arrangement. It's not going to fit your average cover or remix, but that's not what we're going for. Plenty of that everywhere else.

There's nothing wrong with any of that, mind you. I'm all for creativity. If you want to make a country - funk - rap of the Super Mario Bros overworld theme, be my guest. If you want to make a speedy techno remix of some song from Perfect Dark, by all means, do it. However, at least try to keep some semblance of the original song in there somewhere.

Guess what? Every remix on the site does have some semblance of the original. Some of the mixes are easier to figure out than others, true. Not to spark flames here, but just because you don't hear it and don't agree with it doesn't mean it's not there.

Again, don't get me wrong, the remixes are technically very well made. They sound very nice the vast majority of the time, but they fail so hard technically at actually being a remix. It's no wonder OC Remix is so popular, the uneducated masses don't honestly care if it's really a remix or not, as long as it sounds great

Just going back to our standards and judging process, we look for a level of quality in production, so you're right, all the songs sound great!

If I was being cynical, I would say that the judges/staff at OC Remix know this already, and don't care because it's popular, and because it's popular, they make more money from t-shirts, software, hardware, advertising, etc. I don't really believe that (much), but my argument still stands. Once again, the songs aren't bad, they just fail at being a remix.

No judges, staff, or even DJP himself makes any money from this site. We work for free, to bring you awesome music. Any money made off of shirts/etc goes to keeping the site running.

I don't want anyone posting links to songs on OC Remix that don't do what I'm talking about here. For an example of what I'm talking about,

.

LOVE that song! Also, I totally hear Mario Paint throughout that; it's instantly recognizable to me. And it's a damn cool arrangement.

I dare everyone on here to logically prove me wrong. No rationalizing because you like OC Remix or its remixes.

I'm so sure I'm right about this one, I'll fight it into the ground if I have to.

Here's the thing; you're asking people to prove something that is somewhat subjective based on how people listen to things, their musical aptitude, and their ability to study music. Not everyone is going to come to the same conclusion, or be able to hear the connections between a source and a ReMix as well as others. In general, you can study a mix vs. a source and do a breakdown of what part is where in the mix, how they tie together, etc. You may or may not hear what someone points out to you. You may or may not agree between the connections. That's fine, because everyone is different. However, when you come to a board like this and claim that you are the absolute authority in knowledge of the subject, you're going to instigate flame wars that honestly are not worth the time or effort. I'd find it way better if you took the time to look at a breakdown of a mix and see the connections yourself, or disagree with them. Maybe write a thoughtful review of the mix on how it did or didn't work. Ask others to point out parts you might have missed.

People who submit to OCR take the sources and work to put them in a new light and arrange them in a way that is different from your run-of-the-mill cover or remix (not to say that there aren't awesome and original covers and mixes, I assure you there are plenty!). We do things differently here, so enjoy this little niche of the video game arrangement community for what it is, not what it isn't, IMO.

[DarkeSword]

Deia sums it up best.

This thread just bugs me. We're done!

[Liontamer]

Adding to this, even though DragonAvenger covered it well. You're entitled to your opinion, but that doesn't make it right.

It's no wonder OC Remix is so popular, the uneducated masses don't honestly care if it's really a remix or not, as long as it sounds great.

You'd be absolutely right that some segment of fans behave that way. That's exactly why we don't use public opinion to decide what's posted on the site. A lot of people wouldn't care if the source tunes were used most of the time, as long as some reference was there or the music sounded cool. But that's not how we, the staff, evaluate submissions.

Again, don't get me wrong, the remixes are technically very well made. They sound very nice the vast majority of the time, but they fail so hard technically at actually being a remix. It's no wonder OC Remix is so popular, the uneducated masses don't honestly care if it's really a remix or not, as long as it sounds great. If I was being cynical, I would say that the judges/staff at OC Remix know this already, and don't care because it's popular, and because it's popular, they make more money from t-shirts, software, hardware, advertising, etc. I don't really believe that (much), but my argument still stands. Once again, the songs aren't bad, they just fail at being a remix.

I don't want anyone posting links to songs on OC Remix that don't do what I'm talking about here. For an example of what I'm talking about,

.

I dare everyone on here to logically prove me wrong. No rationalizing because you like OC Remix or its remixes.

I'm so sure I'm right about this one, I'll fight it into the ground if I have to.

"Intense Color" uses the source tune from :00-:12, :15.5-:30, :44-1:28, 1:42-1:56, 2:15-3:31, 3:39-3:55, 3:56-4:09, i.e. most of the time. It's one thing to complain about the mood being different, there's no doubt. But don't say the source tune isn't even there. You might as well claim the sun isn't hot.

I know what the OP is getting at. A lot of Children of the Monkey Machine's remixes don't sound like much in particular, but that Mario Paint song actually does sound quite a bit like the original.

I actually really like this mix, but I cannot hear ANYTHING from the original in it.

For CotMM, the source tunes are there, he uses those sources extensively. I get what you mean, Overflow, but that's not to say the themes aren't being used.

PaRappa the Rapper 'Cookin' with Fire' by Navi was a track where I initially had the same reaction as you. But we don't JUST look for the main melody or the most obvious parts of the sources to be used [despite some people claiming that's all we do ], and we take the time to look deeper.

In Navi's case, he arranged material from the sax line of Cheap Cheap and had his own original lyrics on top of that. So a lot of people would be looking for Navi's rapping to resemble the rapping from Cheap Cheap, when that's not how the source tune was used. The bassline and old-timey piano in Navi's mix are playing slowed down notes from the sax line in Cheap Cheap.

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Wikipedia's entry on "Arrangement" also articulates what the community here does. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arrangement - We don't do "remixes." OC ReMixes are arrangements, even though the arrangements here are casually referred to as "remixes" because of the site's name.

Arranging "involves adding compositional techniques, such as new thematic material for introductions, transitions, or modulations, and endings...Arranging is the art of giving an existing melody musical variety. [...] As well as different instruments, the tempo, time signature and key signature may be altered, sometimes drastically so."

Your beef is with "drastically altered" arrangements, and that's fine, but they're valid arrangements just the same even if you can't tell how the themes are used. As I said on YouTube, the point isn't necessarily to have the arrangement sound exactly like the original song. If you just want it to sound like the original song, listen to the original song.

If your nostalgia kick is only satisfied by close arrangements, you'll still find a lot of enjoyable OC ReMixes, but close arrangements aren't the only thing the community does. Just like many official Japanese VGM arrange albums, we have a lot of very interpretive arrangements as well.

We don't post music where the source tunes are barely used, that would be stupid and would undermine the whole point of the site. You can't highlight VGM as an art form if you're not even using the actual themes.

EDIT: If we wanted to make money (which none of us ever have), we'd sell the music regardless of licensing.