Videogames and Sexism

[Malaki-LEGEND.sys]

I was asking all the right questions regarding a specific point that was made earlier in the thread, which was slated as a big reason as to why girls are opposed to gaming. My evidence thus far says no. You're definitely right however that games not being designed with women in mind is a factor. It WAS one of the additional responses I got after all. Those responses weren't to any question I made though, so I could(and probably should) create several more about it.

I think however that Zircon hit the nail in the head earlier that women just need to get more involved in the industry, and bit by bit that is happening. I do think however using a blanket statement like "women aren't into game design because sexism" is pretty naive though.

[Tensei]

Nobody ever said anything like that so that's pretty much a strawman argument.

If you really want to condense that particular point down to a single sentence, it would be something like "The reasons behind the fact that the amount of men vs. women who enjoy videogames is disproportionate can probably be traced back to sexism"

Also, while I do agree with the sentiment that there should be more women in the industry, I do not like the implication that that's the only way you could solve sexism. Women are just as capable of being sexist, and they're equally likely to be ignorant to that kind of stuff. I have no doubt that there are plenty of female artists who don't bat an eye at constantly having to design female characters on high heels with their boobs hanging out, or if they do, they simply accept it as something that's 'part of the job'.

[Cash]

Please stop arguing semantics.

I'm not arguing semantics, you misunderstood the point of that post.

I didn't say they will never say it's because of sexism, I said none of them have said it. See the difference there?

The only valid evidence in this case would be to literally interview every single woman in the world and prove that none of them are bothered by sexism in videogames.

That's not how statistics work. You can't interview every woman in the world, that's not practical. Statistics use a certain sample size to make a prediction about a population, the bigger the sample the better. If we had to ask every single person in a country or the world whenever we want valid evidence, statistics would be meaningless.

EDIT: Yes, this doesn't really have much to do with the thread, but without evidence of some kind, the entire thread is just speculation. With each side repeating their viewpoints, getting nowhere. I guess we're already at that point.

[Legion303]

I just showed you one. You should be able to draw your own conclusions based on the fact that there is still a disproportionate amount of male vs. female gamers.

A blind assertion backed by zero data doesn't really constitute a "study."

[Tensei]

A blind assertion backed by zero data doesn't really constitute a "study."

Reposting

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Women_and_video_games#Female_gamers_as_a_demographic

Stop arguing this stuff though because it's at best tangentially related and we've pretty much exhausted this particular subtopic in the last few pages.

[Legion303]

Reposting

Repost all you like. It's still not a study. Hell, it doesn't even attempt to draw conclusions.

Stop arguing this stuff though because it's at best tangentially related and we've pretty much exhausted this particular subtopic in the last few pages.

No, no, you wanted a discussion of the topic, and I'm discussing it. Unless you really meant "does sexism exist in games, and are games aimed primarily at male gamers?" In which case, yes. I guess we're done here.

On the other hand, if you want to know what should be done about it: stop buying the games and let the publishers know why. Until it's more profitable for them to remove the sexism than to leave it in place, you're just pissing in the ocean.

[Archaon]

No, no, you wanted a discussion of the topic, and I'm discussing it. Unless you really meant "does sexism exist in games, and are games aimed primarily at male gamers?" In which case, yes. I guess we're done here.

Well folks, pack it in. Legion303 has acknowledged that sexism exists in games. Mission accomplished!

[Bleck]

Repost all you like. It's still not a study.

the article links to the source, which is a study conducted the ESA

[Otakatt]

When it comes to the actual content in games, I rarely feel offended by it. At most I might roll my eyes a little when a girl's boobs are bigger than her head and her clothing defies all logic, but I understand that sex sells and blah de blah. If I like the gameplay I like the gameplay and I will play and be happy, even if my Death Knight is running around in a loincloth. I actually see guys complain about the sexism related content in games more than girls do. But I myself have never played a game and been like ZOMG SEXIST to the point it's been that offputting. Most times it's more amusing than not.

I find the attitude of a lot of guys to female gamers to be what's sexist and offputting, moreso than any game ads or game content. And sometimes it's surprising to me that this attitude STILL exists. It's 2012, geez. But this attitude isn't limited to just games and I've seen more or less the same on the internet. Given that I would say it's just an anonymous issue, but I can tell a pretty big difference in how Gamestop employees treat a male customer as opposed to how they treat me when I walk in a Gamestop. And I've known a girl who wanted to work there before who was flat out told no because she was female. fds;lkidfs;kldnf

Both sides of the spectrum are annoying too. If it's not "LOLOL BITCH GET BACK IN THE KITCHEN!" attitudes it's "OMG U R GURL WHO PLAYS GAMES MARRY ME" types who cling to you in an MMO if they discover you're female and insist on doing everything for you because obviously you are unable to click buttons because your breasts get in the way. Oh wait, they don't...

So I'm more concerned about that than game content. Guys seriously need to stop treating girls like trash in the gaming community.

Also had to edit because my cat jumped on the keyboard and borked my post and sent it before it was done. >>

[Xanfel]

Man, this thread is going all over the place. Hell, I'm not even sure if you're all talking about the same things you started out on.

For my own thoughts on the matter?

Does sexism exist in games? Absolutely, who in their right mind wouldn't think so?

What can we do about it? Aside from the economic pressure already being suggested, there isn't much you CAN do about it, except of course making the women part of the solution. If they do fid it so distasteful, you should be encouraging them to raise their own voices just as much as you're encouraged to champion the cause.

To be perfectly honest I think that games have simultaneously gotten much more and much less sexist over the years. The sheer amount of shovelware and/or 'casual games' (Dear God, that term) seems a good enough example of that. For every Uncharted Blockbuster with their Nathan Drakes, there are plenty of horrendously inoffensive party games that don't objectify anything other than questionable colour schemes. Or are we going to dismiss that aspect of the games market which has treated Nintendo quite well recently?

In regards to the larger issue of -why- more girls don't play games. It's almost certainly in some way affected by sexism. Not because gamers are sexist, but because everyone is. In my humble opinion it's practically impossible to separate any issue from certain amount of imbalance in how multiple demographics are treated.

I'm not going to say that this is how it should be, in fact I've always tried to treat women with the same courtesy and respect that I treat men (or lack thereof, in certain instance), but as has already been conceded in this thread - Who here can honestly say they do not harbour some sort of discriminatory habits?

And you all need to be careful about what you label as 'appealing and unappealing' to girl gamers. Most of you aren't, so even your most educated guesses are just that.

[Archaon]

Does sexism exist in games? Absolutely, who in their right mind wouldn't think so?

You say this like it should clearly be a rhetorical question, but between people who don't notice anything wrong with women's portrayal in games, people who notice the discrepancy but don't consider it a sexist issue, people who think the treatment women receive in gaming communities is all just harmless fun and people who flat out don't understand what sexism is, there are actually plenty of people "in their right mind" who wouldn't think so. That's kind of a big part of the problem.

[Tensei]

Unless you really meant "does sexism exist in games, and are games aimed primarily at male gamers?"

This is actually what a lot of people in this thread have to be convinced of in the first place.

[Xanfel]

You say this like it should clearly be a rhetorical question, but between people who don't notice anything wrong with women's portrayal in games, people who notice the discrepancy but don't consider it a sexist issue, people who think the treatment women receive in gaming communities is all just harmless fun and people who flat out don't understand what sexism is, there are actually plenty of people "in their right mind" who wouldn't think so. That's kind of a big part of the problem.

It -is- meant to be a rhetorical question, because in its most basic and universal form, sexism is merely treating someone of a certain sex differently than the other(/s if they're aliens, clearly).

Obviously there is a big problem in that people perhaps trivialise sexism in sinister ways - most problems don't really start off catastrophic, after all - but I'd be genuinely surprised if, after a brief chat and some fairly unbiased analysis of what is said to who and how, a lot of people still chose to suggest it isn't in some way discriminatory.

Then again, rationale and gamers often seem to have a disconnect that saddens me.

On a side not: I'd be worried that you to try and take a more balanced approach to sexism. Yes, it's more severe for women at the moment - but positive and negative discrimination exists in the male spectrum as well in the gaming community. Ignoring either one in the middle of a discussion is as much a discredit to your argument as ignoring both. How else can you find the balance that needs to be found if you don't consider both issues?

EDIT:

Reading that above paragraph -about male sexism-, I feel I should probably apologise. It's a bit self-important and preachy, and I don't want to suggest that anyone here is actively choosing to pick a side, as opposed to trying to articulate their thoughts as fairly and logically as possible. (Also, reading back a bit, this little piece of tedium has been covered already. I'll leave it there as a monument to my silliness, but please don't take it as a personal insult!)

[Monobrow]

Hi I'm female, and I want to point out that Irish (who is also female) posted a bunch of very valid complaints and observations and no one responded to them. Way to go.

Anyway here I go:

1. Just like there is sexism in many other aspects of society, there is sexism in video games, within the video game industry, in video game culture, in forums, social hierarchy, in character development, in story, aesthetics, ratios, etc. It's there, in so many different ways, and not just the obvious ones. It's up to us to be able to differentiate one from another, and not overgeneralize and deny different aspects of why sexism exists today.

To those that are: Stop saying that it's not happening, or that these things aren't sexist. It makes you look ignorant. Just because many women don't spend their time complaining doesn't mean that we don't care, or wouldn't care when challenged to talk about it, and even if some are content with the status quo, or have legitimately found comfort in our role, couldn't it also mean we've had to get over it, even on a subconscious level, so many times over by now, that we don't consider it important enough to address every day?

I think that it's something that most women, if they sat down and thought about it, would find offensive in some shape/form, or at least would prefer it to be changed, or portrayed another way, and I think a lot of you guys would prefer some differences at the end of the day as well. (as evidence in this thread) Even if we don't personally mind these things, because we possibly have been conditioned to accept them, doesn't mean that they aren't offensive or should not be considered so. The easiest way to move forward and progress in society is to acknowledge that there is a problem in the first place, who knows, things may eventually change for the better of everyone.

Furthermore, stop saying that just because males are having problems with this as well, that their arguments are invalid because they are not women. Very dumb. Also, I for one didn't know you could "white knight" for every woman on the planet when having a problem with sexism, I thought it was just pertaining to individuals? Anyway, you can make a point or an observation about a problem, even if you are not directly involved, and I'd argue to an extent we all are. It's just that so many of you guys, I honestly think, haven't felt the negative affects of the problem (at face value) enough to care either way, so that you attempt to justify why it's not a big deal or doesn't exist. Please understand, it's not a big deal to you, but it should be okay for it to be a big deal to others, and if it makes you feel uncomfortable to the point where you pretend that it shouldn't be, couldn't that mean that it may actually bother you more than you thought? You like video games, therefore when people have a problem with the source of your happiness (the fantasy world people keep talking about),could it be possible that you want them to stop because you are afraid of being labelled as someone who enjoys something at the expense of others? Let me for one, say I have no problem with people enjoying even sexist video games, because I understand they are made for enjoyment. What I have a problem with is people attaching that feeling to the video game so much that they glue every emotional response to whether or not the video game is good or bad. You pretend the game didn't use sexism to get there, that there's no grey area or room for improvement, that it couldn't give you that good feeling if done another way. FYI I play them too, but I have some problems here and there.

2. I like all sorts of video games, but it's funny that these debates always come down to FPS discussions and somehow it's used as a subtle tool to unravel women from being true gamers. My first FPS was Goldeneye 64, and it was a lot more appealing to me than say, Call of Duty (all of which I have played and beaten as well). Goldeneye, it was appealing to everyone, I could get into it because I understood the game, the motivation, and the shoot and kill, even with a male lead character. But as FPS games progressed, so did the slant against women. It's also funny, I enjoy the first Duke Nukem, it was over the top, almost tongue in cheek. But on a side note, I friggin' hate Duke Nukem forever, besides it just sucking, some of the jokes were seriously completely tasteless, as if they forgot the joke was the joke. But anyway, as games progressed, I noticed that as more details were produced, these games became less appealing to me, because they felt like they were not for me. For instance, Frost or Soap in CoD gruff dudes with zero personality that show little or no actual reaction or emotion to the stuff going on around them. They are portrayed as the silent protagonists, staying calm during duress, explosions, there are dead bodies everywhere, America is being invaded, they don't scream, they remain calm. But when you do see them, they are gruff, do what they gotta do, completely stereotypical. This game is G.I. Joe on steroids, things all you dudes were conditioned to want from a very early age, your Dad and Mom bought you these toys, my parents made it a point not to, and I have no problem with that. What I do have a problem with is when guys act like there is a problem with me that I don't get it. That I just don't like an FPS game because I am a girl. That none of this should matter because it's got little real story and you're just made to shoot things everywhere so get over it Think of it like this. Call of Duty is the scenario in that fantasy world where WWIII happens. Suddenly you find yourself in a full tilt invasion of America. In the US military, after so many attempts to change this, women are still not even allowed into combat. I can't see myself in that position. I can still appreciate the game, the details, feel in awe when I see the invasion and war in something that resembles a US neighborhood. However I can't help but feeling that it wasn't made for me to experience, I can get over that and still play however. But there are no virtually no females whatsoever in these games that I can identify, even in supporting roles. I think there might have been one, but you don't even see her face.

One of my personal favorite FPS games is Half Life 2, and all the episodes. (My boyfriend got me into it, apparently that somehow denotes that I'm not a legit gamer though if my boyfriend got me into it!) Alyx is a great character. Yeah a lot of dudes stare at her ass (especially making a point to in runs), but she's fully clothed, smart, and sensitive. In fact, she's got a pretty cool personality, she's not a super hero, she gets saved quite often. But she's not typical either.

Also fun fact: When I play Portal and Portal 2, I don't even think about the fact that the protagonist is female. Almost every fps game I play, I imagine myself as male, because I am used to it that way. Even when I make female characters in Morrowind (I kinda make a point to when I can get away with it) etc, I catch myself from my weird pseudo male perspective. I'm not like this with anything other than video games, and I think it's because of exposure. If I think about the story in Portal though, I get the female thing, it's done very well, GLaDOS is an awesome character. There are interesting female protagonist and female boss elements in other things such as Metroid and Silent Hill 3.

3. Darangen, your example of talking to 9 girls in a restaurant is so ludicrous on just a logical level that I don't even think I need to address that, but on a personal level it actually kind of angers me a little bit. Did that conversation somehow enable you to feel more validated in your opinion that big boobs are okay because these women seemed to not care? I could just as easily take everything people say at face value, but I realize I'd be tailoring incomplete data towards a false conclusion. The foundation of the question and observation is weak at best. For one, I guarantee that almost every girl you talked to probably has not picked up a game since age 10, as society told them that it wasn't for them a long time ago. As a woman who is 30 years old, I struggled to find people who would talk about video games with me. It wasn't until I got on the internet when I was 18 that I felt comfortable talking about it, but not until I changed my moniker to a non-gender-specific one in 2004 because of how crappy this scene has been in regards to gender. But as a kid, being a girl, I was considered a weirdo because I loved video games, it was my secret life, and not even in an unhealthy way, but something you guys would consider probably very regular by your parents. I was socially pressured from an early age to not like them, but I still played them anyway. I would ask my little brother to ask for them for me, because my parents would buy them for him but it'd be a battle for me. I felt isolated from my peers, there were many times in high school when guys were talking about video games I knew and loved, and I was too embarrassed to talk about them because I had associated talking about them with being ridiculed earlier or social groups of females that were not well liked, even though it was perfectly normal for males to like these things, it wasn't for me. When I was a kid, I had girlfriends who loved video games that do not play them today, and do not care, but when I talk about "old times" and things we used to play together, suddenly a light goes on, and they remember, "Yeah wow I really thought that was fun!" I had a circle of friends when I was ten that talked about video games on a regular basis. We also talked about girl stuff at sleepovers, but we'd play Ninja Turtles, or Mega Man, have magazines with cheat codes as well as magazines about boys. I can't help feeling that a lot of the female "turn off" is nurtured. It is true that some girls really never find them appealing, but I also know many dudes who don't as well. Why that is should come down to personal preference, not what gender you are.

This brings me to my point. The fact that women don't play as many video games as men doesn't mean that portraying women in some demeaning ways (how demeaning varies) isn't a problem. You cannot and shouldn't attempt to equate the two, but instead we should understand why they would be found demeaning. There are many reasons as to why women shouldn't be playing video games, it's really not a vessel of entertainment made to appeal to them. But we do anyway, regardless, and our numbers are rising. I feel envious that I wasn't born ten years later, and wish I wasn't exposed to so much societal pressure about computers and video games, because it's more accepted now. But portraying them as slutty boobs with a face only reinforces the notion that they are not made for us. I get tired of being reminded that I'm not the woman on the magazine daily, I hear lots of guys complaining about us reading that kind of trash, and I agree... But when it comes to video games, suddenly I'm taking it too seriously... Do I have to be reminded in every other video game too? It's not that I mind this specifically, it's that I mind this being the case for 90% of all female characters out there.

4. There is another HUGE problem, that is, boobs (heh). In video games, they are usually at least C cup. Most women who are in good shape are B or even A. Huge boobs and a great body are RARE. It's no surprise then that every other woman in Hollywood has some sort of boob job, and it's not a surprise to me that video games have even bigger boobs, you can just design them, weight doesn't matter, give them jiggle physics. I can't help but thinking how a man would feel if we put jiggle physics on his crotch. Anyway, I do consider it off-putting, one, since their bodies are designed by men, so are their clothes, and honestly I find so many female heroine's attires insanely tacky. Some of the stuff people link is just... Wow... Boobs is one thing, but the clothing these women wear is UGLY. It's like every other female heroine is a dominatrix, wearing the most uncomfortable shit possible, and not even for the sake of protection. I wouldn't call what they are wearing armor, I'd call it lingerie, the kind of stuff women buy to impress their dudes in the bedroom, conveniently titled "chain mail". Protection has nothing to do with it (unless she tells you to use a condom).

ENTER ZERO FASHION SENSE

Rachel from Ninja Gaiden. I felt vaguely annoyed every time I saw her. At the end, you can tell she wants Ryu, but he just walks away. She's literally just breasts with a face, and serves no purpose in the game. Breast candy.

Nice clothes, fit the environment, smart, fun personality:

A lot of people like Alyx, and guess what, Alyx probably beats Rachel for a lot of dudes (I mean there is naked mod), but the point is, she's something I prefer 100% and guys get to undress her regardless!

HELLO NURSE!

Heather is a 17 year old. She's very typical, but the creators emphasized on her looks for a purpose. They wanted to make you feel more vulnerable as you play her, because she is a rebellious, naive young teenager. She is not dressed for battling monsters or facing sexually explicit violence, she's clothed for the mall, where the game starts out, and then she makes due. By the end of the game you don't care what she is wearing.

SAMUS BUSTS OUT

And as for Zero Suit Samus, I can't help but feeling that the Samus I thought was cool as a kid came apart when she busted out of her suit with skin tight boobs and pouty lips. Yes it's tame compared to some other stuff, but you have to acknowledge that Nintendo did what everyone wanted them to for years. They sexualized her on a new level. Why don't we do that to Master Chief? Put him in his underwear, see how you feel about that, when he's "exposed".

And as for letting you guys have your fantasy world and it being what video games are about. I kinda wish sometimes that I could have mine too, just stuff catered to me a little more without dumbing down what I'm playing. But I don't, that's just the way things are right now. At least don't pretend we (anyone who notices it) can't have legitimate complaints about it. In the grand scheme of things, no it's not really a big deal, and I still play video games, but things could always be better. IMO this is a symptom of society, but negativity can only perpetuate itself.

[Legion303]

the article links to the source, which is a study conducted the ESA

It's like arguing with a fucking brick wall.

First, that's still not a study. Second, even if that poll were actually a study, it still didn't address your unfounded assertion:

you realize that the reason behind there being 1 female gamer there are 100 male gamers is because the medium is sexist, right?

Better luck next time, Sparky.

[Bleck]

First, that's still not a study. Second, even if that poll were actually a study, it still didn't address your unfounded assertion:

so your claim is that a study cannot be a poll, even if this poll provides the exact information that is relevant to the discussion (in this case, how many gamers are women), and your only supporting rationale for this claim is to say that your opponents are a 'brick wall' and to wish us better luck

well as long this is degenerating into childish bullshit; how does it feel, having to argue that videogames aren't sexist so that you won't feel bad about dead or alive being the closest you've ever come to actually fondling a pair of tits

also excellent post by mono (but those pictures were fucking enormous)

[psychowolf]

* awesomely long and detailed comment from a female gamer *

Monobrow has explained i think everything that needs to be explained about sexism in gaming culture.

I agree with the great character designs such as alyx and heather.

Now the question is how many more of these types can all of you guys and gals think of.

i can only think of one atm:

http://images.wikia.com/sonic/images/6/67/Sonicchannel_blaze.png

Blaze the cat from the sonic series.

she's not a stereotype or a "hook" for the furries *coughROUGEcough*

and she's a strong and rather powerful character.

[Dexie]

Maybe it's just me, but I really don't think Samus in the Zero Suit is a good example. It makes sense as something that you would be wearing under power armor like that, does it? I'm looking at an actual in-game shot from Brawl (Sorry, but the picture you used looks really fanmade to me), and it doesn't look that bad, I don't think.

I think it's a matter of context, in this case at least. I would imagine that Master Chief is wearing something skintight under his armor, too. Plus, y'know...it's Nintendo. I can't think of any other time they've designed something just to be 'sexy'.

(On another note, unless my memory is wrong, Brawl went both ways with it, and gave Snake a quite defined ass, if I'm remembering right.)

EDIT: And monobrow, can you find smaller pictures? It's making your post a bit hard to read.

[Monobrow]

It makes sense as something that you would be wearing under power armor like that, does it?... I would imagine that Master Chief is wearing something skintight under his armor, too.

I think the point is, they would never find a scenario to show it, and no one cares what's under his suit. But believe me, they care what's under Samus'. That's my point. They found scenarios to expose her that way. Suddenly she's "vulnerable". It doesn't matter that she starts out unpowered already

[Gario]

Yeah, I think Monobrow pretty much said everything that needed to be said, here. I would be annoyed at the large pictures, but actually by complete accident I learned that on my mouse wheel I can scroll fucking sideways by tapping the mouse wheel side to side. In-fucking-credible.

Dexie does have a point. Zero Suit Samus makes sense dressing like that - it's her undergarments to her more complicated suit. On the other hand, that means that if she's running around in her 'Zero Suit', she's running around in her underwear. So... yeah, you're playing a female character in her underwear.

I think the point is, they would never find a scenario to show it, and no one cares what's under his suit.

Mmm, I'd argue in Zero Mission it made contextual sense - her armor was taken away. That's about it, though.

A little better than running around in her bra, like the Super Metroid version would have been reduced to.

[Avatar of Justice]

Yeah, I think Monobrow pretty much said everything that needed to be said, here. I would be annoyed at the large pictures, but actually by complete accident I learned that on my mouse wheel I can scroll fucking sideways by tapping the mouse wheel side to side. In-fucking-credible.

Dexie does have a point. Zero Suit Samus makes sense dressing like that - it's her undergarments to her more complicated suit. On the other hand, that means that if she's running around in her 'Zero Suit', that means she's running around in her underwear. So... yeah, you're playing a female character in her underwear.

Mmm, I'd argue in Zero Mission it made contextual sense - her armor was taken away. That's about it, though.

A little better than running around in her bra, like the Super Metroid version would have been reduced to.

I dunno, if she's got a suit that can turn her into a ball without crushing her, you'd think it could magically make it so that she could wear something other than a skin tight suit. Why not a white t-shirt and some pants?

[Protricity]

Maybe it's just me, but I really don't think Samus in the Zero Suit is a good example. It makes sense as something that you would be wearing under power armor like that, does it? I'm looking at an actual in-game shot from Brawl (Sorry, but the picture you used looks really fanmade to me), and it doesn't look that bad, I don't think.

I think it's a matter of context, in this case at least. I would imagine that Master Chief is wearing something skintight under his armor, too. Plus, y'know...it's Nintendo. I can't think of any other time they've designed something just to be 'sexy'.

(On another note, unless my memory is wrong, Brawl went both ways with it, and gave Snake a quite defined ass, if I'm remembering right.)

EDIT: And monobrow, can you find smaller pictures? It's making your post a bit hard to read.

I'd say your in-game picture reflects the same point she made. I would say it was very obvious they were going for sex appeal

[psychowolf]

I dunno, if she's got a suit that can turn her into a ball without crushing her, you'd think it could magically make it so that she could wear something other than a skin tight suit. Why not a white t-shirt and some pants?

The issue is that the skin tight suit makes sense logistically seeing as if your wearing all that Armor you need something that makes the armor not get caught on either your own skin or on clothing underneath.

I get what you mean though a t-shirt and jeans idea would look less eyecandy and more character defining.

[Gollgagh]

I still abhor the zero suit

[AngelCityOutlaw]

This thread can be described in a picture