ReMixing With The Stars

[SuperiorX]

Yeah this is a pretty cool idea. I like the suggestions Gario and Will made below about making this a monthly or bi-monthly compo, rather than a tiered tournament. Those tournaments do take up a lot of time, so doing something monthly would allow people to come and go as they please. Having a monthly theme or soundtrack to choose from is a good idea too.

And I'm somewhere between a noob and a "star", so what team would I be on? Lol.

[Cash]

I like the suggestions made by Gario, WillRock, and SurperiorX. I'd prefer a once or twice a month sort of thing instead of a tournament.

[MindWanderer]

Wow--I'm amazed at how supportive people are at having me do this myself! I got the feeling that all I've really done around here is piss people off with critical reviews. I'll talk logistics with other compo organizers.

Just a quick something since I haven't seen it yet: I'd suggest making sure the newbies will actually be able to get into it, maybe an example to show they've worked a bit before and have a basic understanding. I think it would allow each participant, Star or novice, to get the fullest out of the compo.

Oh, yeah... I actually did have this in the back of my head, but forgot to mention it. Yes, each participant should submit a sample of their work--novices to prove that they've at least put some effort in and have at least a minimum amount of software to make it happen, and stars as samples of their work, so novices know where their expertises are and how they'd be most helpful.

Regarding tournament vs. one-shot format, I see your points, but I have mixed feelings. In favor of a tournament format:

• The tournaments seem to generate a ton more interest than the PRCs, which are often cancelled due to lack of interest.
  
• A round-robin format ensures that everyone gets to try several new things.
  
• It gives you that continuity effect of seeing individuals improve, which was a constant positive comment in the Wily Castle and the Sonic tournaments.
  

However, since this is a new idea, perhaps we can compromise: start it off as a one-shot, repeat as interest holds, and maybe do a tournament as a special event or if interest starts to fade a bit.

Regarding mismatches in numbers: What makes me uncomfortable is that it might come down to a judgment call. Say we have 3 novices and 5 stars sign up, and the stars are Gario, WillRock, DusK, Jakesnke17, and TheGuitahHeroe. I think we could all agree that Gario and Will stay where they are, but how the hell could one choose between the others without hurting feelings? Could do "first to volunteer for a demotion, first served," but that kind of sucks.

Themes: We could do this a few ways. I don't want it to be as restrictive as the PRC. Even choosing a particular game is limiting, and I want novices to choose something they have a passion for. But there should be some thematic element. When I was considering a tournament, I thought we could do novice/star theme sets (8-bit vs. 16-bit, Nintendo vs. Sega, fire stages vs. water stages) and do the usual tournament compo thing with them, but that makes less sense with a one-shot.

Partnering: Here's where feedback from experienced remixers could really be helpful (since all of my efforts have been pure MIDI). Round-robin format is obviously moot if this is one-shots. If people get to choose their partners, we risk hurt feelings and playing favorites, and perhaps novices holding out for working with some of the biggest names around here rather than learning what they can from people who are still pretty darn good. Then there's the whole "remix outside your box" idea. The compelling argument for letting people choose is of course software compatibility. What do you all think--randomize and force people to go outside their comfort zones and take some chances, or let people choose partners who favor the same tools they do?

I'm going to update the first post with a list of people who have specifically said they'd participate (scheduling permitting). I'll just assume that if you have a remixer profile linked to your username that you'll be in the star category; if that's not accurate for some reason, please specify.

[Rozovian]

Cool idea.

Why not let the novices find their own veterans among those who've said they're available? If the novices would be doing the bulk of the work anyway, the compo is kind'a geared towards them primarily.

Something to think about: genre restrictions. Might make voting more even, and not just about who does the most popular genre. I suggest you reveal the genre of the round _after_ partnerships are already formed, tho. We don't want to feel left out when everyone wants Willrock on their 80s synth rock tracks.

[PROTO·DOME]

Sounds cool broseph. If this ever takes off, I'll give it a whirl.

\/ \/ Examples of Work \/ \/

[jnWake]

I also want to be in as novice. I think my earlier post didn't state that clearly

[Modus]

This is awesome. I'll observe the first round, but I'm interested in signing on as a novice the next.

[Brandon Strader]

I'm not too fond of the idea of "Noob & Expert" or "Novice & Star" or however you want to put it. I don't think people should consider themselves "noobs" and likewise I wouldn't consider myself an "expert" or a "star", not even close. I'd be more comfortable calling myself a novice, and learning from someone who may know a thing or 2 more about production than I do. I mean no offense to anyone who would consider themselves an expert, I'm certainly not suggesting that they are arrogant or whatever, I just personally don't see myself ever considering myself an expert, not unless I'm supporting my family financially with music. So eh, that's just my opinion.

[DusK]

I'm not too fond of the idea of "Noob & Expert" or "Novice & Star" or however you want to put it. I don't think people should consider themselves "noobs" and likewise I wouldn't consider myself an "expert" or a "star", not even close. I'd be more comfortable calling myself a novice, and learning from someone who may know a thing or 2 more about production than I do. I mean no offense to anyone who would consider themselves an expert, I'm certainly not suggesting that they are arrogant or whatever, I just personally don't see myself ever considering myself an expert, not unless I'm supporting my family financially with music. So eh, that's just my opinion.

Oh, I wouldn't either. I doubt many OC ReMixers would. But really, the name's just to distinguish between people who have been doing this and are good enough at it to be posted, and those who aren't at that level yet. The goal is to help them get there, with some competition sprinkled in, I think.

[Garpocalypse]

I think with some of the quality that's been on OCR "star" might not be too far off. Some tracks from OCR I prefer to use as a mixing reference over commercial ones. Speaking just from within the OCR community, I have my heroes.

What's that saying? "To the world you might be one person but to one person you might be a pretentious douchebag with false modesty and a persecution complex"?

I never really had a thing for clever sayings like that.

I like this idea and would be the first to sign up for it, and I think Gar-io should be working with Gar-pocalypse on this one.

"We're G(u)arrrrrrrrds!"

[Modus]

I"To the world you might be one person but to one person you might be a pretentious douchebag with false modesty and a persecution complex"?

Now that's poetry right there. It reminds me of another..

"Don't be a stupid asshole and do good in life"

[Rozovian]

Yeah, it seems less about achievement and stardom and more about whether novices want the expertise of these stars. I'd be considered a star in this dichotomy, but there are ppl on ocr who have things to teach me about the things I consider to be my strengths. Then there are areas, styles, genres, techniques that I'm less proficient in, and would learn a lot from someone more experienced in those areas.

I can be someone's star, if needed.

[Rexy]

Likewise. Having also been involved in a to-be-posted track that will launch a new face into the community (and behind the arrangement even), I'm open to help out any way I can.

[Mak Eightman]

Yeah, it seems less about achievement and stardom and more about whether novices want the expertise of these stars. I'd be considered a star in this dichotomy, but there are ppl on ocr who have things to teach me about the things I consider to be my strengths. Then there are areas, styles, genres, techniques that I'm less proficient in, and would learn a lot from someone more experienced in those areas.

I can be someone's star, if needed.

Teach me piano prog boss:<

[Nabeel Ansari]

I'm posted, but I'm kind of a jerk. I don't think anyone would want my advice.

My mixing is also spontaneous; I can't do it correctly right off the bat.

But if anyone is drunk enough to want my help, I'm available.

[jnWake]

I see the novice-expert relationship as someone that can give you tips in different areas.

For example, I think I'm good enough at arranging and composing (though I'm always open for advice!), but I'd really really benefit from having someone help me with the production, since I don't know many tricks and there's probably many tools and stuff that I don't even know they exist.

[k-wix]

Really super-neat idea! Might be difficult figuring out who gets to do what, and the core rules of how things should be organized, but it's one of the best ways I can think of that people might improve over a short period of time. Kudos on the idea - goodluck getting things moving.

[PROTO·DOME]

If you guys don't want to be called experts that's fine.

Personally, I have reached the peak of musicality and have nothing more to learn from anybody. You just can't touch me.

[Magellanic]

It's true! Your hands will pass right through 'im.

In all seriousness though, I think that this is just a fantastic idea. All this expert/star talk I think is absolutely fine. You can always improve and learn more. Everyone is at different levels, its just some at at higher ones than others. I bet, though, even some of the stars would love to have a chance to pair up with some others to learn some cool production or arrangement tricks.

To sum up though, I think this is just a great idea and one that will only bring the community closer together!

[MindWanderer]

Why not let the novices find their own veterans among those who've said they're available? If the novices would be doing the bulk of the work anyway, the compo is kind'a geared towards them primarily.

Preferences do seem to be tending that way. I mainly want to avoid hurt feelings for if someone puts themselves out there and no one asks them for help, while others have people flocking to them. It could turn into one of those "who's the best remixer" threads that should be avoided at all costs. We could mitigate that by having the novices sign up by PM, ranking their preferences secretly, and I'd make assignments and break ties randomly without letting anyone know who was most popular.

I also want to make sure everyone who's interested in being a mentor for this is able to do so. The PM method wouldn't help if there's someone no one is interested in learning from.

Something to think about: genre restrictions. Might make voting more even, and not just about who does the most popular genre. I suggest you reveal the genre of the round _after_ partnerships are already formed, tho. We don't want to feel left out when everyone wants Willrock on their 80s synth rock tracks.

Interesting, and that might be cool for the veterans, but I'd like the novices to be totally in their comfort zones. If someone puts themselves out there enough to jump into a new and extremely challenging hobby, I want them to come out of it saying, "I made something truly awesome," not "I don't really dig this, but I guess I'm satisfied with how I did." Also, novices might not have the budgets for good software or even sound cards; if the genre were, say, Classical, then the sample quality makes a huge difference.

I'm not too fond of the idea of "Noob & Expert" or "Novice & Star" or however you want to put it. I don't think people should consider themselves "noobs" and likewise I wouldn't consider myself an "expert" or a "star", not even close. I'd be more comfortable calling myself a novice, and learning from someone who may know a thing or 2 more about production than I do. I mean no offense to anyone who would consider themselves an expert, I'm certainly not suggesting that they are arrogant or whatever, I just personally don't see myself ever considering myself an expert, not unless I'm supporting my family financially with music. So eh, that's just my opinion.

Very reasonable and modest, and I'm sure no one is arrogant enough to say they have nothing to learn from anyone (Edit: Ninjaed by PROTO·DOME. Seriously, anyway). But the truth is that you are good enough to have gotten posted, and that's a milestone you could potentially help others achieve. That's kind of why I wanted being posted to be the dividing criterion, because it's objective (at least, for this purpose). Of course, if you're not comfortable being a mentor, then that's by far the most important thing.

[Nabeel Ansari]

Brandon, I think you're confusing "expert" with "professional".

[Nonamer]

When would this actually take place? If it's going to be a month, I can spend some time to practice. If its next week, count me out for the first round.

[SuperiorX]

Hey MindWanderer, I have a few suggestions based off what everyone is saying and based off some of your concerns:

Regarding tournament vs. one-shot format, I see your points, but I have mixed feelings. In favor of a tournament format:

• The tournaments seem to generate a ton more interest than the PRCs, which are often cancelled due to lack of interest.
  
• A round-robin format ensures that everyone gets to try several new things.
  
• It gives you that continuity effect of seeing individuals improve, which was a constant positive comment in the Wily Castle and the Sonic tournaments
  

In regards to the structure, I can see your point here. The tournaments do garner more interest normally and have more likelihood for quick improvement, especially the team-based compos. I, for example, learned a ton in the WCRG from working with Phonetic Hero and Rozovian. On the other hand, they do take up a lot of time and you might not be able to get that many "stars" to commit to that much time.

How about you do some sort of combination of the two formats? I can envision an episodic approach. Imagine it just like a television show talent competition (just like your thread name implies), only instead of a new episode each week, we'd have a new episode each month. So "Episode 1" would start the 1st of one month... the first week you'd announce the theme/genre, then have all the novices and stars announce if they're interested or not and then have people team up (however you want to do that). The next 2 weeks could be spent working on your mix, and then the final week could be spent on public voting. Then the next month start "Episode 2", announce a new theme, anyone who wants to stay in the competition can continue but you could also open it up to new novices and stars at this point. This way, any novices who have the time and want to keep competing can, and we can still see them improve month-to-month just like you would in the tournament competitions. But then also any stars that are super busy can just go month by month that they want to compete. This would also allow new stars that weren't free other months to join at any time. This might actually work out best because we can still watch the novices improve, but then also have them paired up with new stars each and every month. In fact I would enforce that the novice has to be paired up with a different star each episode to keep it fresh. It would be exciting to watch them grow!

You could maybe do like 6 episodes like this (so 6 months), then do an "All-Stars" season finale, where the winning duos of the last 6 episodes compete to see would be crowned the Season 1 ultimate winner! This would work unless we had the same novices/stars win multiple months, then we might need to have a star work with a few novices (if the same star won more than once) or whatnot. Then if Season 1 goes great, you could take a few months off, then start Season 2 the following year (or restructure the competition if this format didn't work, etc.).

I think this format would still accomplish what you want (getting to see novices improve), but still garner more attention & participation than the PRCs.

Themes: We could do this a few ways. I don't want it to be as restrictive as the PRC. Even choosing a particular game is limiting, and I want novices to choose something they have a passion for. But there should be some thematic element. When I was considering a tournament, I thought we could do novice/star theme sets (8-bit vs. 16-bit, Nintendo vs. Sega, fire stages vs. water stages) and do the usual tournament compo thing with them, but that makes less sense with a one-shot.

That might work. I think you need to have some structure, letting people just pick any song they want might make voting tougher because there would be no common theme holding the show together. People might just vote for the more common theme or the theme they like more. I think picking a particular game or composer as a theme for each show would work, or like you said, do something like "water themes" one month, "battle themes" the next month, "end game/credits" music, so on and so forth. You might want to check out Dwelling of Duels for ideas, because they pick similar "themes" to guide their competitions.

I would also say just letting people pair up would probably work. Even if people gravitate to people they like one month, you have to switch it up the next, so more people would get to work with different people eventually.

Wow--I'm amazed at how supportive people are at having me do this myself! I got the feeling that all I've really done around here is piss people off with critical reviews.

hahaha, nah man you're fine Some people just can't take harsh criticism. However, if you want to play that role up, you could be the Simon Cowell of this competition and just be like "What were you thinking? That was by far the worst remix I have ever heard."

SuperiorX (seriously? How are you not posted? May need to revise "star" criteria just for you)

hahahaha, I'm working on it, I've got a couple things in the judging queue right now, so we'll see I'm glad you think I'm that good though... I might be able to be a "star" for the noobest of noobs that might sign up, but I wouldn't mind being a novice at all, there are a ton of things that a ton of people around here could teach me

Also I think you mistakenly put ProtoDome in the novice category... he is most definitely a "star"

[PROTO·DOME]

Also I think you mistakenly put ProtoDome in the novice category... he is most definitely a "star"

Goddamit SuperiorX, way to blow my cover.

[MindWanderer]

How about you do some sort of combination of the two formats? I can envision an episodic approach. Imagine it just like a television show talent competition (just like your thread name implies), only instead of a new episode each week, we'd have a new episode each month. So "Episode 1" would start the 1st of one month... the first week you'd announce the theme/genre, then have all the novices and stars announce if they're interested or not and then have people team up (however you want to do that). The next 2 weeks could be spent working on your mix, and then the final week could be spent on public voting. Then the next month start "Episode 2", announce a new theme, anyone who wants to stay in the competition can continue but you could also open it up to new novices and stars at this point. This way, any novices who have the time and want to keep competing can, and we can still see them improve month-to-month just like you would in the tournament competitions. But then also any stars that are super busy can just go month by month that they want to compete. This would also allow new stars that weren't free other months to join at any time. This might actually work out best because we can still watch the novices improve, but then also have them paired up with new stars each and every month. In fact I would enforce that the novice has to be paired up with a different star each episode to keep it fresh. It would be exciting to watch them grow!

Nice idea! Combines the freedom of drop-in, drop-out with the continuity, and the enforced learning from, and teaching, different people. I'm definitely leaning this way now.

That might work. I think you need to have some structure, letting people just pick any song they want might make voting tougher because there would be no common theme holding the show together. People might just vote for the more common theme or the theme they like more. I think picking a particular game or composer as a theme for each show would work, or like you said, do something like "water themes" one month, "battle themes" the next month, "end game/credits" music, so on and so forth. You might want to check out Dwelling of Duels for ideas, because they pick similar "themes" to guide their competitions.

I also notice that participation at DoD seems to be higher during their "open" months. Unless the specific game or source is fixed somehow, there's always going to be some issues of people voting for whatever source they like better. Maybe make the first and last "episode" of the "season" open, and come up with themes for the "episodes" in the middle, just to retain everyone's attention?

With PROTO·DOME put in the right category (oops), there's clearly enough interest on both sides to get this started. I'll continue to gather input and discuss options in this thread, and plan on starting a "real" compo thread with more-or-less finalized rules on Monday, July 2. One week to collect entrants, two weeks to mix, 1 week to vote. If this becomes a regular thing, I'll probably stick to the first Monday of the month to start the thread for each new episode, which means there will sometimes be some overlap between voting and gathering participants for the next episode, but that should be okay.