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Previous FF6 Kickstarter *cancelled* BUT new one in the works!!

djpretzel

By djpretzel,
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SwordBreaker Newbie

SwordBreaker

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The long silence with no official updates is just making everyone agitated and rightfully so. Even the update on the main page has been static and outdated. Looks awkward.

I guess after all this trouble one wonders if it's even worth restarting the Kickstarter. If Square and OCR come to a mutual and legally bound understanding then things will go very smoothly. If some issues are still up in the air, then it's best to avoid Kickstarter and seek alternative methods. Whatever the case may be, hopefully the music itself is going good.

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Jansu Newbie

Jansu

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On the #ocremix IRC channel on irc.esper.net, djpretzel stated that "we anticipate an announcement about the Kickstarter sometime tomorrow."

Cool. Hope things can finally proceed and the album raises more cash than Ouya. ($8.6 million!! ;-))

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Seraph Newbie

Seraph

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If I may be so bold as to respond to my own post, let me hazard a guess about what it may be that I'm missing. Maybe the music isn't the issue at all; Fair Use covers it adequately, and it really is the case that no one is willing to sue us over our arrangement activities. The issue could be nothing more than the fact that we were fundraising in SE's name and using their properties to attract beaucoup donations to support our site. Again, nothing to do with the music. I dunno, just making a guess here. Like has been said repeatedly, the music will be made no matter what happens with the Kickstarter.

As far as I was aware though, none of the funds would be going towards supporting the site, just the products in the project itself. I may be wrong in that assumption, and I would certainly not object to my donation supporting the site.

Also, I'd LOVE to be a fly on the wall in the conversations/negotiations with S/E on this topic.

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Unununium Newbie

Unununium

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As far as I was aware though, none of the funds would be going towards supporting the site, just the products in the project itself. I may be wrong in that assumption, and I would certainly not object to my donation supporting the site.

If I remember correctly, one or two thousand were to go to the project itself since some tracks were expected to cost some money to produce; maybe a choir needed to be hired or something. I dunno. The rest of the $15k was to go to the production and distribution of physical CDs as well as to any other prizes, perhaps a making-of DVD or whatever. But the ~$60k overflow beyond that? Where could it possibly go other than to the site itself?

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Gario Collaborator

Gario

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As far as I was aware though, none of the funds would be going towards supporting the site, just the products in the project itself. I may be wrong in that assumption, and I would certainly not object to my donation supporting the site.

Zircon is right - there was more to this than the original print run; you can expect that things such as the FF7 printing would've been pretty significant. In the original kickstarter, though, it was mentioned that OCR would have received some of the donations, as this was intended to replace the 2012 Support OCR month, as well. So yeah, some of the spillover was, in fact, going back to the site.

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Seraph Newbie

Seraph

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Zircon is right - there was more to this than the original print run; you can expect that things such as the FF7 printing would've been pretty significant. In the original kickstarter, though, it was mentioned that OCR would have received some of the donations, as this was intended to replace the 2012 Support OCR month, as well. So yeah, some of the spillover was, in fact, going back to the site.

Oh, right. I completely forgot about that. My mistake! :oops:

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Annie Felis Newbie

Annie Felis

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I'm guessing if there's anybody being slow to respond, it's whomever is negotiating for SE's legal department and not OCR. Big companies with big lawyers probably have a lot on their plate, and I imagine it takes time to respond.

This is the only speculation I'll do in regards to this, because speculating anything else is silly. I'm still happy that we're getting a FF6 remix album, regardless of whether we can have printed copies of it or not.

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Brandon Strader Newbie

Brandon Strader

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We REALLY thought we'd have an update for everyone on Friday, but it didn't happen. We're optimistic that Monday should bring news.

I have a question, hopefully it won't be taken the wrong way by anyone or cause any speculation~

Is SE looking at any of our public information during these debates? Like are they reading this thread or other threads, checking our forum or artist profiles, or listening to the FF content on the site?

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Kennedy Newbie

Kennedy

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I know you're speaking in generalities here, not specifically about the FF6 project. So, generally speaking, would royalties/license fees apply only to distribution of physical media, or would they also be compelled for online distribution of music files? If the latter, would that restrict further redistribution?

Unununium, royalties are required regardless of means of distribution. Record, CD, DVD, Radio, TV, digital downloads, etc. All those distribution formats have their own form of licensing and require royalties if the copyrighted works are distributed in any way. This, as you might assume, does have the potential to further restrict distribution for some. Usually you pay royalties for every single downloaded file. That being said, royalty rates are usually much less than the standard rates for distributing via CD etc. , and often times you can purchase "blanket" licensing, which provides even more savings to the distributor. Usually the only difficulty in distributing digitally is setting up and managing the information and money. Copyright owners usually require semi-annual notification and records of what has been distributed. This means you need to keep good records of transactions. There are a lot of methods for automating these things, but ultimately, it is one more thing in the whole process that will require someone's valuable time and energy.

Let's say OCR has a fund for paying royalties per download, and the fund is periodically replenished by fundraisers and/or good investment strategies. That's all well and good for the initial download, but then fans share the downloaded music amongst themselves; include it in derivative works such as re-remixes, compilations, YouTube videos, and school projects; DJ it at clubs; and broadcast it on electromagnetic and Internet radio. Could fans be exposed to legal challenges for failure to pay license fees to the video game companies? If so, at first glance it would seem nice if they could also tap into the OCR fund, but I fear there's potential for abuse, plus it would be burdensome to tally the number of times any given track has been redistributed across all forms of media. Consider the torrents. I see absolutely no way to monitor their use aside from logging *.torrent downloads from bt.ocremix.org and guessing that each such download amounts to one download of each file in the torrent and that no one will ever mirror or otherwise redistribute the *.torrent files or make magnet links.

Absolutely right. Derivative works, re-mixes, compilations, YouTube videos, DJ'ing....it all requires licensing and/or permission from the original copyright holder. ...there are some exceptions (such as music that you have playing on a TV that is heard from another room etc.) But even in that case there are restrictions to the size of the room and the length of the audio transmissions into rooms etc.

...not to overburden you, but copyright law is very specific about all the things you mentioned. Yes, it is "unlikely" that a huge conglomerate will sue you for playing a piece of their music in your high school band...and I think anyone that would is probably just a jerk... ...but the fact of the matter is that...they do, indeed, have the right to. Quickly in regards to DJ'ing, most people don't realize that it is actually the club owners responsibility to ensure all music played in the club is cleared. Obviously this probably seldom happens, but they are legally responsible for what the DJ plays. Could fans be exposed? I can't say no to that. Anytime we don't respect the law, we have the potential to be "exposed". At the end of the day, it is always best to ask permission. ...forgiveness usually costs more.

In regards to royalties paid via OCR and fans using it. I don't see how it would work unless fans pay for the downloads. ...but lets be honest, if you just paid the minimum for each track (paying royalties to both the copyright owner AND the musician that arranged the works) you'd likely be paying less than 25 cents per track. That's a steal.

Also, might it be possible that these restrictions apply only to tracks that include music from certain game companies? That could further complicate matters. Would OCR have to make arrangements with every game company, or only with those who contact OCR first? (Might this current episode with SE encourage others to come knocking?) Some tracks contain only brief quotations, and some tracks arrange work from multiple game companies (e.g. Livin' Large! softly plays around a dozen notes from FF9; the rest is from a VERY different game, incidentally from a company that no longer exists); how's that counted? Determining where the money needs to go could become a chore as difficult as obtaining the money in the first place or deciding how much of it needs to be disbursed.

Yes. It is a lot to think about. I don't think we need to worry about people pounding on our doors, but when using someone elses intellectual property gets a lot of attention or funds raised...it can certainly complicate things for those who don't pay their respects. All these copyright restrictions pertain to ALL works sold and/or made available for distribution in the USA. It doesn't matter who made it, and where it's from. If they made it available in the US in any way, it can be licensed and is copyrighted. There are certain kinds of licensing for music that is mix and matched...and yes, it still requires permission. When I've done mixed arrangements for previous albums I owed licensing on every piece of music a track used. ...so for instance, if I played a 10 second melody from one song, then 10 seconds from another, and then followed it all with 3.5 minutes from another, I owed licensing on all three. *ouch*

Do you happen to know how these concerns apply outside of music? I'm thinking of cosplay, web comics, fan fiction, fan artwork, and dōjinshi featuring video game characters.

OCR and myriad others hope original copyright holders decline to sue and instead prefer to reap free publicity and goodwill. Our current situation suggests that tossing gobs of money into the mix upsets that fragile dynamic. We claim to be protected by Fair Use, but as ebuch says, it's a defense; even though we may prevail in court, we still have to get the lawyers involved. I find it rather telling that many fan sites say "please don't sue" in their "legal" disclaimer. I'd prefer to have a stronger legal foundation than trusting the copyright holders' kindness and PR sense. I really hope I'm just blowing this out of proportion. If so, please explain to me what I'm missing.

In regards to the cosplay/fan fics etc....I don't remember all the details offhand (and obviously I'm not a lawer) But it doesn't relate in any way to music licensing. I know that with music, there are few exceptions to paying royalties. However, my understanding of these other things is that (as they can all be creations based off of licensed 3rd party content) all of these things can fall under copyright violation if you are making a profit from it. Making your own shirt, costume, book, art...cool. Just don't sell it without permission.

As for blowing things out of proportion...Nope, you've got it. You're not "entirely" blowing this out of proportion. Copyright law is a serious issue, and it's sadly one that (a) people know very little of, and (B) those that do know something about it don't like, think publishers are big selfish jerks, and so they ignore the law. Don't do that.

Just for the record (and I wish I could remember my source so I could cite it) I recently read a study that revealed that out of all the people "losing" money from royalties, our "starving artists" are #1. They account for over 1 BILLION dollars of lost revenue annually due to illegal distribution and use. If I remember correctly, it was something so huge that out of all the money potentially lost by copyright infringement, the "big" companies only accounted for a very small percentage of that loss. Piracy really does hurt the small artists.

Frankly, I'd like to see more support for our own artists. We have some amazing talent in this community.

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Kennedy Newbie

Kennedy

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I have a question, hopefully it won't be taken the wrong way by anyone or cause any speculation~

Is SE looking at any of our public information during these debates? Like are they reading this thread or other threads, checking our forum or artist profiles, or listening to the FF content on the site?

Who can say? But it wouldn't surprise me. That said, depending on their perspective, they may or may not consider anything we say. The law is pretty clear, and they have a lot of rights. However, my experience with them shows that they are very mindful of those who have good intent and respect for the owners. It would certainly be beneficial for SE to listen to their own fans. I'm sure they will do what is best for both parties.

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