Kickstarter FAQ / issues / concerns

[djpretzel]

But as I understood it- you used the link as an example of why you take issues with other albums. IE: heres what we do, so when others don't do this, it's an issue.

Yes, that is a correct understanding. It's not a HUGE issue, it only explains why our advice may differ from what we ourselves do - such advice is made knowing that unless the album is official, nothing similar to our Submission Agreement has been signed. Theoretically, if whoever would have actually handled the $$$ for VV would have signed a similar agreement with all artists on the album, and made that agreement public & available, I guess THEN it might be more comparable, but there are a lot of logistics and "ifs" in that equation.

[Gario]

[*]I think our general guideline here is just gonna be "within reason" - a few songs from one game, or a mashup of two songs from two games seeems reasonable to me. A ten-song mega-medley, or a mashup of 4 songs from 4 games, does not. Generally speaking, backers should look to existing mixes on OCR as examples of what we would consider as reasonable, as ideally we'd want to post the end result to the site.

If someone asks for a four source remix, I'll do it for ya. Via the Kickstarter reward, that is - not just out of the blue.

[Jason Covenant]

When zircon saw that Prophecy (the director of the second FF6 project) was interested in starting one, zircon spoke to him and asked if he was interested in collaborating. He wasn't, so they decided to work on our projects separately and amicably.

That's not entirely true. Shortly before the private project was announced, Zircon invited me to be part of his project and I declined because of philosophical differences. I made some suggestions which generally involved merging the projects in a way that Zircon also had philosophical differences with and also declined. It is untrue that I was categorically opposed to collaboration, only that we had irreconcilable differences in the way such a project should be run. You are correct that we did agree to work separately and amicably.

On a lighter note, congrats on having such a successful kickstarter!

[herograw]

Okay apologies in advance if this post is obsolete, unnecessary, whatever.

Is it just me, or do a lot of the detractors for this project not realize that you don't actually have to pay any money to get the music?

I mean, do people actually think they're "buying" an album at $50? Somewhere along the line a whole lot of people misunderstood the point of kickstarter, the point of prizes, something, idunno. Sorry, it has just been a good while since I wanted to yell at a computer screen.

And since when have CDs become popular? I know I'm going to lose/misplace mine almost immediately. And before anyone says it, yeah. Collector's item. Got it.

[djpretzel]

okay apologies in advance if this post is obsolete, unnecessary, whatever.

Is it just me, or do a lot of the detractors for this project not realize that you don't actually have to pay any money to get the music?

I mean, do people actually thing they're "buying" an album at $50? Somewhere along the line a whole lot of people misunderstood the point of kickstarter, the point of prizes, something, idunno. Sorry, it has just been a good while since i wanted to yell at a computer screen.

And since when have cds become popular? I know i'm going to lose/misplace mine almost immediately. And before anyone says it, yeah. Collector's item. Got it.

i kiss you

[SnappleMan]

Okay apologies in advance if this post is obsolete, unnecessary, whatever.

Is it just me, or do a lot of the detractors for this project not realize that you don't actually have to pay any money to get the music?

I mean, do people actually think they're "buying" an album at $50? Somewhere along the line a whole lot of people misunderstood the point of kickstarter, the point of prizes, something, idunno. Sorry, it has just been a good while since I wanted to yell at a computer screen.

And since when have CDs become popular? I know I'm going to lose/misplace mine almost immediately. And before anyone says it, yeah. Collector's item. Got it.

I think the real issue is that a traditionally not for profit institution who up till now was keen on going head to head with others because those others were charging for music is now making a profit on music. And the debate is more about the profit being spun to appear as no profit at all. So whose definition of profit is right? That's for you to decide!

[Avatar of Justice]

OCR is currently a sole-proprietorship LLC. We are not-for-profit in the sense that we are bound by the terms of our own content policy, mentioned above. At present, if I die OCR would be treated like anything else I own and would pass to my spouse, and then next of kin, etc. according w/ Virginia state law. I'm thinking most people donating don't care about any of that, actually, but since you asked... At some point in the future we may change our legal entity and/or construct a formal will that has more detail, but you know, I kinda like to spend MOST of my time posting mixes and improving the website...

Yeah, I was talking to my girlfriend (who works for a nonprofit) about nonprofits and apparently it's a real pain in the ass. OCR would have to be registered in every single state in order to legally solicit donations as a nonprofit. So, I totally get the "MOST of my time" thing now.

[FoxxDragon]

Is it just me, or do a lot of the detractors for this project not realize that you don't actually have to pay any money to get the music?

I mean, do people actually think they're "buying" an album at $50? Somewhere along the line a whole lot of people misunderstood the point of kickstarter,

------------

Why Kickstarter?

Even though this album will be distributed for FREE via ocremix.org, we plan on printing LIMITED EDITION PHYSICAL COPIES.

So for $50 you can help fund our most epic album yet AND get a baller FOUR-DISC limited edition physical copy

$50 REWARD = FF6: BALANCE AND RUIN (4 DISCS)!!!!!!

Will I be able to buy this album some other way, after the kickstarter is over? No; this is a one-off fundraiser to support the album & the site, not a foray into operating as any sort of store/marketplace/etc. We don't know exactly what the future has in store but we can say with total confidence that this will be your single best chance of obtaining a physical copy of this album

---------

Yes. It sure is strange why people might think that.

I'll make you a deal, guys. Stop acting surprised, upset, and offended that people like myself, see it pitched this way, and I'll stop pointing it out.

[SnappleMan]

Yeah, as much as I want to support this thing it's looking more and more like shady politicians trying to hide a scandal. Adding that $10,000 pledge is pretty ridiculous...

[Melbu Frahma]

Yeah, as much as I want to support this thing it's looking more and more like shady politicians trying to hide a scandal.

Wait, huh? Who's a "politician"?

[zircon]

Ooook? What's the scandal exactly? Pretty sure we've explained over and over what our initial goals were, where the money is going, etc. AFAIK not a single backer has withdrawn any pledge whatsoever so nobody is being deceived either. You're just hating at this point. If there are any unanswered questions or concerns I'd be happy to answer them.

By the way, fighting over the definition of 'profit' is pointless. If you want to define 'profit' as any donations not being spent on the physical production costs of the FF6 album, then yes, there is profit. But the profit isn't going in the pockets of anyone on OC ReMix. Not myself, not Dave, not the remixers. That's the important part. saying "we're earning a profit" is misleading because it implies we're pocketing money, when we aren't doing that. Big difference between that and, say, selling a VGM remix album for $15 and keeping all $15 for yourself.

[SnappleMan]

Ooook? What's the scandal exactly? Pretty sure we've explained over and over what our initial goals were, where the money is going, etc. AFAIK not a single backer has withdrawn any pledge whatsoever so nobody is being deceived either. You're just hating at this point. If there are any unanswered questions or concerns I'd be happy to answer them.

By the way, fighting over the definition of 'profit' is pointless. If you want to define 'profit' as any donations not being spent on the physical production costs of the FF6 album, then yes, there is profit. But the profit isn't going in the pockets of anyone on OC ReMix. Not myself, not Dave, not the remixers. That's the important part. saying "we're earning a profit" is misleading because it implies we're pocketing money, when we aren't doing that. Big difference between that and, say, selling a VGM remix album for $15 and keeping all $15 for yourself.

You mean keeping the $1 that's left after paying the printing cost, packaging cost, shipping cost? Bubble wrap, envelopes, etc? I had a good hamburger or two with the profit I made off of my CD. I'm not into making any real profit off of other peoples music. And that's just it, not only is OCR making (as of now) $60,000 off of our individual works, but OCR is also making that profit by selling music that even the musicians don't own. I think there's a bit of ethical sourface that comes with that, for me at least. And it really doesn't make you guys look good by adding an even bigger pledge after you were already way overfunded. It's like "Hey people are really donating! LET'S SEE IF THEY'LL DONATE MORE IF WE ASK FOR MORE!"

It's mad shady any way you look at it. I don't like people who hide behind spun words and shady dealings such as this. Makes me feel all crawly.

[OceansAndrew]

And it really doesn't make you guys look good by adding an even bigger pledge after you were already way overfunded. It's like "Hey people are really donating! LET'S SEE IF THEY'LL DONATE MORE IF WE ASK FOR MORE!"

No additional tiers have been added; the 10k has been there since the beginning.

[FoxxDragon]

For the record: I personally don't think you guys are being shady. I said that before- it's a few pages back now. But that wasn't my complaint. I can see why people have such a worry, but thats not mine. Personally.

The only reason I keep bringing it up now is because people keep going "man what are people complaining about!? Don't you understand kickstarter? don't you understand ________"

I felt like Zircon actually answered the $50 question just fine, before. Which was that it wasn't thought through well enough. I'm okay with this.

But then people still want to be up in arms about why thats even an issue- which means you're calling me or anyone else who takes issue with it, an idiot. While simultaneously saying that it WAS thought through just fine. And so, thats not okay. I feel like myself and others who took issue, have valid reasons for it.

[SnappleMan]

In the end it's all a matter of ethics and integrity. I don't feel right having this much money raised by selling someone else's music. And having the money go to the site, which is fine if the KS was for the site, but it wasn't. As much as I try, I can't get my moral compass to point the other way. I do this for fun, and if I can get my music on a CD that's physical and nice, then fuck yes, I'll happily charge for that, but I have not and will not try to make any modest-significant profit from compositions I don't own. OCR gave me and everyone else shit when we sold CDs at $5-20 each, and now they raise $60k and defend it by saying it's site donation and whatever else... too slimy for me.

I talked to DJP and really tried to see his reasoning but this whole thing is leaving a nasty taste in my mouth. Still, I'm glad OCR has this much support and I hope the money gets spent well and everything goes great. I'm just talking about my personal feelings towards this situation. If that money goes to buy the rights, then there's no problem at all, but as of right now it's just on that thin line of illegality and moral discomfort that's making me feel off.

I don't want it to come off like I'm bashing the site or anything like that, I'm just giving my biased perspective on it.

[The Coop]

In the end it's all a matter of ethics and integrity. I don't feel right having this much money raised by selling someone else's music. And having the money go to the site, which is fine if the KS was for the site, but it wasn't. As much as I try, I can't get my moral compass to point the other way. I do this for fun, and if I can get my music on a CD that's physical and nice, then fuck yes, I'll happily charge for that, but I have not and will not try to make any modest-significant profit from compositions I don't own. OCR gave me and everyone else shit when we sold CDs at $5-20 each, and now they raise $60k and defend it by saying it's site donation and whatever else... too slimy for me.

I talked to DJP and really tried to see his reasoning but this whole thing is leaving a nasty taste in my mouth. Still, I'm glad OCR has this much support and I hope the money gets spent well and everything goes great. I'm just talking about my personal feelings towards this situation. If that money goes to buy the rights, then there's no problem at all, but as of right now it's just on that thin line of illegality and moral discomfort that's making me feel off.

I don't want it to come off like I'm bashing the site or anything like that, I'm just giving my biased perspective on it.

Sounds like you have the same issue with this fund raiser, that I had with Extra Credits' Rockethub drive to help their artist, Allison, get the needed operation on her shoulder. They asked for $15,000, and got a bit over $100,000. The extra money then became a kind of indie game publisher project, which was WAY off from the original point of the fund raiser, and didn't sit well with me at all.

[zircon]

And having the money go to the site, which is fine if the KS was for the site, but it wasn't.

Well wait, why would that be a hangup though? This happens on Kickstarter all the time. If a game developer funds a specific project, and that project gets way overfunded, obviously they're not going to just keep dumping money into the same project when it isn't necessary. That would just be wasting donations. I'm pretty sure I could find a way to spend every cent of this on the most blinged out CD printing imaginable, you know, gold trim and diamonds on every copy. But who wants that? People are still donating, we're not gonna say no to that especially since we've said and they KNOW that some of that is going to OCR.

That's just the way KS works. It's expected that if something is overfunded, you're at that point donating at least some portion to the organization/people running the project, not JUST the project itself. And I'm fine with that as long as it's transparent (which it is), and as long as none of us are individually taking money (which we're not).

The extra money then became a kind of indie game publisher project, which was WAY off from the original point of the fund raiser, and didn't sit well with me at all.

Again why is this a bad thing? As long as you don't pretend or lie and tell people what their money is going toward, what exactly is the problem? People are free to donate their money how they please. If people donate to our Kickstarter knowing that each dollar will be split between the album, the bonus content, additional rewards, and OCR itself, that's fine.

[SnappleMan]

"A 4-Disc Final Fantasy 6 Album from OC ReMix"

[The Coop]

Again why is this a bad thing? As long as you don't pretend or lie and tell people what their money is going toward, what exactly is the problem? People are free to donate their money how they please. If people donate to our Kickstarter knowing that each dollar will be split between the album, the bonus content, additional rewards, and OCR itself, that's fine.

Keep in mind, the next two paragraphs are addressing only the EC stuff...

Simple; because that's not what the fund was for. The fund was for Allison, her lost wages, her recovery/therapy, medical expenses, and hiring a few artists to help the show while she was getting better. Helping indie gamers doesn't factor into that at all. It wasn't the project goal, and wasn't a part of the project until well after they'd gotten what they needed (if I recall, they had something like $50,000 or $60,000 by the time the publishing thing came up).

Sure, people can give as they see fit. No argument from me on that point. But you always... ALWAYS... plan for the worst (not meeting your goal), hitting your target, and exceeding your goal. You let people know ahead of time what will happen, instead of just winging it after it happens. If you do that from the get go, then people don't get thoughts about... well, thoughts like what's going on in this thread. EC didn't think it through, and it led to drama between them, The Escapist and so forth.

Of course, that's just my stance on what took place back then.

Now, I personally don't have an issue with what's going on with the OCR fund. I have faith in the ability of the staff to not start clamoring for every dime that they can hang on to with a death grip while purchasing a six inch-tall gold statue of the Nice Work Guy for every room in DJP's house. But at the same time, I can understand why some eyebrows got raised here when the numbers kept climbing. The ways the extra funds will be used here are far more in line with the fundraiser than what EC did, but that people raised their hands to ask a question (or ten) isn't outlandish in my book. The tone of the questions certainly wasn't always very friendly, but...

[HoboKa]

In the end it's all a matter of ethics and integrity. I don't feel right having this much money raised by selling someone else's music. And having the money go to the site, which is fine if the KS was for the site, but it wasn't. As much as I try, I can't get my moral compass to point the other way. I do this for fun, and if I can get my music on a CD that's physical and nice, then fuck yes, I'll happily charge for that, but I have not and will not try to make any modest-significant profit from compositions I don't own. OCR gave me and everyone else shit when we sold CDs at $5-20 each, and now they raise $60k and defend it by saying it's site donation and whatever else... too slimy for me.

I talked to DJP and really tried to see his reasoning but this whole thing is leaving a nasty taste in my mouth. Still, I'm glad OCR has this much support and I hope the money gets spent well and everything goes great. I'm just talking about my personal feelings towards this situation. If that money goes to buy the rights, then there's no problem at all, but as of right now it's just on that thin line of illegality and moral discomfort that's making me feel off.

I don't want it to come off like I'm bashing the site or anything like that, I'm just giving my biased perspective on it.

You talking about morals Snapp?? How about all the griefing to the newer remixers and your elitist high-horse douchebaggery? Don't you think that that BS gives OCR as much a black eye, as (you claim) this fundraiser is to the people you've messed with?

[SnappleMan]

You talking about morals Snapp?? How about all the griefing to the newer remixers and your elitist high-horse douchebaggery? Don't you think that that BS gives OCR as much a black eye, as (you claim) this fundraiser is to the people you've messed with?

The butthole that never heals. I don't think your personal vendetta belongs in this thread. PM me if you have a problem.

[Darklink42]

In the end it's all a matter of ethics and integrity. I don't feel right having this much money raised by selling someone else's music. And having the money go to the site, which is fine if the KS was for the site, but it wasn't. As much as I try, I can't get my moral compass to point the other way. I do this for fun, and if I can get my music on a CD that's physical and nice, then fuck yes, I'll happily charge for that, but I have not and will not try to make any modest-significant profit from compositions I don't own. OCR gave me and everyone else shit when we sold CDs at $5-20 each, and now they raise $60k and defend it by saying it's site donation and whatever else... too slimy for me.

This pretty much sums up the entire counter argument I've seen going on in about the KS. It's a big wrap-around back to "But we tried something sort of like this and we got slapped down for it. Why do you guys get to?" Everything after that has read like paranoid conspiracy theory and a lot of hurt feelings over something that's already done and over with. DJP explained himself rather succinctly when he pointed out that what he had to say about the VV album (and others like it, I'm guessing) was simply advice consistent with what he felt was his obligation to a community he is a part of and feels ought to get a straight and honest deal.

Yes, that is a correct understanding. It's not a HUGE issue, it only explains why our advice may differ from what we ourselves do - such advice is made knowing that unless the album is official, nothing similar to our Submission Agreement has been signed. Theoretically, if whoever would have actually handled the $$$ for VV would have signed a similar agreement with all artists on the album, and made that agreement public & available, I guess THEN it might be more comparable, but there are a lot of logistics and "ifs" in that equation.

Metaphors and jokes aside, it should be obvious that people are taking sides here based on a conjecture that isn't even true. NO ONE IS CONSPIRING. Seriously, it's just childish to keep nitpicking and trying to insist that somewhere in here is a deep, intricate plot to bilk money out of all of us unsuspecting saps. Everything on the KS page is as straightforward as an idealistic project can be. As much as the mental image amuses me, I don't believe that Shariq, DJP, Andrew, and Larry are sitting in a back room somewhere smoking Cuban cigars and thinking about what they're going to do when all that sweet cash rolls in. If anything, they're all very likely sitting at their desks at their day jobs thinking "Well shit, when did everyone get so generous? And what else can we make that will be awesome enough to match that level of generosity?" I know I would be.

In the interest of honesty, do I figure that 50 bucks for the physical copy is a bit much? Yeah, but only because I can't afford it right now and won't be able to before the kickstarter ends. But is it going to do anyone any good to come in here and carry on about how I think there's something Fishy (har har) going on here simply because it's out of my price range? No, no it's not. Because as many people have pointed out and have been ignored by those who disagree, it's not a store purchase of a four disc set, it's a reward for a donation to the project and the site behind the project. Anyone who donated is paying for a free album they can download, first and foremost. The rewards are there only to incentivise people to give a little bit more for something they want in return. Any physical copies received by the donors are essentially promotional tools given away by OCR, with an appropriate budget for shipping tacked on. If no one had paid 50 bucks? I can only guess that the budget for the studio time would have jumped dramatically.

we plan on printing LIMITED EDITION PHYSICAL COPIES. These copies will NOT be sold, but will be available as prizes or gifts at conventions, OCR panels, contests, and similar events. We've found that physical albums are a very important promotional tool, and often encourage donations or purchases of t-shirts, bumper stickers and other OCR merchandise. These sources of revenue are essential in keeping the site, which is run by an all-volunteer staff, up and running.

To put it more simply, look at it like this: if no extra money had come in for this project beyond the estimated budget for recording studios, printing, shipping, and so forth, where would the money come from to support the torrent bandwidth, the separate site, and various associated maintenance costs? OCR's budget. Aside from additional bonuses the staff adds to this project with their sudden surplus of funding, where else is that money supposed to go but into the site's budget? Extra money goes into OCR's budget, extra money goes out to keep the site for the project and OCR's servers, and the torrents, and the direct downloads open and available to everyone. I see zero issue with that. Why do you?

[SnappleMan]

In the end all I care about is having my self indulgent progwank on this album unaffected by the torrent of drama I'm getting from 20+ people from 5 different communities who expect me to give a shit about their views on this kickstarter business.

As long as OCR isn't breaking a law we should shut the fuck up about it, but denying that it's even a possibility is just silly.

[FoxxDragon]

No toe-stepping intended...

In short, and as I see it:

- Selected quote from the KS page (since we're doing that): "this is a one-off fundraiser to support the album & the site". That's what you do or do not plunk down money for.

- Everyone gets the arrangements for free. $50+ on Kickstarter and you get a fancy package too. Up to you.

The KS was, again according to the page itself, for "the album & the site*" - the latter of which can use all of the extra money. Everyone who has donated has agreed to this, and it's either allowed or not allowed on Kickstarter and, I guess, by laws in general which there should be less talking out of arses about and more looking up facts if indeed that concerned (and not just looking for excuses to bitch about stuff).

So i tried to look up your pull quote, Torzelan. Here are some things I learned:

-That quote doesn't exist. I couldn't find it. I read through the site and even did control+F and watched the video. Didn't see it. So. Uhhhh..?

-In fact, the only place it even says the word "fundraiser" on the whole KS page is to mention "Jimmy did OCR's first fundraiser" It says it once. in the context of the past.

-Furthermore, there is barely any mention of anything about funding going to OCR anywhere on the KS site. There are about 3 or 4 small brief mentions of it. And ZERO in the video. 95% of the text on the KS site is: SURPRISE.. about MAKING HARD COPIES.

-The spot where it says it the most clearly is on the original OCR announcement page on the site itself. And it says "We want this to be the biggest, hugest, most awesomest fundraiser in OCR history"

(oh hey did you know that fundraising via kickstarter isn't allowed? yeah you did. you said so already. But we get to get around it since there was an album associated with the drive. Even though the bulk of the KS money is set to go elsewhere from the get go. )

Bonus round of learning (the more you know!):

-Most of the so called "rewards", cost more than the actual items themselves. Except the $1 one. The 5k/10k ones debatable though on their own world altogether.

$10 "reward" for a $5 album.

$25 "reward" for a $17 package

$50 reward for an album that costs $10 to make + $17 package ($27)

$100 for an $27 package + an album that probably cost $10 (or LESS) to make ($37)

For a group sooooooooo firmly against themselves or others profiting off this stuff, those sure are some interesting numbers.

You guys are impossible. It would be so so so easy and civil to simply realize that you advertized this completely wrong,and own up to it- even by simply admitting it. But no. Gotta insult. Jesus christ. People are not "pulling things out of their arse"- unless you mean facts, and math. And we are not "making up conspiracies" or "taking sides firmly against OCR" and whatever negative, snarky thing you have to say about legitimate complaints.

I've been more than civil through this whole discussion and you're STILL saying the same stupid snarky remarks.

WHY everyone ELSE has to be wrong, an idiot, a jerk, and a conspiracy spouting loon, instead of just MAYBE the fact it was set up poorly, is beyond me. Just impossible to come to terms with that, isn't it?

But hey. you made the money right? so who cares.

It could be argued that it went far better than it would have if it was set up in a more reasonable way. Lord knows you wouldn't have made this type of money otherwise.

I personally cared because I wanted an understanding both from the staff- and from the community who so fiercely defends it. It isn't right. at all. And like hell would it be even remotely acceptable for other people to do this. OCR doesn't get a pass because they're OCR. We could say "yeah, we're only human, mistakes were made" and move on, but NOPE! Just can't do it! Everyone ELSE must be wrong. Oh, and stupid. don't forget that.

The definition of insanity is doing the same things over and over and expecting a different result. I've been doing that, and I've definitely gone insane. So consider this my last post on the subject in these forums. Call me an asshole, a conspiracy theorist, pulling facts out of my ass, a hater, whatever. The facts are there. if you choose to pretend otherwise, thats your problem.

[SnappleMan]

That's it, I'm starting a kickstarter of my own. No joke.