Tropes vs. Women / #GamerGate Conspiracies

[timaeus222]

This statement was meant as a response to those who say violence in the media causes an increase in actual violence. It was a request for proof NOT a hope for evidence; I wasn't trying to establish any link between depicted violence and real-world violence.

Alright then. Yeah, it was a bit unclear at first. My mistake.

[Ab56 v2 aka Ash]

Sorry to respond to something way later than it was posted, but life's been busy.

i'd imagine a lot of research of that kind is regarded as inconclusive or subject to doubt (see: any study on the correlation between video game and real world violence). my interpretation of these kinds of analyses is less concerned with proving an objective, definitive connection between the consumption of a particular media and the thoughts that go through the minds of the people consuming them, and more with the nature of pleasure and identification in art. that is, if an artistic product's success is tied to its ability to resonate as truthful or authentic to its consumers, then what kind of truths do art forms like video games reflect? and, if upon investigations like this video series we are troubled by what we see, what does it say about the very real issues of violence and oppression of women in society, and the way they are enabled by both those who perpetrate those actions, as well as those who have the privilege to deny or ignore them?

My issue is more that I don't understand whether Anita intends for her video series to be expository or persuasive. On her Kickstarter page, her thesis was, "This video project will explore, analyze and deconstruct some of the most common tropes and stereotypes of female characters in games. The series will highlight the larger recurring patterns and conventions used within the gaming industry rather than just focusing on the worst offenders." The thesis makes it sound like it could be either expository or persuasive. If she is creating an expository piece, it makes sense to argue that certain tropes are prevalent. However, when she explains these tropes, she uses language that suggests the audience should interpret the tropes and examples of them to have specific meanings or characterizations. For examples of what I mean, you can see one of djp's posts from much earlier in the thread.

In discussing her examples, she does not thoroughly analyze the entire context surrounding a game to explain the competing interpretations of these examples. Nor does she use academic research or anything else substantive to explain why the audience should agree with her interpretation more than any other. Moreover, she does not concede that there is the slightest possibility of ambiguity in how someone should interpret the trope examples. Instead, by offering one conclusory interpretation after the next, she has created an unsubstantiated opinion piece rather than a well-argued and fair opinion or expository piece. As a result, I ended up very confused about what the goal of this video series actually was, aside from getting people to talk about women in video games.

You could say that I'm just complaining about form over substance, but in my experience, they really do go hand-in-hand. I mean, my whole career is about crafting persuasive arguments.

P.S. Before anyone calls me on it, yes I did change my opinion a bit from earlier in the thread. However, I still don't have any ill will toward Anita. This is only a critique of her work, not of her.

Edited June 9, 2013 by Ab56 v2 aka Ash

[Brandon Strader]

Gonna let this speak for itself

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFpNTcYmid8

[djpretzel]

Moreover, she does not concede that there is the slightest possibility of ambiguity in how someone should interpret the trope examples. Instead, by offering one conclusory interpretation after the next, she has created an unsubstantiated opinion piece rather than a well-argued and fair opinion or expository piece. As a result, I ended up very confused about what the goal of this video series actually was, aside from getting people to talk about women in video games.

You could say that I'm just complaining about form over substance, but in my experience, they really do go hand-in-hand. I mean, my whole career is about crafting persuasive arguments.

P.S. Before anyone calls me on it, yes I did change my opinion a bit from earlier in the thread. However, I still don't have any ill will toward Anita. This is only a critique of her work, not of her.

I personally think it's great that this thread has changed anyone's opinion It's been rather clear to me that folks tend to mentally allow for only two sides - you're either in agreement with everything she's saying, or you're against everything she's saying. In trying to articulate my own viewpoint that doesn't fall squarely into either category, I think I've at least convinced Andy that some of what he was describing as being logical & self-evident really wasn't either; that doesn't make those opinions worthless, it just changes the dynamic a bit. Unwavering certitude is actually a pretty BAD thing to have when it comes to interpreting art or postulating its effects upon audiences, in my opinion. I don't want to neuter or reduce the role of cultural critics to helpless bystanders, but when they speak in absolutes and extend their domain well into the field of psychology without batting an eyelash, you know something's gone wrong. It's not "cultural criticism" anymore, it's just someone ranting on the Internet.

Gonna let this speak for itself

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QFpNTcYmid8

Peach remains in character... shocker.

[Malaki-LEGEND.sys]

Wow... That's pretty freaking bad. I mean, I get that it's supposed to be "funny" since it's Luigi, but good god the 80's is strong with this one*.

*That last bit was referring to "80's level" of sexism for those of you born past 1993.

Edited June 27, 2013 by Malaki-LEGEND.sys

[relyanCe]

P.S. Before anyone calls me on it, yes I did change my opinion a bit from earlier in the thread. However, I still don't have any ill will toward Anita. This is only a critique of her work, not of her.

nothing wrong about changing your opinions. My own opinion on Anita's videos, while still one of staunch disagreement, has become much less spiteful.

[Brandon Strader]

THIS GUY makes sense

http://i.imgur.com/M6qIiya.png

[The Legendary Zoltan]

Does he mean that the women are overly sexy? I thought that was different from mysogeny. He can't be talking about the violence. It's freaking Mortal Kombat!

[Brandon Strader]

I think people consider women looking attractive to be misogyny.

It doesn't make a lot of sense.

[Bleck]

so how does it feel to be a misogynist

[Esperado]

I think people consider women looking attractive to be misogyny.

It doesn't make a lot of sense.

I think they see it as it being some form of objectification. somehow we are magically supposed to see that hot girl in Starbucks as the sum of all of her qualities , instead of the only one you currently understand, which is her looks. I don't think cat calling or staring are ok but I think a little head turning is perfectly fine if not normal. if humanity was made of sexless nevernudes we would have stopped reproducing and died out thousands of years ago. so its kindof part of our wiring to find each other attractive. there's a fine line though.

[Brushfire]

So there are rumors circulating that Sarkeesian didnt actually play any of the games that she claims to have.

Pics were offered as evidence. Granted this is from Encyclpedia Drammatica, so it might be wise to take this with a grain of salt. Again rumors.

(Pics are too big for image linking)

https://images.encyclopediadramatica.se/7/7b/Feminist_frequency_stole_god_of_war.png

https://images.encyclopediadramatica.se/3/39/Feminist_frequency_steals_A_link_to_the_past_V.2.png

https://images.encyclopediadramatica.se/0/0b/Feminist_frequency_steals_borderlands_2_angel_V.2.png

https://images.encyclopediadramatica.se/a/af/Feminist_frequency_steals_Dracula_X_Chronicles_V.2.png

[Dexie]

Not really rumors. Those pics came from this guy's blog: http://victorsopinion.blogspot.be/2013/07/anitas-sources.html

There's more examples there. I'd like to hear her explanation for this, myself.

EDIT: The best part, is that her videos use footage from the Gamecube version of Twilight Princess, and yet in her picture of the games she bought, she shows she got a copy of the Wii port of the game. Bet she didn't know the Wii version was flipped and that it would be a total dead giveaway to people that it wasn't her footage.

Edited July 30, 2013 by Dexie

[The Coop]

She'll address it after the final video comes out in 2024

[Brandon Strader]

Explanation: since when do people have to use their own recorded game footage in videos? It's easier to use public footage and is in no way an indication of whether someone played a game. That's just unfair.

Though she probably hasn't. lol

[Bleck]

it doesn't really matter

[Brandon Strader]

It does matter and I shouldn't really have to explain why.

It's apparent with some of her examples and mischaracterizations that she hasn't played many or all of the games she talks about.

[Bleck]

it doesn't really matter

[Annie Felis]

It doesn't really matter. I haven't actually played Metroid: Other M, but I have seen enough of the cut scenes to know it's the worst game in the series. I would assume that she did enough research on the games she's mentioned to use them as examples.

[AngelCityOutlaw]

It doesn't really matter. I haven't actually played Metroid: Other M, but I have seen enough of the cut scenes to know it's the worst game in the series. I would assume that she did enough research on the games she's mentioned to use them as examples.

Yes, knock it before you try it; some cut-scenes are sufficient to form a well thought out, supported opinion of why something sucks. Clearly that is the lesson in all this.

I do agree though that for the purpose of her arguments, playing the games isn't really necessary.

[Annie Felis]

Yes, knock it before you try it; some cut-scenes are sufficient to form a well thought out, supported opinion of why something sucks. Clearly that is the lesson in all this.

I do agree though that for the purpose of her arguments, playing the games isn't really necessary.

I watched my husband play it. I had no interest in it after watching him.

[Cerrax]

Yes, knock it before you try it; some cut-scenes are sufficient to form a well thought out, supported opinion of why something sucks. Clearly that is the lesson in all this.

I do agree though that for the purpose of her arguments, playing the games isn't really necessary.

Especially in cases like Other M, where the cutscenes are completely opposite of the gameplay. On the merits of just the gameplay, Samus is a strong, capable bounty hunter. But in the cutscenes, she's seen as a bumbling, emotional mess who cracks under pressure. The cutscenes completely contradict the gameplay as well as degrade and stereotype women. Other M is simply a decent game with absolutely deplorable execution, on a game design level as well as a cultural level.

[Brushfire]

Explanation: since when do people have to use their own recorded game footage in videos? It's easier to use public footage and is in no way an indication of whether someone played a game. That's just unfair.

Though she probably hasn't. lol

If you were given 160K, I'd expect you to do more thorough research beyond "Lemme look at some let's plays on the youtubes." 160K is enough to buy the nicest of footage capture cards, and the most complex of editing suites.

[The Derrit]

it's not like she hasn't proven herself time and time again to be a complete skeeze is anyone really surprised that she's plagarizing and lying about her work?

she already did that in her bayonetta video that was removed when the internet called her on not knowing what actually happened in the game.

[Malaki-LEGEND.sys]

Actually it does matter, because context is important when trying to use narrative as an example. It would be fine(although a bit incomplete) to simply use the imagery itself as sole examples of blatant oversexualization.