Xbox One

[Lyrai]

Microsoft’s global director of marketing Craig Davidson has bullishly claimed that it will ‘kill Sony at E3,’ and that its Xbox One console will turn heads at the Los Angeles-based event.

Speaking to IGN Spain (translated via Google), Davidson commented, “Xbox One will surprise the world during E3,” before adding, “We will kill Sony at E3.”

They've gone full Daikatana.

[Brandon Strader]

Um, actually because of the fact that used games don't go into the developer's pockets at all

That's not quite true. All used games are retail games to start with. After someone buys something, it becomes their property. If companies don't get a cut from people sharing their own property then that's not our problem. I don't expect Sears to start banging down doors if you give away a piece of furniture. I don't know why we should tolerate this anti-consumer behavior, nobody else does this kind of stuff.

[KyleJCrb]

Brandon has a point: games have what is called residual value built into the price, as do most goods that we are able to trade and sell (books, movies, electronics, cars...) Developers don't get paid from individual used sales, that is true, but the reason why prices are so high to begin with, and why the argument that "no used games would bring the prices of new games down" does hold some water (even though I have absolutely zero faith in Microsoft and Sony to actually drop prices) is because of residual value.

[liquid wind]

I don't know how accurate this is, but it's scary as hell.

I have my webcam aimed at the wall most of the time.

This does not seem like something a reasonable person would bring into their home.

This isn't a microsoft thing, this is where our whole society is going. People have already proven that they are perfectly willing to be spied on if there is enough social pressure to accept it.

Doesn't the Wii U controller also have a camera in it? We also have wonderfully invasive innovations like facebook and the iphone. Nothing new, in the coming years it's going to be an increasingly safe assumption that you are always being watched.

[Gario]

That's not quite true. All used games are retail games to start with. After someone buys something, it becomes their property. If companies don't get a cut from people sharing their own property then that's not our problem. I don't expect Sears to start banging down doors if you give away a piece of furniture. I don't know why we should tolerate this anti-consumer behavior, nobody else does this kind of stuff.

Brandon has a point: games have what is called residual value built into the price, as do most goods that we are able to trade and sell (books, movies, electronics, cars...) Developers don't get paid from individual used sales, that is true, but the reason why prices are so high to begin with, and why the argument that "no used games would bring the prices of new games down" does hold some water (even though I have absolutely zero faith in Microsoft and Sony to actually drop prices) is because of residual value.

I honestly do not know how this means that Microsoft or the publishers get any profit from used game sales. Yes, the game had to be purchased initially, and I understand that there is a pricing system that most items normally experience once they're in the 'used' category, but unless I'm mistaken Microsoft and the publishers do not get a cent of the used game transaction, considering it's considered the property of the person who bought it.

In the case of residual value, to my understanding that only applies either when an item has an expiration date (like a perishable) or when the item has been taken off the lot (like, say, a game). If a game was created two years ago but was stocked in storage by the publisher then they would still very likely sell it at full price. Whether a retailer would like to see that game hanging on their shelf for a long period of time is a whole different story, but the retailer selling the game at a loss at that point has little to no affect on Microsoft or publisher (save for the fact that retailers may not hold the game anymore...).

My point was that abolishing used game sales will only deter people who were buying the game used in the first place, which doesn't affect Microsoft's bottom line negatively at all. If people were comfortable buying games new already there's no reason they would be affected by the price point of a game remaining the same once used games are off the market. Hell, because there would be no options left (e.g. the market would be more or less monopolized), the used game purchasers will likely purchase a game or two new (probably not too many of them would, being used to purchasing games at low prices), so this action could even mean strict profit for Microsoft.

CLOSING NINJA NOTE: For people still thinking that closing out the used games front will affect new game prices, why were games before used games always ~40-60$ anyway? Accounting for inflation, that's considerably more than games are being charged for today, and prices stayed relatively fixed (or even arguably decreased) during the reign of Gamestop and Walmart.

Edited June 2, 2013 by Gario

[Native Jovian]

I honestly do not know how this means that Microsoft or the publishers get any profit from used game sales. Yes, the game had to be purchased initially, and I understand that there is a pricing system that most items normally experience once they're in the 'used' category, but unless I'm mistaken Microsoft and the publishers do not get a cent of the used game transaction, considering it's considered the property of the person who bought it.

You're correct. The point that they're making is that new game sales are a requisite for used game sales, and publishers, developers et all do get paid for new game sales, so they're not entitled to get paid for used game sales as well.

My point was that abolishing used game sales will only deter people who were buying the game used in the first place, which doesn't affect Microsoft's bottom line negatively at all.

In terms of game sales? Probably not, no. But in terms of console sales it could have a huge impact, especially if the PS4 doesn't end up having this sort of anti-used-game shenanigans (we already know that the Wii U doesn't, but the competition between Microsoft and Nintendo is much less direct than that between Microsoft and Sony).

Any really, honestly, we as consumers don't particularly care about Microsoft's bottom line. No one's arguing that it's a bad idea from Microsoft's point of view to encourage (or require) new game sales instead of used game sales. It's certainly a bad thing from the consumer -- that is, our -- perspective, though, since it means that we'll be paying more for games in the future without getting anything additional in return for it.

[Mirby]

I saw an article recently about used games sales and the industry at large.

Thought it was relevant given the current discussion.

Here ya go

[Gario]

The point that they're making is that new game sales are a requisite for used game sales, and publishers, developers et all do get paid for new game sales, so they're not entitled to get paid for used game sales as well.

Yeah, I got that point. It's even mentioned in the quote that you noted - I was simply saying it had no bearing on the point I was making.

In terms of game sales? Probably not, no. But in terms of console sales it could have a huge impact, especially if the PS4 doesn't end up having this sort of anti-used-game shenanigans (we already know that the Wii U doesn't, but the competition between Microsoft and Nintendo is much less direct than that between Microsoft and Sony).

Oh no, I wouldn't argue that making such a decision will devastate Microsoft (and rightly so). I'm arguing against Darkesword's point that abolishing used games would lower the new games market price.

Originally Posted by Darkesword

The existence of the used games market is what keeps the prices of new games so high.

Taking out used games then knocking a little bit off of the new game price isn't going to soften the blow at all for customers, You can't claim new games would ever come anywhere near used game pricing - producing, marketing, publishing, licensing, shipping, retail... these costs need to be covered profitably, because of which I suspect people looking for games to be sold new at the 19.99 - 29.99$ mark will be sorely disappointed. The people that would've already have bought the game will be happier, while the used gamers will feel ripped off - it's honestly a likely lose/lose situation for Microsoft to reduce their prices.

EDIT AGAIN BECAUSE I CAN'T SLEEP RIGHT NOW: You know what? Mirby's link points something else out that kind of strikes hard at the heart of it. Used sales affect no other business than the games industry, it seems. Don't people think that it's more that the game industry is the only one who could exploit opportunities to remove this market, so they're demonizing it before they remove it completely? Piracy, I understand - that's a unique problem that digital media has to deal with. A used market is something virtually all markets need to deal with, yet the only one that it making it out to be evil is the market that can uniquely implement measures to prevent it from happening anymore. Makes me think people are not only getting the shaft, but that they're also being led to believe that it's going to be a good thing in the end without realizing that it was never a bad thing.

Edited June 2, 2013 by Gario
I should probably get to sleep rather than making the most terrible ninja edits on the planet.

[Malaki-LEGEND.sys]

That article Mirby pointed out gives some great perspective. For starters, and this has been a point of contention for me for awhile, why do certain games even HAVE a multiplayer option? Assassin's Creed 2, Tomb Raider, Spec Ops: The Line, Ninja Gaiden 3, Bioshock, the list goes on. These games live and die by their single player narratives and gameplay, and yet they add a very superfluous multiplayer that people might try for a day and never look at again; Wasted time and money.

Secondly, and this might earn me some ire, why do we employee so many people whose salaries have ballooned FAR beyond what they should be worth? Don't get me wrong, a person needs to be compensated fairly, but really? An average of $76,400 a year for a programmer with less than 3 years of experience? And people wonder why companies are quick to gut employees when a game doesn't meet sales projections such as Tomb Raider with it's 3.4 million(which apparently meant shipped, not actual sold from a correction Garnett Lee made on an episode of Weekend Confirmed).

Honestly, the biggest reason I didn't buy games used before was because of a lack of quality control; games could be covered in assorted types of shit or not even work. Now however this problem is nearly done away with, and I didn't feel bad at all about buying a used copy of New Super Mario Bros. U when it cost me the price of a last gen Wii game as opposed to freaking 60 bones.

Games are getting more and more expensive, and the industry is becoming more and more anti-consumer with the Xbone and PS4. Don't know how much more I can take.

[Avatar of Justice]

Secondly, and this might earn me some ire, why do we employee so many people whose salaries have ballooned FAR beyond what they should be worth? Don't get me wrong, a person needs to be compensated fairly, but really? An average of $76,400 a year for a programmer with less than 3 years of experience? And people wonder why companies are quick to gut employees when a game doesn't meet sales projections such as Tomb Raider with it's 3.4 million(which apparently meant shipped, not actual sold from a correction Garnett Lee made on an episode of Weekend Confirmed).

The software industry is having a problem right now filling positions. It goes far beyond games. One of my college friends is a manager who does a lot of hiring, and he has people walk away from $75,000 because hiring is so competitive right now. They walk because either they can get better pay elsewhere, they don't like his company's corporate culture, or just because his company doesn't have national name recognition. Unlike most other parts of the economy, things are running in the favor of the people looking for jobs. There just wasn't enough kids studying programming in college after the tech bubble burst back in the early 2000's. The software industry is currently lobbying the US government to up the cap on skilled worker visas to try to fill the positions and drive wages back down.

tl;dr It's not that salaries are beyond what people are worth. It's what the market will bear for people with that skill set.

Edited June 2, 2013 by Avatar of Justice

[Mr. Bottle Rocket]

amazon has the xbox one priced at £599, that's 900+ dollars, y'all still want it?

Personally I'm on the camp of "I hope they fail completely with this one".

[Crowbar Man]

Whey do people keep mentioning price tags on Amazon? They are simple placeholders until something official comes out. They put them to something usually silly high so people can preorder and they can still get their price guarantee.

Keep in mind, I don't really care about the Xbox One at this point either way, but I wish people wouldn't make a big deal out of Amazon placeholder prices (like the $99 for games) as some sort of indication of a final price.

Though, if Nintendo is selling the Wii U at $350, I can easily see the Xbox One (or PS4) "premium" editions being near $500, unless they do the whole contract for XBLive thing. We'll see at E3 I guess (if they announce pricing).

Also, even if if it was 599 Euro, they would probably match it $599 in the US. They generally pick something around the same number amount across territories, even if the conversation rates seem like they would be different.

Edited June 2, 2013 by Crowbar Man

[Malaki-LEGEND.sys]

Personally I don't see it going any higher than $500, with a subsidized model allowing for lower payments introduced as well.

[Malaki-LEGEND.sys]

Personally I don't see it going any higher than $500, with a subsidized model allowing for lower payments introduced as well.

[Hyperion5182]

Warning: I'm going political, i'm going to rant somewhat but it needs to be said and i'm saying it. And normally i'm not Anti-Microsoft. But this needs to be put out there.

This console needs to fail. It needs to not sell a single unit. The only reason to buy this console should be for target practice in shotguns.

In this age where rights are being given up without people even understanding what they are or what they mean this poison pill is the ultimate weapon for those who wish to spy on other people. The Security of the Xbox has NEVER been as solid as it should be and network security is NEVER as good as it needs to be.

Siting the following from an article from Time

The new console will come with Microsoft’s refined Kinect sensor, a detachable hammerhead-like camera with microphone that you’ll probably position somewhere high up in your entertainment center, where its upgraded 1080p widescreen eye can easily sweep your play-space. Unlike the Xbox 360, which functions whether the Kinect camera is attached to the console or not, Xbox One won’t work without Kinect plugged in. At least part of the reason for this is that Microsoft wants its new system to be instantly responsive and interactively seamless — so tuned to your physiology that the company is saying it can even measure your heartbeat simply by “looking” at you (courtesy its new infrared camera). But that sort of granularity also raises obvious and completely reasonable privacy concerns.

Read more: http://techland.time.com/2013/05/22/xbox-one-raises-the-burden-of-privacy-safeguards-5-questions-for-microsoft/#ixzz2V7nNp6KF

There are good and bad things about what is being offered. But the bad in this case in my opinion far outweigh the good. The level of electronic data-mining and down right illegal spying going on today is enough to start a world electronic war if hackers were of a mind to. Don't believe me? Check out that place in Utah DHS just opened up. This forum, and all others are being monitored for EVERYTHING.

Commercial concerns aside it is relatively easy for those even with solid security to be hacked to the point where a person can look through a spycam. But instead of a grainy image that would only gross out the person. They would instead have a very clear image able to give the user astonishing detail. Pull out your credit card? He can probably read the numbers, or steal the signature. Leave a bill on the table? There goes that. Oh and if you're a woman in something casual or waiting on your significant other to arrive in something of a provocative nature? Dont expect to be leaving for the world to think about

That is just the black-hats. Lets look at the bigger danger. Those who hold the information, and those who want it.

Quietly and behind the scenes Microsoft has been pushing something called 'Common Core' If you haven't been following the political debate you probably don't know much about this. But on its face its a set of standards for national education. In theory this would be a good thing. In practice however it is one of the worst things imaginable. It is already causing teachers to resign in protest, and it is a system that will ruin a child's imagination. Why? Profit.

Chief among the problems with Common Core is a data gathering apparatus that makes the Xboxone look like a fart in the wind. If you think i'm joking look at the recent incident in Florida that involved the involuntary and in my opinion illegal iris scanning of elementary school students. That isn't even directly associated with Common Core. But trust me that would not even be considered an appetizer.

One parent, Tammy Slaten, explained that when she started informing herself about the curriculum she sent an email to other parents in her child’s class.

To her shock, she was “called to the principal’s office” where she was told to stop, and to not ask the teachers what they think. More than that, the principal allegedly told her that they are state employees and whether Common Core is “good or bad,” it is their priority.

This was taken from an article on theblaze.com

Not sure where people here fall on the political spectrum but i'm trying to make a larger point. There is good and bad with what the Xbox One wants to achieve. In THEORY it works to enhance the entertainment experience.

However in Practice it is potentially something else entirely. The ultimate device for Big Brother. And one step closer to a police state.

Then there is the current state of affairs in Government. To say it is out of control would be an understatement. Actions taken since 2001 (i'm beating both parties over this) Have only degenerated worse and worse to allow what we have right now. Reporters being threatened. Free speech suppressed. The IRS used as a political WEAPON by a sitting president. Google being forced to give up hundreds if not thousands of private emails. (not that they didn't scan them themselves already to boot.)

We live in a time and age where each of us is more responsible than ever for their own security. Both physically and electronically. The Xbox One is one thing that should never be taken off the shelf. The games could be cool, the features could be great. But the price you pay for them far outstrips any entertainment value you might ever have. Even if it went for one penny.

The entire Time article is worth reading if anyone is seriously considering buying this.

My personal opinion anyone who is should look instead to using that cash to upgrade your PC and get PC games. The Xbox One is a step in the WRONG direction. And it needs to go the way of the SegaCD

[Lyrai]

That huge rant and not one substitution of $ for the S in Microsoft. Incredible.

[Native Jovian]

Holy sensationalist fearmongering, Batman!

[Clefairy]

Holy sensationalist fearmongering, Batman!

You know, a few years ago I'd have agreed with you.

Then the PSN attack happened, and we found out, among other things, that Sony had been storing its customers' passwords as plaintext.

Microsoft has a long history of boneheaded decisions and poor implementation. They eventually get things right, but it usually takes them at least a year to do so. The privacy angle is a legitimate concern.

[Crowbar Man]

The Xbox One is a step in the WRONG direction. And it needs to go the way of the SegaCD

You leave the Sega CD out of this. It didn't do 'nutthin to ya!

[Hyperion5182]

Holy sensationalist fearmongering, Batman!

Look out a window. Everything i said concerning the Scandals is true. Bill Gates is one of the Driving forces behind Common Core its data-mining capabilities are VERY well documented at this point.

Fearmongering? I didn't even consider recruiting the recent security issues into my argument.

It is very easy at the moment for a hacker to look through a webcam online at your computer and see into the owner's house. Federal government can do it. It can be done through cell phones. It is very startling just how EASY it is to do.

I have used nothing but FACTS in my arguments. That isn't fearmongering, SOPA woke me up politically. And i've been on this stuff ever since.

The level of loss of privacy and your rights is not something to be ignored and it is not something to be allowed. If this console launches as currently advertised it is a purchase only the truly oblivious would ever make.

I bring up these concerns so that other users are aware of just what they may be getting if they actually purchase one of these. And if you're only going to fire back with 'fearmongering' without attempting to refute any of my FACTS? Go somewhere else. That kind of BS isn't what this thread needs.

On one other issue:

The Sega CD was a good concept but it got trumped and made irrelevant. The XboxOne needs to have the same happen to it.

[Gario]

It is very easy at the moment for a hacker to look through a webcam online at your computer and see into the owner's house. Federal government can do it. It can be done through cell phones. It is very startling just how EASY it is to do.

How easy is it, exactly, to use my webcam from another location? I would like to get startled, or at least learn the secrets of using other people's webcams against them.

[Ramaniscence]

Check out that place in Utah DHS just opened up. This forum, and all others are being monitored for EVERYTHING.

Quietly and behind the scenes Microsoft has been pushing something called 'Common Core' If you haven't been following the political debate you probably don't know much about this. But on its face its a set of standards for national education. In theory this would be a good thing. In practice however it is one of the worst things imaginable. It is already causing teachers to resign in protest, and it is a system that will ruin a child's imagination. Why? Profit.

Chief among the problems with Common Core is a data gathering apparatus that makes the Xboxone look like a fart in the wind. If you think i'm joking look at the recent incident in Florida that involved the involuntary and in my opinion illegal iris scanning of elementary school students. That isn't even directly associated with Common Core. But trust me that would not even be considered an appetizer.

This was taken from an article on theblaze.com

Look out a window. Everything i said concerning the Scandals is true. Bill Gates is one of the Driving forces behind Common Core its data-mining capabilities are VERY well documented at this point.

It is very easy at the moment for a hacker to look through a webcam online at your computer and see into the owner's house. Federal government can do it. It can be done through cell phones. It is very startling just how EASY it is to do.

I have used nothing but FACTS in my arguments.

I bring up these concerns so that other users are aware of just what they may be getting if they actually purchase one of these. And if you're only going to fire back with 'fearmongering' without attempting to refute any of my FACTS?

Would it kill you to source like...I don't know, any of this? Telling people to go look up information themselves doesn't prove anything to anyone.

[Calpis]

I'll echo rama's statements. You saying something is a fact doesn't make it so. Also, I've looked up common core stuff before because I stumbled upon it in the past. I couldn't understand what the fuss was about. But that's neither here or there.

I don't really share your view of the level of privacy concerns with the always-on Kinect, but I'll agree it's something that I dint like about the system, to a lesser degree. Afaik, Kinect menu controls are finicky and I wouldn't want that to be the only, or required way to navigate menus.

[Native Jovian]

The privacy angle is a legitimate concern.

Well, yeah. I didn't mean to imply that it wasn't, though looking back that's certainly the impression I gave. No, it's certainly reasonable to be displeased with the idea of an always-on internet-connected camera in your living room; what I object to is a Glenn Beck style conspiracy theory rant about the evils of society methodically taking over all aspects of our culture.

This was taken from an article on theblaze.com

Oh, well, there's your problem.

[Cerrax]

How easy is it, exactly, to use my webcam from another location? I would like to get startled, or at least learn the secrets of using other people's webcams against them.

It is fairly simple....If you can get the user to click on something that voluntarily opens their machine to install malware. This is usually achieved through ads, download links, and other deceptive methods to get users to click on it. Even then, it can be a crapshoot. Many browsers have options to alert you when a site is attempting to download or install software, and any anti-virus and anti-malware worth a damn can catch this too. Unless the program being deployed is decently clever, it's not going to make it through anti-malware, operating system security, and firewalls.

But since XBox LIVE is a fairly closed system (closed in that only XBoxes can really interact with it, and even then, nothing is published without Microsoft's approval) heavily monitored by Microsoft, it's highly unlikely any such link would exist within the network unless Microsoft was the one who put it there. Somehow, I don't think that would be very good PR if somebody found out MS was loading their own devices with spyware.

Edited June 4, 2013 by Cerrax