Star Wars: The Force Awakens (Spoilers Inside!)

[Malaki-LEGEND.sys]

One thing I've never really understood, especially after re-watching the entire saga before watching The Force Awakens, is the general apathy towards the prequels, and, even more perplexing because I thought it was part of the sacred cow original trilogy, Return of The Jedi. I'm sure there has to be some actual reasons other than Jar Jar Binks and ewoks, but I can't really see 'em. I've heard people railing on the acting (in the case of the prequels), which seems legitimate, but then, I was more interested in the overarching story than anything else I guess.

I mean, I greatly enjoyed The Force Awakens despite my problems, but the prequels had a lot more balls than Episode VII by far. In the case of RoTJ, it seems like everyone just saw the "It's A Trap" episode of Family Guy and decided it was cool to hate on it or something. I don't remember ever seeing that much apathy towards it.

 

[Mirby]

To me it sounded like when Finn said he was in sanitation, it more meant janitor. As in, he cleaned up the place and didn't see battle until Jakku. Sure, the First Order may not have tried to hide their brutality, but it seems like until his first visit to Jakku Finn was either cooped up being brainwashed for a life of being a Stormtrooper or cleaning up Starkiller Base while it was being built. 

[AngelCityOutlaw]

1 hour ago, Malaki-LEGEND.sys said:

One thing I've never really understood, especially after re-watching the entire saga before watching The Force Awakens, is the general apathy towards the prequels, and, even more perplexing because I thought it was part of the sacred cow original trilogy, Return of The Jedi. I'm sure there has to be some actual reasons other than Jar Jar Binks and ewoks, but I can't really see 'em. I've heard people railing on the acting (in the case of the prequels), which seems legitimate, but then, I was more interested in the overarching story than anything else I guess.

I mean, I greatly enjoyed The Force Awakens despite my problems, but the prequels had a lot more balls than Episode VII by far. In the case of RoTJ, it seems like everyone just saw the "It's A Trap" episode of Family Guy and decided it was cool to hate on it or something. I don't remember ever seeing that much apathy towards it.

 

I enjoyed the prequels, but my problems with it are as follows:

- Arguably the most mysterious and badass villain, Darth Maul, had next to no lines and was killed right away. I can still remember when the movie was coming out how everyone was pretty excited about this Sith and it wound up being really anti-climactic.

- They tried to make the force all scientific and stuff. I liked it better when it wasn't.

- The fights and dialogue are at times way too cheesy even by Star Wars and other fantasy film standards. (Yeah, Star Wars isn't sci-fi, I said it. Fight me)

- CGI. Possibly the biggest complaint about the prequels was that they relied more on CGI than practical effects that the series is known for.

- "She's lost the will to live" in Revenge of The Sith. Really, George? Like wtf kinda excuse is that. The droid may as well have said "Padame's plot armor has been stripped away at the request of Mr Lucas so she simply must die."

- Virgin-birth Anakin. For religious symbolism/parallel points and so we don't have to explain who Anakin's father was. Darth Plagueis supposedly created him, but my bet is that Anakin's mom was a party girl. 

- NOOOOOOOOOOO!

 

[Palpable]

3 hours ago, djpretzel said:

greatness lies beyond competence & solid execution...

I read this in Obi-Wan's voice

[Palpable]

2 hours ago, Malaki-LEGEND.sys said:

One thing I've never really understood, especially after re-watching the entire saga before watching The Force Awakens, is the general apathy towards the prequels, and, even more perplexing because I thought it was part of the sacred cow original trilogy, Return of The Jedi. I'm sure there has to be some actual reasons other than Jar Jar Binks and ewoks, but I can't really see 'em. I've heard people railing on the acting (in the case of the prequels), which seems legitimate, but then, I was more interested in the overarching story than anything else I guess.

I have to give Lucas credit for trying something different. As fun as Ep 7 was, the prequels take more risks and are more innovative. Unfortunately, they also show you that that doesn't equate to good movies. The problems go well beyond acting (which, btw, I blame completely on Lucas, since Portman and McGregor have been excellent in other movies). The prequels have been analyzed to death, so I'll keep my opinion short. Even though I can see glimpses of a great story in Ep 1-3, it's told so ineptly as to render it worthless. I often give the same criticism to subs on OCR: the execution does not sell the ideas. I'd even say the more different and out-there the movie, the stronger the execution has to be in order to sell it.

[WillRock]

9 hours ago, Palpable said:

I have to give Lucas credit for trying something different. As fun as Ep 7 was, the prequels take more risks and are more innovative. Unfortunately, they also show you that that doesn't equate to good movies. The problems go well beyond acting (which, btw, I blame completely on Lucas, since Portman and McGregor have been excellent in other movies).

The acting was odd in the prequels. REALLY subdued. Half the acting is expressionless (Knightly and Portman as the queen in I sound so fucking monotone, computer speech has more expression than what they gave their lines) - this includes people like SAMUEL L. JACKSON so I 100% agree that was Lucas's meddling there. I think in some cases like Ewan McGregor's it worked (disagree he was bad in the prequels, he totally nailed Obi-wan imo and captured the essence of Alec Guinness's calm portrayal from the original trilogy, but I guess they're all a bit like that so thats the problem? I dunno.) 

But then you've got fucking Palpatine who hams it up and delivers what imo is one of the greatest villain portrayals ever, which quite honestly,elevated Episode III to a highly entertaining movie for me, at least compared to I and II. I'm curious if he just ignored Lucas and Lucas was like "ok I trust you" or if it was intentional to make him stand out more or something... really odd. 

[Slimy]

14 hours ago, Malaki-LEGEND.sys said:

One thing I've never really understood, especially after re-watching the entire saga before watching The Force Awakens, is the general apathy towards the prequels, and, even more perplexing because I thought it was part of the sacred cow original trilogy, Return of The Jedi. I'm sure there has to be some actual reasons other than Jar Jar Binks and ewoks, but I can't really see 'em. I've heard people railing on the acting (in the case of the prequels), which seems legitimate, but then, I was more interested in the overarching story than anything else I guess.

http://redlettermedia.com/plinkett/star-wars/star-wars-episode-1-the-phantom-menace/

http://redlettermedia.com/plinkett/star-wars/star-wars-episode-ii-attack-of-the-clones/

http://redlettermedia.com/plinkett/star-wars/star-wars-episode-iii-revenge-of-the-sith/

[MindWanderer]

On 12/19/2015 at 11:26 PM, Geoffrey Taucer said:

3) There were a lot of smaller details that pulled me out of the experience. For example, the fact that, after escaping Jakku, out of all the mercenaries, New Order troops, resistance, scavengers, thieves, and smugglers in the galaxy, they just happened BY COINCIDENCE to run into Han and Chewie (had they had so much as one line, ONE MEASLY LINE explaining why Han and Chewie happened to be there, it wouldn't have bothered me, but no). Or the fact that the galaxy is apparently so small that people on the surface of a planet in one star system can -- with the naked eye -- witness the destruction of another star system. Or the fact that Han had apparently never tried Chewie's crossbow before in all the time they've been fighting together, but decided to try it randomly in the middle of a battle.

There was exactly one measly line explaining it.  Han said something like, "If we were able to find the Falcon, so can the First Order."  It implied that Han had indeed been looking for it all along, even taking a detour from his current job to go intercept it shortly after it took off.  Witnessing exploding planets many star systems away--in real-time, no speed-of-light issues--was a pretty big gripe of mine, too.  The bowcaster gag was insignificant and funny; worth it IMO even though I've seen that complaint before.

On 12/22/2015 at 1:22 PM, Hollow said:

If I have to accept that his origin story was bland for me, then that's what I'll have to do.  BUT, for now, I don't want to do that.  I just realized the parallel of Kylo Ren, being born from two 'good guys,' raised by good guys but ends up becoming bad, with Finn, who was raised, molded, conditioned by 'bad guys' but ends up becoming good.  We know more about the history of Kylo Ren but we know very little about Finn's history, other than he was first a baby and then a Storm Trooper.  It's entirely possible that they won't come back to it again, and I'm thinking too much about it, and I'll just have to accept that.  But I think it'd be interesting if his backstory has more significance.

I actually really like the contrast as-is.

Kylo Ren, the son of two heroes, trained by another hero, becomes a villain.

Finn, the son of no one in particular, raised and brainwashed by villains, becomes a hero.

I'm hoping the two get to talk out that contrast later on.

On 12/25/2015 at 5:28 PM, Neblix said:

The prequels rely on his midi-chlorian count to convey his force sensitivity. While we probably don't like the scientific treatment of the force in the prequels, it is still true. There's nothing similar said for the others, though. Additionally, I'd not really call either Leia or Kylo Ren a strong force user. Leia has latent force potential, but it's never developed. Ren is clearly weaksauce, not because of his sensitivity, but because of his state of mind. If you notice, he's very oblivious in the movie; clouded by his anger when things don't go his way. It's why he bodies a Chewie blast, also apparently in the book he is actually feeling incredibly tormented (and distracted) after he kills Han. So I guess they both could be strong, and Ren probably will get stronger, sure.

It kind of bugged me that Leia got no Force training in the last 25 years.  She knows she has the talent, did she never think it would be a good idea to do something with that?  Luke was ready enough to train new kids, he really ought to have taught Leia a little.

On 12/25/2015 at 1:10 AM, Mirby said:

Also variety in biomes was nice. Original movies had just ICE PLANET and FOREST MOON and DESERT PLANET. I mean there was some variety but it seemed like the whole planet was one biome, whereas here we had a snowy forest, which was refreshing. 

I felt this was typical fail, actually.  Starkiller Base was all snowy forest, except for the metal cravat.  The others were Desert Planet, Lush River Forest Planet, Megalopolis Planet, Island Archipelago Planet.  Seen from space they're literally just one texture from pole to pole.  No evidence of arctic or tropical zones whatsoever.

Oh, but I did really like that they named it "Starkiller."  Sure, it uses stars to kill, but there could have been a better name if they hadn't wanted to use that as a callout to obscure aspects of series lore.

On 12/26/2015 at 6:29 PM, Mirby said:

Yeah, the Stormtroopers were certainly more capable this time around. Which was nice. I mean how did the Empire have such a hold when their troops couldn't hit the broad side of a barn? At least these guys know what they're doing.

Also, that Riot Control Trooper was a great design in general.

I felt like the Riot Control Trooper came out of nowhere, though.  There should have been one somewhere earlier in the movie.  As it was, it looked like this one random stormtrooper suddenly had a melee weapon just to give Finn someone to fight (and explain why Finn knows his way around a melee weapon at all).

20 hours ago, Anorax said:

Fun fact, it isn't just a "visual touch" for the unstable appearance of the lightsaber.  According to this (which, Lord knows could be a simple fake fabrication born of the internet), the crystal itself is cracked and is close to overloading, which gives the blade the jagged appearance. It also explains why the crossguard blades are there: basically, they're lateral exhaust vents to prevent the crystal from going boom.

Kylo Ren is basically a tryhard hipster who's trying too hard to copy his idol while using an outdated lightsaber design because muh aesthetics.

I felt a little different about it, but liked it just the same.  From the trailers, I thought it looked dumb and impractical.  Knowing it was made by an emo teenager who was just trying to make it look cool but couldn't build it well enough to stabilize the blade explained everything.

18 hours ago, djpretzel said:

I suppose the question then becomes, was the First Order really going to pains to hide their brutality, and if so, why? Didn't seem like it, to me... which means that, even in sanitation, it seemed like he would have had an inkling of their general killyness & slaughterizing, no? ...also seemed weird that Kylo was going around using the force like it was going out of style during that initial attack, and yet when Han later talks about the force being "all true" it comes off as some kind of revelation? Wasn't quite clear on all of that... but it didn't matter much. None of the many nitpicks (valid or invalid) are super-critical, regardless, and even in aggregate they don't represent a serious problem, at least to me...

So yeah, just saw the film for the first time, tonight. Unfortunately, I missed about 20 minutes towards the beginning because I was sick, so I certainly need to see it again. And, from seeing the majority of the film, I can definitely say that it's a film I WANT to see again, unlike the prequels.

It's funny, I'm not sure if folks remember, but when each of the prequels came out, there was a honeymoon of about a week in which people were convinced of some degree of greatness, or at least non-suckiness... as time passed, that certainly wore off, and we slowly came to understand how truly compromised the franchise had become.

This movie was good. It didn't feel like a return to the greatness of the original trilogy (yes, including RotJ), it didn't feel like a complete purging of all the flaws that so flagrantly marked the prequels, and it didn't honestly feel like the BEST Abrams is capable of. BUT, for the first time in a looooong time, we've got a new, WATCHABLE Star Wars film... and that makes me happy. If I had to put a number to it, I'd say 7/10. If I had to name-drop a recent science fiction film I enjoyed more, I'd say Guardians of the Galaxy. Yeah, I said it And here's the thing... TFA feels like an acknowledgement of the soullessness of the prequels and an attempt to address that, but it also feels like too cognizant/self-aware an attempt. Guardians of the Galaxy feels like legit heart & soul, to me - intro gets me in the feels, as does the callback to the intro towards the end. Again, we're in the realm of personal opinion, but I just didn't find myself caring much about Rey's family, or Finn's anything... but it WAS clear to me that material was being presented that to some extent would at least make me consider caring... which I suppose is something. Here's the other thing: it was one thing to have the death star rebuilt & destroyed a second time in the original trilogy... but AGAIN!? This felt plain old empty to me; I like that the movie feels comfortable in the skin of its (only TRUE) ancestors, but running a land & air attack on a large, world-destroying sphere AGAIN? I know some of you are stoked about this movie & feeling that burn of nostalgia, but give it a month or two and revisit this question... at this point, the Empire, the First Order, and evil in general is more accurately just described as "Spherebuilding" - "What, they're building a large sphere capable of planetary destruction? AGAIN? Let's analyze the plans... again... and look for a catastrophic & complete design flaw... again!" At least many Bothans didn't die for the information, this time...

At any rate: good but not great. I feel like time & perspective will reel in some of the most exuberant fans, i.e. the Ansari brothers Evaluated relative to the prequels, a breath of fresh air... otherwise, something that tries pretty hard, does a pretty darn good job, and is fun to watch. Can't argue with any of that, but greatness lies beyond competence & solid execution...

Can't really break up quotes on the new boards, so:

1. When you're in an organization like that, how would you know what they're really doing?  It's not like they get to watch TV reports or anything.  Finn should indeed have had no idea of what atrocities the Order was capable of until he saw it firsthand.
2. I remember opening week of Episode 1 very well.  The group of friends I want with hung out in the lobby for a solid hour after watching it, tearing it to shreds.  No honeymoon period there. Episodes 2 and 3 were much better, but mainly by comparison.  Had I not seen Episode 1 first to lower my expectations, I'm sure I'd have had the same reaction to Episode 2.
3. Yeah, it was definitely a little too close to a carbon copy of Episode 4.  I guess they wanted to stay close to the source material to reclaim the fanbase, but it was overkill.

Speaking of that last point, the whole "First Order"/"Resistance" thing made no sense to me.  Clearly the First Order still has a ton of resources, maybe even more than before, which pretty much means they're still an Empire.  If they're not an Empire, then having a "Resistance" makes no sense.  And why didn't the Resistance join up with the New Republic?  Ideological differences?  Seems like a bad time for that.  Not sure how they've managed to keep going for over 30 years with no source of income or new personnel.

[djpretzel]

1 minute ago, MindWanderer said:

When you're in an organization like that, how would you know what they're really doing?  It's not like they get to watch TV reports or anything.  Finn should indeed have had no idea of what atrocities the Order was capable of until he saw it firsthand.

I'd agree if they didn't have things like FTL travel and if the organization in question was being clandestine because they cared about appearances. None of this seemed like it was the case, but the backstory on the First Order was so damn thin, I guess it could go either way...

1 minute ago, MindWanderer said:

Can't really break up quotes on the new boards, so:

Highlight the portion you want... you should get a "quote this" box you can then click. Works for me, at least

[MindWanderer]

11 minutes ago, djpretzel said:

I'd agree if they didn't have things like FTL travel and if the organization in question was being clandestine because they cared about appearances. None of this seemed like it was the case, but the backstory on the First Order was so damn thin, I guess it could go either way...

Sure, the rest of the galaxy would know.  But within it?  They have no mass media, no internet, nothing but whatever the First Order chooses to show them.  They don't even need a Great Firewall to control the information their troops have access to.  I can't even think how Finn would know, unless the more seasoned troops decided to tell him--and even if they did, if they were successfully indoctrinated, they wouldn't make it sound like it really was.

14 minutes ago, djpretzel said:

Highlight the portion you want... you should get a "quote this" box you can then click. Works for me, at least

Yep, that works when you're on the page you want, and I could have used it here.  Wouldn't work if you wanted to do it with multiquotes on different pages, though.

[Mirby]

1 hour ago, MindWanderer said:

It kind of bugged me that Leia got no Force training in the last 25 years.  She knows she has the talent, did she never think it would be a good idea to do something with that?  Luke was ready enough to train new kids, he really ought to have taught Leia a little.

I dunno, I'd imagine she might use it a bit too freely whenever she argued with Han.

"Look, Leia, Chewie and me just need some time away okay?"
"You're not going anywhere."
"We're not going anywhere."

[Neifion]

Coming out of carbonite for this one.

I'm not going to go all point-for-point here, but honestly, I just felt it was okay. Acting was pretty good, dialogue was pretty solid, story was familiar but overall passable. My problem is mainly that, besides seeing really cool puppetry and real locations, it didn't excite me much. It seemed like safe, paint-by-numbers, committee filmmaking. A few new concepts here and there, but nothing that really pushes the series forward in a way big enough.

My biggest disappointment by far was the music. I was hoping for a return to melodic form for Williams, yet even the prequels had much more memorable themes (I always liked the Trade Federation march and Duel of the Fates, of course). The Phantom Menace also had a lot of nice, warm string cues centered around Naboo and Anakin's home. TFA had a nice motif in Rey's theme, although it sounded more at home in a film like Memoirs of a Geisha. Speaking of which, I feel like Williams hasn't pulled out a memorable score since Geisha, and a truly great one since Jurassic Park.

Still, it was pretty fun overall.

[Nabeel Ansari]

23 hours ago, Malaki-LEGEND.sys said:

One thing I've never really understood, especially after re-watching the entire saga before watching The Force Awakens, is the general apathy towards the prequels, and, even more perplexing because I thought it was part of the sacred cow original trilogy, Return of The Jedi. I'm sure there has to be some actual reasons other than Jar Jar Binks and ewoks, but I can't really see 'em. I've heard people railing on the acting (in the case of the prequels), which seems legitimate, but then, I was more interested in the overarching story than anything else I guess.

tl;dr i explain why I think the phantom menace is bad just continue scrolling

I think perhaps I hold a slightly different opinion. I thought The Phantom Menace was incredibly poor largely because it did not ever, at any point, ask the viewer to invest their emotions into anything that ever happened. We start with Trade Federation negotiations (for some politics we're asked to care about in the crawl), see the Jedi are pretty pro at running around using Force speed and using lightsabers to melt doors (meanwhile the commanders are completely incompetent at using basic security procedures to kill people when you have them running around in YOUR facility), fall down to Naboo after Obi Wan delivers probably the worst joke I've ever heard in a Star Wars movie (the negotations were short. yeah. great. Even Qui Gonn is like "wow, what the fuck man."), Naboo gets taken over (okay, seriously, I didn't even know Naboo got taken over until I got older and watched it again, that's how fast and gentle it was treated) by droids and the federation, Obi and Qui Gon go to Gungan's home, plead for transportation and then wittily win Jar Jar's life, return to Naboo, grab the queen, run a giant trade federation blockade, and land on tatooine.

Let's take a break, we're very far into the movie. Who is the main character here? Is it Obi Wan? A likely candidate, but we've watched all of this happen without really understanding what Obi Wan's struggle is. Is he... trying to become a Jedi knight? Is this a test of his might, or courage, or pressure in the field? We've no clue. Is it Qui Gonn? He seems like he has all of his shit together. All of it. The Queen? No. Let's roll with Obi, since we knows he's important and related to the originals.

Next we look for some ship parts, and... we find a child labor kid in a shop. Qui Gon takes an interest in him, he invites them for dinner and talks about pod racing. Then they find his midi controllers are absurd, and they want to take him from his mom to ask the council if they can maybe train him.

So... maybe Anakin is the main character. His name is Skywalker. Never mind the fact that we're so far into this movie it's way past the point to be introducing central emotional conflicts, but since there weren't any before I guess better late than never. So we have to whole pod racing thing, and it's actually really good. Anakin wins, they take him from Tatooine. He's pretty sad to leave his mom, to leave his home planet to potentially join some cosmic religion he's only dreamed about before. Of course, that emotion is only addressed for like 5 seconds.

Wait, so is Obi Wan just a side character now? Anakin entered the scene and suddenly Obi Wan's journey to become a Jedi knight is tossed out of the spotlight so we can focus on what happens to Anakin. What little investment you had in him is now worthless.

When at Coruscant, we're bludgeoned to death with more politics, and the Council doesn't want Anakin to be a Jedi. Then a whole lot of emotionally nothing happens, and then they plan to take back Naboo using the Gungan's help. They start the invasion, Duel of the Fates happens while Anakin flies around in a Naboo fighter in autopilot managing to destroy an entire Trade Federation ship from the inside out. We never see any other characters get shot down; that scene where Luke realizes the severity of the situation he's in compared to flying with his friends back on Tatooine when Biggs gets killed in the Death Star run? Too much character work there. Strip it down. Have him spinning around with R2D2 complaining instead. Qui Gon dies in Duel of the Fates, we actually get a small twang of some feeling because our badass just died on screen while the character we sort of cared about in the beginning now suddenly has his central conflict back again (his ability to triumph as a measured Jedi Knight). He kills Maul out of anger, Trade Federation loses, there's a big parade. We get told about the rule of two for Sith. Movie over.

It may seem like I glossed over important dialogue/scenes, but... there aren't really any. All of the dialogue in this movie purely serves to advance this need for a story conflict that ends up killing Qui Gon Jinn who is by the way the coolest Jedi Master ever, and needs way more screen time and his own story, making Obi Wan the only available (and inexperienced) person wanting to train him. This movie is designed and written purely as a mechanical means to make the originals have a filmed backstory. The Phantom Menace works as spectacle, for pod racing and the duel of the fates. It doesn't function as a story, though. No one learned anything. No one changed. A whole lot of political things happened, and the movie showing them didn't do much more for us than simply reading what happened on paper. We also have absolutely no inkling of what drives Anakin to become Darth Vader in the future, other than if you're really fastidious and conjecture that it's because he attaches to Padme (but like... he's way older when he turns, so that's extrapolating, A LOT). If Star Wars is so much about destiny and the will of The Force, and we're viewing this as a PREQUEL, a story that explains what happened BEFORE to contextualize the NOW, it should contain narrative traces of the central thematic idea that motivates the need for the story in the first place (which is the birth and death of Luke Skywalker's father and the rise of the Sith Lord Darth Vader). For example, the flashback scene in The Force Awakens gives us an inkling as to how Luke Skywalker's Jedi Order fell, as well as snippets of dialogue by various older characters. We know what's going to be explained later, we know kind of what happened. Because that's going to be the central theme of the movies, at least very heavily in the next one.

I can go on about this, in more detail if requested. I just don't want to go that crazy on this thread. Feel free to continue the chat on PM.

[Brandon Strader]

The article we've all been waiting for:

http://www.thewrap.com/inevitable-star-wars-the-force-awakens-backlash-as-critics-fans-turn-on-reboot/

 

[Devyn]

I was freaking blown away by this movie today.  I loved how it was much more gory and graphic than the previous movies.  That scene where it shows a couple of planets being nuked by the First Order's death ray were especially over the top.  Also, I loved Rey and Finn. 

I'm just wondering how those two characters will develop.  Rey is obviously more powerful than Finn at this point, and can even wield the lightsaber like a pro, and use the force.  I love Rey, but I also want to see how powerful Finn comes.  Will he be the one to wield the saber in the next run?  It seems to me that Rey is more at home with her staff, but she did not mess around with the saber either.

[AngelCityOutlaw]

3 hours ago, Brandon Strader said:

The article we've all been waiting for:

http://www.thewrap.com/inevitable-star-wars-the-force-awakens-backlash-as-critics-fans-turn-on-reboot/

 

"The voices of dissent are greatly outnumbered, however"

It seems to me, especially with those Twitter posts, the "inevitable backlash" is coming from people who were probably naysayers from the moment the film was announced - before anything was known about it.

[Nabeel Ansari]

Half of said "brutally honest list of 40 plotholes" was also straight-up over-analysis (and a few others were actually explained in the movie and the person simply didn't pay attention, like "how did the monsters get loose?!" It showed Rey release them by accident.). The movie has problems, but not that many problems. Again, if you rally around a complaint about a gag (Every original trilogy Star Wars movie was funny) where Han Solo tries out Chewie's bow caster, I've filed you under "complaining just to complain".

[Garpocalypse]

So thanks to this movie, and the steam sale, my productivity lately has been shot as i've been replaying 12+ years of Star Wars games. KOTOR and the first Jedi Academy are some of my favorites but I would give my left nut for Star Wars Galaxies to come back.  (so far SWGEMU is nearly complete but beta has been ungodly slow)

Concerning the movie, the only significant gripe I have is the complete lack of development on Finn's decision to revolt and whatever conformity programming the storm troopers endured.  Did watching someone in front of him die suddenly make him wake up in the same way the Black Mages in FFIX did? Were all of the other Stormtroopers brainwashed or did they follow willingly?  Or did Finn just say "screw it i'm out"!  If the latter is true, developing sympathy for the rebellion via watching a rebel shoot your friend in the face seems like an unusual plot device.  

There was a ton of potential to suggest that Finn was mentally stronger than he was initially portrayed and to not add a few extra lines or an extra scene to develop what the Stormtroopers go through seems like a lost opportunity. ...or maybe they relied on some piece of Star Wars lore I was never aware of.  

I haven't done a great job of keeping up with the thread so sorry if this was already addressed.

[AngelCityOutlaw]

10 minutes ago, Garpocalypse said:

Concerning the movie, the only significant gripe I have is the complete lack of development on Finn's decision to revolt and whatever conformity programming the storm troopers endured.  Did watching someone in front of him die suddenly make him wake up in the same way the Black Mages in FFIX did? Were all of the other Stormtroopers brainwashed or did they follow willingly?  Or did Finn just say "screw it i'm out"!  If the latter is true, developing sympathy for the rebellion via watching a rebel shoot your friend in the face seems like an unusual plot device.  

There was a ton of potential to suggest that Finn was mentally stronger than he was initially portrayed and to not add a few extra lines or an extra scene to develop what the Stormtroopers go through seems like a lost opportunity. ...or maybe they relied on some piece of Star Wars lore I was never aware of.  

I haven't done a great job of keeping up with the thread so sorry if this was already addressed.

To be fair, the movie is already over two hours and it could be difficult to squeeze too much more into it. 

I still think it's a believable scenario that he'd get out of there as fast as he possibly can. Armies are really really good at dehumanizing the enemy and a great amount of research has been done on PTSD and how normal people can become merciless killers pillaging towns and raping people when placed in a warzone. If you worked in sanitation and simply heard about all the "good" the First Order is supposedly doing, but then suddenly witnessed what is really happening out there in the war, and what YOUR people are doing, I think it's likely that you'd either partake or get out of there as soon as you can.

[Garpocalypse]

Good point but that's also what I am talking about.  There were too many questions that motivated Finn's change of heart and the mentioning of some sort of conformity training early on raised more questions as to what is really going on with the stormtroopers as a group.  The hole might be intentional and once the recent trilogy is complete we'll have the answers. Director's love doing that kind of thing.

[Anorax]

In regards to TR-8R, I've seen this floating around Tumblr recently, and it makes sense, even if it does happen to be yet another fan theory with no canonical base.

[Mirby]

That's, uhh, not a fan theory. I mean part of it is but the bullet points are, in fact, canon. We're not sure if it was, in fact, Slip who died on Jakku and smeared his blood on Finn's helmet. And we're not sure if it is, in fact, Zero or Nines who calls him TRAITOR outside the ruins of Maz's castle. Those two things aren't canon because they weren't clarified. But the parts from the book? 100% Grade A official canon.

[Bleck]

the prequels are good, everyone's just dumb

[Nabeel Ansari]

20 hours ago, AngelCityOutlaw said:

To be fair, the movie is already over two hours and it could be difficult to squeeze too much more into it. 

I still think it's a believable scenario that he'd get out of there as fast as he possibly can. Armies are really really good at dehumanizing the enemy and a great amount of research has been done on PTSD and how normal people can become merciless killers pillaging towns and raping people when placed in a warzone. If you worked in sanitation and simply heard about all the "good" the First Order is supposedly doing, but then suddenly witnessed what is really happening out there in the war, and what YOUR people are doing, I think it's likely that you'd either partake or get out of there as soon as you can.

So then (I'm playing devil's advocate here, I don't actually give a shit), why would Finn's commander tell Kylo Ren that his battalion is super well-trained and loyal? Was he lying? Did they just grab a guy from sanitation and stick him in the army, un-conditioned, un-brainwashed, despite the rest of the First Order being clone troopers?

 

Seems like the First Order has a lot of internal blunder and stupidity going on masquerading as people trying to be tough like the Empire but not actually.

 

...wait, maybe that's the point? It's not like it happens elsewhere in the movie...

[Kanthos]

I recommend people read this: it goes into detail on some questions that wren't answered in the film (director's cut, maybe?) but are in the official novelization.

On 25/12/2015 at 4:10 AM, Mirby said:

Also, did Captain Phasma die? Last we saw, they were gonna throw her in a trash compacter, but we didn't see if they actually did nor if she escaped before the planet went boom. And did they recover Kylo's body before the planet went kaput as Snoke ordered them or was he killed too? They left the fates a few villains rather unexplained, but I'm sure we'll get our answers in Episode VIII. 

All in all, I rather enjoyed it. Would watch again.

She wouldn't have been the first person to escape a trash compactor. Gwendolyn Christie's confirmed to be in VIII too, so who knows? She could of course be a different character.

It's assumed they did recover Kylo's body. It seems REALLY out of place for him to be a badass-in-training, have him kill Han Solo, and then die as the planet blows up; nothing would waste Han's death more.

 

Quote

3) There were a lot of smaller details that pulled me out of the experience. For example, the fact that, after escaping Jakku, out of all the mercenaries, New Order troops, resistance, scavengers, thieves, and smugglers in the galaxy, they just happened BY COINCIDENCE to run into Han and Chewie (had they had so much as one line, ONE MEASLY LINE explaining why Han and Chewie happened to be there, it wouldn't have bothered me, but no).

5) Rey kept pulling new skills and abilities out of thin air. Why could she suddenly use mind tricks which, up to this point, have only been used by skilled Jedi? Why could Rey, with zero training in the use of the force, all of a sudden use it more powerfully than Kylo Ren when pulling the lightsaber to herself? Why could she, after meditating for a couple of seconds, go toe-to-toe with Kylo Ren in a lightsaber duel?

Re 3): According to this, which sources the novelization, there was a beacon on the Falcon that turned on with the ship, though it was still coincidence/the force ("In my experience, there's no such thing as luck") that brought Han and Chewie to the right location.

Re 5): I think the first link I posted mentions it, but there's a theory that Rey's force awakening wasn't an awakening from nothing, but rather, she'd been training as a small child at Luke's Jedi academy, and somehow, she got rescued and had her mind wiped by the force to protect her. That frames VII as her awakening to things she already knew (and possibly developing in some of them, what with her being older than when she was trained and all). If she was Luke's child, which I think she is, this seems especially likely. Also, that puts her vision upon touching Anakin's lightsabre into more context: she wasn't seeing things, at least some of them, through the force; some if it could've been remembering. Her getting left on Jakku, obviously, but Luke sending R2-D2 off and a view of what was presumed to be the Jedi temple, and the Knights of Ren, those could've all been things she'd already seen.