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Schwaltzvald

The Dark Knight

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Spoilers ahead, obviously. The thread is over twenty pages long. I can't imagine anyone reading through it not expecting spoilers.

Some parts were kind of awkward, like when Batman falls off his bike. It's like, what? You're Batman. Do a cool trick. But after they caught Joker it was awesome.

Was that when he was going to hit the Joker? I think he just didn't want to kill him.

One last thing: why does Batman have to take the blame for the murders? Why don't they just blame it on Joker?

I'm trying to remember if it was even possible for the Joker to commit those murders. But yeah, it seems like it would make much more sense to pin it on him.

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If they had stayed consistent with the framework of the real-world they developed, it would've played out like this instead:

Dent spends two to three months in the hospital undergoing painful reconstructive surgery, with nothing to do but sit and think about that moment and the horribly scarred man he has become until his mind just snaps. As he does he realizes that it's Batman who failed to help Rachael, Batman who the Joker was after, Batman who didn't reveal himself and end the madness. And with that he decides to declare war on Batman.

Not only would that have made more sense, it would've been so much better of a character development. The man so willing to defend Batman that he would offer himself up as bait instead of forcing the real Batman to unmask does a complete 180 and begins a campaign to kill him, possibly even coming around to the Joker's side now that he's off the deep end.

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Dent spends two to three months in the hospital undergoing painful reconstructive surgery,

pretty sure the Joker blew up that hospital

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pretty sure the Joker blew up that hospital

And within the framework they established, Dent would've been the first one out. Probably shipped off to Metropolis under the watchful gaze of Superman.

That was my problem with the movie. So many convenient coincidences to get them out of a writing jam. When the Joker is on the screen, I didn't care because he was captivating in a psychotic way. The rest of the time...

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and harvey dent being shipped out of a hospital to one in a different city for no apparent reason right before it's blown up isn't a convenient coincidence

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So, after reading through this thread (well, a majority of the pages) I've concluded that, I'm one of the few people that thought the Joker was friggin hilarious. Heath played it with so much wrecklessness & glee, I couldn't help but enjoy every moment spent with him. Also, his reasoning was pretty spot on. Especially the conversation about a truck full of soldiers versus little old ladies.

Two Face, I found that entire arc captivating, especially when Batman saved him instead of Rachel. It was awesome, & gave weight to what happens in the charred building.

All in all, one of the best movies I've seen this century. The third movie, should they ever make it, is set up so perfect. You know Batman has to die in this "realistic" universe they set up.

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I've concluded that, I'm one of the few people that thought the Joker was friggin hilarious.

Everyone in the theatre I was at found the Joker pretty darned funny, but maybe us Midwesterners just have a twisted sense of humor (most likely inherited from our ancestors who learned to look at the funny side of things when oxen drowned in rivers and children died from scarlet fever and you could only carry back 100 pounds of meat from that 2000 pound buffalo).

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and harvey dent being shipped out of a hospital to one in a different city for no apparent reason right before it's blown up isn't a convenient coincidence

What do you mean no apparent reason? First there's the fact that he's the highest-value target in Gotham. They'd get him out as soon as he was stable, if for no other reason than to keep the Joker from targeting the hospital (ironic, isn't it?) And if they were stupid enough to keep him there, which they were, as soon as the Joker called in the threat on the hospitals, he would've been the first one out. They would've put him in the nearest Medivac chopper and flown him out of the city before a single civilian got out the door. None of this leaving one inept guard to get killed nonsense.

Edit: I also thought the joker was funny.

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First there's the fact that he's the highest-value target in Gotham. They'd get him out as soon as he was stable, if for no other reason than to keep the Joker from targeting the hospital (ironic, isn't it?)

The Joker was in prison, there was no reason to suspect anything else happening

And if they were stupid enough to keep him there, which they were, as soon as the Joker called in the threat on the hospitals, he would've been the first one out. They would've put him in the nearest Medivac chopper and flown him out of the city before a single civilian got out the door.

people can't just up and say hey we're bringing this dude to your hospital so uh leave a room open k? that is just silly there is procedure involved in these kind of things, procedure that takes more than - what was the time span in that part of the movie? less than 24 hours? sounds about right yeah

None of this leaving one inept guard to get killed nonsense.

The Joker is still an unarmed man; the cops had every reason to assume that a man with a gun was enough to watch him, just like in real life

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Okay, now I've seen this masterpiece twice, and it's making much more sense. Seeing the Joker cast as a sadistic, malevolent force, rather than just a mere super villain, has finally given me someone (bad) to look up to! It really is how he said it to the mobster: "Gotham needs a better class of villain, and I'm gonna give it to 'em!"

The action was great. The actors were near flawless (with Ledger being completely flawless), and the sound and music was highly praiseworthy. The Dark Knight is certainly the best movie of the year, and perhaps the best superhero movie ever (if I can ever push the original Spiderman out of my mind).

One question: Did the Joker lie to Batman to get him to go save Harvey, knowing that Batman would reflexively go after Rachael instead?

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Did the Joker lie to Batman to get him to go save Harvey, knowing that Batman would reflexively go after Rachael instead?

Yes. tencahcahca

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SPOILERS

One last thing: why does Batman have to take the blame for the murders? Why don't they just blame it on Joker?

That and the fact that Batman apparently killed (is this now under debate?) Two-Face after the film made a big deal about Batman not killing were two big flaws in the ending. Part of that disappointment is probably due to the fact that earlier in the movie Batman threw the one mob leader off a building from an apparently similar height and lived.

I could be off on how big that warehouse drop was. Any of the multiple viewing people have feedback on that?

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after the film made a big deal about Batman not killing were two big flaws in the ending.

That entire scene is one of the points of the movie. Is it more important for Batman to let Two-Face kill the boy if it means keeping his code? There has to be a line for villains to cross' date=' and at that point Batman didn't really have any other choice.

Part of that disappointment is probably due to the fact that earlier in the movie Batman threw the one mob leader off a building from an apparently similar height and lived.

Sal Maroni landed on his legs; Two-Face landed on his spine.

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Did the Joker lie to Batman to get him to go save Harvey, knowing that Batman would reflexively go after Rachael instead?

I thought the point of that scene was that Batman felt the future of Gotham was more important than his feelings for Rachel.

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SPOILERS

I'm pretty sure the Joker gave them the opposite addresses so whoever Batman cared about most would die. The beauty of it is, he wouldn't have to know which one it was beforehand - just switching the addresses would suffice.

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Well, when asked who he's going after, he says "Rachel." And I thought I recalled him looking panicked when he arrived on the scene to find Dent there instead. Just another Joker mind-screw.

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The Joker was in prison, there was no reason to suspect anything else happening

I may be wrong about the exact timing, but he gets out during that whole sequence of Dent being torched doesn't he?

people can't just up and say hey we're bringing this dude to your hospital so uh leave a room open k? that is just silly there is procedure involved in these kind of things, procedure that takes more than - what was the time span in that part of the movie? less than 24 hours? sounds about right yeah

Absolutely they can. That's a couple of phone calls. Medivacs are supposed to be fast because if they're not, people die. The only real difficulty is making sure the receiving hospital will have adequate protection, and you can work on that during the flight out.

The Joker is still an unarmed man; the cops had every reason to assume that a man with a gun was enough to watch him, just like in real life

I think the Joker had consistently proven that he was resourceful enough to deal with one man with a gun handily. He had just broken out of a police precinct after all.

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SPOILERS (although if you haven't seen it by now, it's kind of your own fault for coming in here)

That entire scene is one of the points of the movie. Is it more important for Batman to let Two-Face kill the boy if it means keeping his code? There has to be a line for villains to cross, and at that point Batman didn't really have any other choice.

Sal Maroni landed on his legs; Two-Face landed on his spine.

Two-Face methodically seeking out vengeance on single individuals crosses the line, but Joker causing rampant chaos and destruction while killing randomly in cold-blood doesn't?

Besides, Batman had gone out of the way to keep the villainous from dying, especially emphasized with the Joker. Since Batman saved Rachel after falling from a height far beyond Two-Face's (with enough force to cave in a car), the fact he didn't in a lesser fall felt.... contradictory. Knocking him off made perfect sense, but then not trying to keep him alive when we saw he could do it earlier? Not to mention Two-Face survived a car crash that supposedly killed Maroni.

If Nolan wanted a big deal over Batman killing someone, they didn't really play off of it in that scene. No "I tried". No "Oh God, Joker was right about me." Nothing, just "Joker caused just one of us to fall, the best of us. Blame me about those dead corrupt cops instead of the Joker, thereby screwing over our ability to work together in the future."

With all the great work they had put into the rest of the movie, the ending came off as lazy and without thought.

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Two-Face methodically seeking out vengeance on single individuals crosses the line' date=' but Joker causing rampant chaos and destruction while killing randomly in cold-blood doesn't?[/quote']

He had to choose between saving the boy and stopping Two-Face. Every other time, every other criminal, he could do both.

At that point, he had no other alternative.

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Alright, for any of you doubting the death of Two Face, I'm just going to post what I posted at Something Awful. There are spoilers, but I think that's a given.

It really wasn't that high of a fall. TwoFace got knocked out and they carted him off to Arkham. Gordon is all about doing that secret stuff. The funeral was for the martyr Harvey Dent. TwoFace lives.
If this were the rationalization, then why did Batman have to take the blame for Harvey's actions? Why wouldn't they just blame it on Two Face? Even if Two Face was still alive, he'd just tell everyone the truth. His ego wouldn't allow Batman to take the credit for his actions. What happened when the cops arrived and chased Batman away? Did Gordon say "take Two Face to Arkham?" No. He would have said "Harvey Dent is was killed by Batman, along with a few other people."

As for Two Face falling from the height. People have been using the fact that Maroni living from his fall to rationalize Harvey being alive too. Maroni landed on his feet. He was upright during his fall, so all the damage from the fall was in his ankles. Two Face on the other hand was pushed off of the building, not upright at all. He's not an acrobat either, he wouldn't be able to position himself properly in that little time. We never got to see how he landed, but from the way he was pushed, it's best to assume his back, which could be broken, along with his neck.

Harvey Dent/Two Face, is dead. If he were alive, Batman taking the blame would be pointless. What could they do with Two Face if he were alive? Take him to Arkham? Tell him to be quiet? Put him in a "soundproof cell" as someone mentioned earlier? That's laughable. He'd be screaming his lungs out telling everyone the truth, cheapening Batman taking the blame. Logically, it doesn't work. This may be a comic book movie underneath it all, but it's the most cinematic, non-comic book movie of all. Had it been any other movie at all, there wouldn't be any doubt to his death at all. Everything had been wrapped up nice and tight. Harvey Dent died a hero to the citizens of Gotham, and unknowingly, lived (and then abruptly died) the villain.

That's actually two separate posts by myself, but it works the same.

Edit: And yes, he landed on his back.

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He had to choose between saving the boy and stopping Two-Face. Every other time, every other criminal, he could do both.

At that point, he had no other alternative.

Apparently you didn't read the rest of that post.

Since Batman saved Rachel after falling from a height far beyond Two-Face's (with enough force to cave in a car)' date=' the fact he didn't in a lesser fall felt.... contradictory. Knocking him off made perfect sense, but then not trying to keep him alive when we saw he could do it earlier?[/quote']

I argue he could have done both easily and gave reasoning why.

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Spoilers yada yada

To people wondering why Batman saved Dent and not the girl, he wasn't trying to save Dent. Joker mixed up the addresses on purpose, it's a joke

Also, Batman just tackled Dent, he didn't mean to kill him or anything he just ended up falling. Also notice the coin landing face up, lucky side. Dent can still be alive or he can be dead, it's totally up to interpretation as of now

Batman doesn't kill, period, it doesn't matter what anyone does he will not kill under any circumstances

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Apparently you didn't read the rest of that post.

earlier in the movie he didn't kill the joker yadda yadda I read it

my point still stands - up until that point he did not have to take any drastic measures

I argue he could have done both easily and gave reasoning why.

yeah see the main difference here was at this point he was shot

That Dent was targeting Gordon and his family instead of Batman was pretty weak in its own right.

the bat saved his life, gordon did not save rachel in time

not to mention who knows whether or not he was going to go after batman afterwards

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