The Derrit

crowbar you're just arguing semantics, sidestepping valid points with 'i don't understand' and being like 'weren't you guys listening when i told you it works like this?' when it is clearly documented that whatever you're saying doesn't *actually* work like that. neither neblix or i are saying 'we hate ouya it should die in a fire' we're saying it's not a feasible business plan, and it has an infeasible production schedule. at this point we're both just arguing with your stupidity and plain inability to discern logic and rationality from real life. everyone who agreed with you has left the thread because you're making them look bad. dshu had plenty of fine points that while i was in disagreement with, i could at least respect. but even he's made reference to the fact that it's not foolproof/perfect/has flaws. as far as i can see damonz is gone because he probably realized that making up imaginary numbers and being like 'hmm this seems right' doesn't actually work in rational argument. and he at least stated that his feelings were opinions, which is all well and good. you just continue to say 'no it's going to work you guyz are teh dumbzors here's whie' while directly contradicting the few available pieces of hard evidence on the matter. just stop and be like 'well i hope it succeeds' and no one will have a problem with it. edit: what he's saying with the mojang thing is ouya hasn't proven that people want the game on their system, and they CERTAINLY haven't proven they can make good hardware. there isn't even a completed controller yet. let's say all 63,000 people who supported ouya wanted minecraft. minecraft has a little under 40 million users. 136,619 of them registered yesterday. the number of people who support ouya is less than half the number of people who registered minecraft yesterday. mojang isn't going to go out of their way to rebuild minecraft and find a way to make it compatible with the current pc version for what is a sliver of the game's current population.

crowbar i don't understand how you can possibly be this dense. straight up. this is like talking to a wall here. you're arguing imaginary points with neblix and i of what you thought we said, and not listening to the things we did say, while ignoring what ouya has actually publicly said and replacing it with your ideal version of what you think would be nice. this has essentially devolved to us debunking all of your points, and you being like 'i don't get your points, OUYA IS GREAT.' you're repeating yourself over and over because you don't understand the conversation you're in. i don't have the motivation to do a point by point after your last couple points, but i'll add a few things. 1. a cheap computer is a console whether you like it or not. 2. i don't understand how dense you have to be to imply neblix was saying that steam sells hardware. steam doesn't *need* hardware. for someone who seems to want to make babies with the indie scene this should have been mind numbingly obvious. 3. no. they should probably stick to doing that until they can afford to move up in the world. or just keep doing that. where is the issue there? is there some inferiority complex in the indie world about not being good enough to develop for a console? let me take time out before 4 to say the way you draw your conclusions is baffling. 4.on the ouya kickstarter. stop trying to say i'm goddamn wrong. you're wrong or ouya's wrong/intentionally lying. there's no way to spin this unless you want to look like a jackass. 5. yeah too bad you took out the part about 'bringing nothing new to the consumer,' which anyone with an ounce of awareness will tell you they did, in spades, since clearly you're (trying) to talk about the wii. not to mention even nintendo created the custom specifications for their system, ouya's just like 'fuck it throw in a tegra 3 and we're done' 6. splitting up my sentence in two to debate two separate points doesn't work honey buns. that little word 'while' means something. on top of that, there is a cheap console for indie developers to make games on. it's called a computer. and if that doesn't fit 'your' (read: ignorant) definition, what I suggest for someone trying to bring an inexpensive console for indie development is... DON'T DO IT. there's no future in making a console for a sliver of the gaming market, and the portion of the developing market that doesn't explicitly have to be good at their job. this right here is the only qualification i'll make. THERE ARE PLENTY OF GOOD INDIE DEVELOPERS. but there are plenty more who SUCK ASS and don't need to be able to put their games on a console to prove it. 7. stop talking about 'free ports.' ports are not free. to quote the PA again, "The OUYA will use a controller when most Android games are designed for the touch screens of phones or tablets, which is a problem. Games are either going to have to be designed from the ground up for the OUYA, or ported from other Android devices that rely on touch screen controls. Unless the hardware sells a few million units very quickly, neither option is going to be attractive to smaller, or even AAA, developers." 8. saying they've made 60k in sales is false. like i already mentioned more than 3/4 of the people who pledged have already paid for their console, and kickstarter is being used to fund the development. so 3/4 of their initial console sales is being developed at no revenue. they've made a *potential* 12 in sales, and 48k in revenue-free console giveaways.

also, quotes from that article: “If you want to develop a game for consoles with less gatekeeping than PSN or XBLA, I’m pretty sure that’s what XBLIG was supposed to be for, but people aren’t exactly going crazy over selling their games there. If openness is your main concern, I’m not sure what is stopping you from targeting the PC and selling games directly through your website. I personally believe that until you’ve got a high quality game on your hands, where you sell it or which gatekeepers you have to get past aren’t your biggest problems.” - Antichamber developer Alexander Bruce “My main problem with the OUYA is that it’s selling a dream: ‘The Console for Indie Developers.’ It’s primary selling points are that it’s cheap and developers can make games for it without buying expensive development kits. However, you can already get all that with a cheap PC and unlike the OUYA, the install base for the PC is already massive. The reality is harsh; we’ve seen what happens with open platforms. Look at Xbox Live Indie Games, where very few developers were able to make a living off of it and now the platform is dominated by knock-offs of popular games and wannabe Japanese softcore porn.” “Finally, the creators of OUYA are actively encouraging both free-to-play, all games must be ‘free-to-play’ although their definition is very loose and includes demos and purchase for full version, and hacking. Trying to get a significant portion of an audience like that to actually pay money for a game and not just spend all their time on free emulators for old arcade and video game systems could prove challenging." - Robert Boyd, developer of On the Rain-Slick Precipice of Darkness 3 and the symphony that ties it all together: "So not only is there no finished hardware, no service at the moment, no controller, and no games—although we’re being asked to take their word that they can create each of those things in eight months—but focusing development costs on an incredibly risky platform with a small installed base and features that make piracy all but given makes no sense for most developers who release games you’d like to play. It’s an environment that not only makes little sense for commercial development, in many ways it’s actively hostile to people hoping to create games for it." someone who GETS it. finally. last thing. reading this article he makes the very good point of ouya being like 'yeah there are soooo many people who want to develop for us. but it's like, a secret dude. if we told you we'd have to kill you.' sarcastic language aside, what's likely much closer to true is some people were like 'neat idea, if it works out maybe we'll make a game,' which is the gaming industry equivalent of telling that friend you don't really like 'yeah, if something is going on this weekend i'll let you know, for sure.' uhm... yes there is. though they're not facts (my definition of fact, not yours)

i feel like you must be trolling which is funny coming from me. people aren't that apathetic towards the event they're apathetic about not being able to see a stream of an event you're supposed to pay for in the first place. how that's unreasonable is beyond me. but given your postcount and your join date there must be a joke in here somewhere

i'm much more happy about that right there

that should do it.

fair. that's the truth, people do do that. but what people don't do is buy an ipad specifically to get the app optimized for a tablet. that right there is the important part. what i'm trying to get at here is that the purpose of the system isn't the problem (though it's hardly as groundbreaking as it's getting made out to be), it's the purpose of buying it in the first place. even if i were to concede to you that final fantasy iii is an exclusive, now there's two. and unlike the incremental upgrade from smartphone to ipad, this upgrade also creates the large tradeoff of having to be in front of the tv, not being able to take your game with you, and having no other functional use outside of gaming/entertainment (unlike an iphone or ipad which still has fully functional internet and phone services).

i suppose this somehow makes final fantasy III an exclusive game in your book? it's only been released on i dunno, multiple other systems by now. metal gear solid: twin snakes was a pretty bitchin' gamecube exclusive too. and mario 64 ds. best exclusives ever. this is more sarcastic than i like being but if you're trying to imply that final fantasy iii, even a repolished 3d version of it, is an 'exclusive' then you're deluding yourself. it's not. it's final fantasy iii. the game that came out over 20 years ago. i like square, but looking at their track record all that probably means is a higher resolution version of the ds release. Also DaMonz i think you need to revisit the definitions of the words 'imaginary,' 'speculation,' and 'fact.' and then go do some editing.

it *would* be free money except that who in their right mind is going to pay 100 dollars to play the same games they could have bought somewhere else? all of these small developers would have made these games anyways; being able to port them to ouya easily doesn't make ouya itself a smart idea. the only compelling argument there is for developers, except that developers are smart enough to know there aren't that many people who are going to put up 100 dollars for the opportunity to buy a port of a pre-existing game. this is what you just don't seem to understand; making a system and being like 'hey you can all port your games here for super cheap!' is not a selling point for buyers. unless there are NEW games that are GOOD, and they're significantly more visible/better quality than the standard market fare, where is this going to go? When was the last time a system came out, said 'hey we do absolutely zero new things for the consumer, and we're less powerful than the current generation. but the price tag is about 50 dollars less!' the only thing i can think of is the game boy micro, and that didn't go so great. all of the 'crazy awesome' innovations? they're not even recent. great, you can stream twitch tv. xbox streams every soccer match ever, along with practically every other sport, as well as netflix, amazon video, crackle, epix, espn (as aforementioned), hulu plus, syfy, tmz, fiosTV, Zune video, last.fm and more. everything you're saying is talking about how great this is for developers. which is great. but what does it do for the consumer? zero. new. things. whatever games these indie developers are making, they were going to make anyways. and put on steam. or xbla. or somewhere they would be played. now they can also put them on ouya. great! i actually searched the ouya kickstarter again today, and all of the other related searches were for indie games, for windows, mac, linux, iOS and (maybe) ouya. like that's literally what they say. unless there's distinguishing software there's zero pull for anyone to buy this system. because it really has no consumer merits on it's own. also, unrelated but the free-to-play model is hands down the worst model when it comes to positive in-game community development. forcing that on developers is not something i would do. but that's a pretty minor thing not really a make-or-break. edit: OH and other funny thing, i searched for ouya exclusive games, and there's one. literally, one. if you take out the prototypes part, this can be said of some of the worst global crises the world has ever seen, such as wars, the holocaust, anti-gay activism, organized crime and slavery. let me make clear i'm not comparing ouya to these things. what i AM saying is a decisive plan with motivated people does not a good idea make. ....

dude that's really good specs i'm surprised you're surprised. i'm also jealous you have your desktop. i miss mine it's at home. it's running really well on my out of the box laptop so that's a good sign too

so, three things to add here. 1. if they sell the system at a loss they're NOT going to make it back in game profits and licensing costs because the entire point of this goddamn system is to have really low licensing costs to give profit to the indie developers. that point is moot. you can't really play that one from both sides. 2. i've seen this in multiple places, ouya has said they're not looking for other investors outside kickstarter. they clearly had money before it happened but unless something changed they're not raising anymore after it. 3. four of the companies you listed i've even heard of before, and twitchtv and onlive literally have to do nothing except say 'okay you can stream from our website, just give us money when you do it.' that's not a large investment on their part. and namco is in 'active discussions.' kind of the same way every third party developer is in 'active discussions' with nintendo before not putting any games on their system. and four just for you crowbar, that was it. except you got all butthurt over me saying one of your favorite indie games was pointless. the issue being you completely missed the clear implication that we were talking about business, because you were too busy boiling over and crying that i insulted your favorite game, which i didn't even do. that was where the discussion devolved.

what you guys all gave me shit for and 'backpedaling on' is that from a business standpoint this system has no future. the idea of them finishing a new system home frame, having their 'hardware guy' (because apparently there's only one hardware guy) get contracts from several sources together to mass manufacture this machine, actually manufacturing the machine (which takes plenty of time on it's own), marketing the console so it actually has presence when it launches, and paying everyone it involves to do all of the things above? i'm no expert but i'm pretty sure that requires more than 9 months and 9 million dollars. and this sits on TOP of the fact that it's already entering a saturated market, which has similar things, either for less money i.e. this raspberry pi thing for hobbyists, or a better and more established distribution source, i.e. steam, xbl, or psn. and thinking about it, it kind of is a scam if they don't deliver because people gave 100$ in return for a console at launch. people gave that money for the promise of a system, not so they could develop a system and they could buy it later with more money. the more i think about it the less realistic it becomes for them to be able to do it, with that 9 million dollars they're manufacturing many of these systems at no revenue; they're using the money people paid for their systems with as investment money, meaning at launch day they're essentially giving away several thousands of systems for free. 47,124 of the people who pledged, out of 63,416, have paid for their systems in full. there will certainly be more people interested than just those who pledged for it, but more than half of their initial investors don't owe ouya another dime. how they would have done it with the initial 950,000 dollar pledge is even more what bothers me. that would have been literally impossible.

no, what's being said is it's unlikely they will deliver what they promise. in that they can't deliver a 100 dollar system by next march. they can probably deliver a 200 dollar system by sometime next year but that's not what they promised.

do they? i don't think it's a con but i do think it's negligent business to promise something at a price range and release date they in all likelihood cannot hold to. it takes the big 3 years to make their systems, how can ouya do it in 9 months? manufacture for market takes at least a third of that time.

sure but the initial impression is they're asking whether or not they're still made, not whether or not they can help with one. the answer is, by the way, yes as far as last year

so you don't have to

fine. i'll do it when i get back from dinner edit: done. also we should get someone to make a banner/sig for the front page of the thread so we look official that would be neat.

http://www.pcmag.com/article2/0,2817,2407046,00.asp

welp guess i was wrong woomp

i actually got it to work after awhile not sure why it didn't before. i'm on yaks bend by the way!

sooo i'm trying to log in, but it tells me that my account email doesn't exist. i tried every email i've ever had but none of them work. :/ also i will be The Derrit.6145 when it works.

are you sure about that...? i'm pretty sure i have a copy of it on my desk right now, and i know japanese isn't the native language of ubisoft...

...for what system? making a 3ds version of the same game would make zero sense. it's a 2d sprite game, adding 3d does nothing. and you can already play twewy on your 3ds anyways. i'm not so much defending square as i am saying 'where or how or why would they do that that makes even the beginnings of sense?'

thirty five billion dollar hat

yes i understand. but what you 'seem' to believe is just not true, because the idea of that timeline being like that is nearly a decade old. so they did *not* retcon anything a.k.a. your opinion of what it 'seems' like is incorrect. unless your use of the word retcon is implying that all the games should have been in order, which we've known they weren't since forever. i'm not trying to flame you that's just the truth. what you thought was wrong. it's okay. you probably just didn't know.