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I've seen it many times; people complaining about programs/plugins etc is too expensive.

I'm from Sweden, the home of Pirate Bay, and none of my friends would even think of paying for music or software as long as it can be found pirated. I know what your answers will be like "you have to pay the people that made it!", but isn't there anyone that can confess that you download it instead?

Don't you do it or is it too much of a taboo to speak of it? I don't know which country the OCR servers are in, but would it actually be illegal to link to eg. a torrent?

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OCR is based in the U.S., our copyright laws are pretty strict. In any case, the legality isn't so much the issue on these forums - it's simply against our forum rules to advocate piracy in any way, shape or form. You absolutely cannot post links to pirated software here. Many of us are in creative businesses and are personally impacted by piracy every day.

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There are doubtless people here who pirate, although no one admits it due to site policies and such.

My personal view is that it takes a lot of work to develop quality software (I'm a programmer myself, so I'm not just speculating about nothing here), and it seems hypocritical to ask for money for my software but expect to get everything I want for free. Also, I believe the underlying problem is that as the use of computers has spread, people have begun to believe that having the software of their choice at the prices they want is a *right*, which it is not. If I expected to buy a Jaguar for the same price as a Honda Civic, no one would take me seriously, as the Jaguar is obviously better engineered and I have a clear choice to buy it or not. Why people view software differently is beyond me (the analogy here is between commercial and free software).

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OCR is based in the U.S., our copyright laws are pretty strict. In any case, the legality isn't so much the issue on these forums - it's simply against our forum rules to advocate piracy in any way, shape or form. You absolutely cannot post links to pirated software here. Many of us are in creative businesses and are personally impacted by piracy every day.

I understand that, but I'm a lot at the biggest forum in Sweden, and it's kind of strange to see people here complaining about prizes :) They would nearly be laughed at in our forum. Sad but true.

To clarify, I'm absolutely not a big advocate of piracy!

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lol @ "I'm absolutely not a big advocate of piracy!" (emphasis mine)

back in my early days, I didn't have a problem with piracy, but since I'm now aiming for selling my works, working with music professionally, I prefer to have a legal copy of the software, not a pirate copy. Who knows what studio raids anti-pirate agencies are gonna do in the fuuuture... :D

Remember the word piration?

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Truthfully, I have only illegally pirated one piece of software: the Waves Diamond bundle, but I felt so bad about it since I absolutely LOVE the product and use it all the time that i bought one of their lower-end bundles (cuz I don't have the 2 grand needed to pay for the diamond bundle). Well, I had such a horribly shitty time getting it to install properly and not fuck up a bunch of stuff in the process that I felt that using the cracked version was worth the 700 bucks i spent. So yes, I am currently using a cracked version of the program i bought because it runs better... Go figure.

However, the people that are using all of the highest end products on the market that haven't paid for any of it should go suck some poo. I have literally spent thousands of dollars for all of my software and hardware and have all of the boxes on my shelf as trophies of said monetary suicide. Truthfully, I think thats part of the experience of music; working your way up from shitty software to better and better pieces of musical equipment to the point where you can do anything you want after years of wading through the stuff you've bought to help you out.[/self-righteous rant]

All-in-all, pirating stuff isn't the way to go if you want to establish yourself as a producer in my humble opinion.

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It's because a lot of the software out there isn't really meant to be accessible to casual bedroom producers who just want to play around. If it's simply one torrent away from their fingertips, of course they're going to get their hands on 5-gigaflop orchestral libraries.

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My personal view is that it takes a lot of work to develop quality software (I'm a programmer myself, so I'm not just speculating about nothing here), and it seems hypocritical to ask for money for my software but expect to get everything I want for free. Also, I believe the underlying problem is that as the use of computers has spread, people have begun to believe that having the software of their choice at the prices they want is a *right*, which it is not. If I expected to buy a Jaguar for the same price as a Honda Civic, no one would take me seriously, as the Jaguar is obviously better engineered and I have a clear choice to buy it or not. Why people view software differently is beyond me (the analogy here is between commercial and free software).

I think it's for two reasons:

1. Anonymity of the internet, which is enough to turn many otherwise decent people into raging shitheads.

2. The fact that when you steal software, you aren't directly taking something from someone, because software can be copied for free. If you stole a Jaguar on the other hand, whoever you took it from would be out one Jaguar as a direct result of your actions. Software piracy does hurt sales and consequently the paying users, but it's in a more roundabout way. I think the extra layer of abstraction makes it easier for people to silence their consciences.

I'll admit I did, in a few instances, use pirated software while I was in high school and college -- generally copies of friends or families' otherwise legit versions. I've kept legit ever since I got a real job, and I'm glad I have.

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the legality isn't so much the issue on these forums - it's simply against our forum rules to advocate piracy in any way, shape or form.

really? this place has changed. im not sure if it makes me happy or pissed, but a friend of mine* was banned at least a year ago from ocr forums for mentioning that he pirated software. welp :\

*spoiler: it was actually me

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personally im a big believer in "try before you buy". Sometimes I cant really get a feel for software from the demo. Sometimes there just isnt enough in the demo to know if you'll actually make good use of the software.

I download software, and use it for a little while. If it turns out to be something I will definitely use alot then I will buy it, if its software that I might use to make profit in the future (aka. Reason), then I will buy it.

Note: I have bought reason :D.

I know I would just hate paying big bucks for some software, and then finding out I hate it, or that it wont do what I wanted it for in the first place.

yup.. thats my stand.

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Piracy rocks. It has benefited Steinberg, Cakewalk, whoever makes Fruity Loops, Propellerhead, Native Instruments, Waves, pretty much EVERYONE who's software has been pirated.

Most people who pirate this stuff can't afford it, so they would never buy it anyway, and a good number of those who do pirate start buying the software after they grow to really like it (seriously, do you want to throw $800 away on software that you never used because the company doesn't offer a demo.... STEINBERG?). So piracy ain't all bad. Most people who pirate this shit in our community are between the ages of 14-21, they would never buy this stuff, not till they grow, mature and still have a need for it.

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Yeah, SnappleMan's spot on. After what I've seen, those who pirate games and software are usually young people who can't afford the real product yet. Testing/using does give a certain brand loyalty. I myself have discovered most, if not all of my favourite bands through downloading mp3. Now my shelves sport their whole discographies.

But on the other hand, I've read quite alot of BS pro-piracy stuff from people who never buy games, software or music legally at all. There are different types of pirates.

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Adolescents believe they're entitled to have everything they want for free. Most of them grow out of it, some of them don't. I've seen no shortage of this kind of immaturity around here.

At the same time I don't like being treated like a criminal, so I don't buy software that requires dongles or particularly invasive activation methods. I don't steal them in retribution, I boycott them.

cheers.

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Aaaaand who do we have to thank for annoying, cumbersome copy-protection schemes which make it inconvenient for legitimate users to install software? Pirates! Thank you, pirates.

Which makes cracking groups crack the software again, and then Steinberg starts adding dongles and shit, the cycle continues. It's actually not the pirates responsible for the needless copy protection, it's the companies who think adding more and more "protection" solves the problem, when in fact the cracking groups just crack the software again. Also, a lot of DAWs are way too much fucking money, though I can understand with all the licensing stuff that goes on, though there's relatively cheap or free software with about the same functionality available. Also, certain software that doesn't suck avoids this whole cycle by just being inexpensive and awesome. Granted, of course it's still pirated, but there's enough revenue there to ensure that every update is amazing. Waveform drawing? New Linux version? Fuck yeah. Why doesn't Steinberg or Cakewalk work on shit like that instead of stroking their dongles?

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but a friend of mine* was banned at least a year ago from ocr forums for mentioning that he pirated software. welp :\

And nothing of value was lost, because casually mentioning or even bragging about copyright infringement on a public forum is nothing short of fucking stupid.

It happens. No, we won't tell you how to get it, figure that out yourself. No, we won't tell you how to use it, because downloading means figuring that out yourself; that's fair enough, don't you think? If you're not stupid and you don't give up or even buy a book - which is a small cost compared to the actual program - you can figure it out and get good at it. Then, when you either get a job, earn money using it or whatever, you buy it. Everyone happy. Nobody likes the clueless idiot doing his best to stay idiot and asking for having their hand held. If you can't survive that, forget surviving in the world of music.

Don't mention it; that won't make it go away but it'll also not make any self-righteous assholes appear complaining about fat cat companies (except Waves, but there's lots of better alternatives for that, so you inflict it on yourself). Said assholes would most likely cry about injustice if I took their album and spread it around instead of paying for it, but the concept's not that different.

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Which makes cracking groups crack the software again, and then Steinberg starts adding dongles and shit, the cycle continues. It's actually not the pirates responsible for the needless copy protection, it's the companies who think adding more and more "protection" solves the problem, when in fact the cracking groups just crack the software again. Also, a lot of DAWs are way too much fucking money, though I can understand with all the licensing stuff that goes on, though there's relatively cheap or free software with about the same functionality available. Also, certain software that doesn't suck avoids this whole cycle by just being inexpensive and awesome. Granted, of course it's still pirated, but there's enough revenue there to ensure that every update is amazing. Waveform drawing? New Linux version? Fuck yeah. Why doesn't Steinberg or Cakewalk work on shit like that instead of stroking their dongles?

You right, it's not entirely the pirates' fault. That fact's recognized in my own buying trends, actually -- when I have the option, I buy the stuff without over-the-top copy-protection specifically so I can support those who don't use it (I use SONAR instead of Cubase mainly for this reason).

But still, I think I'm justified in being annoyed with pirates for participating in the copy-protection cycle. And also helping to drive up the cost of the software that I buy.

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I don't care for pirates who download the stuff, use it all the time and never buy it. It hurts the industry, and as someone looking to get into the game industry in the next few years, I wouldn't want people taking my work without compensating me for the time and effort it took to make it.

That said, I can understand the try before you buy argument. These programs are expensive, and often the demos do suck. I hated Reasons demo solely because it didn't leave me much time to really start learning the program, but the full program is great and I love working with it (it's a purchased copy for the record). If someone is planning to buy the program if they like it or delete it if they don't, then the people who made it are no worse off if the person hates it and better off if they love the program. There are two sides to it all, but I really can't stand the people who pirate anything with no intentions of ever buying it. When people spent a lot of time and money working on a program (or anything else) you don't have a right to have it for free unless they choose to give it to you for free.

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I just wanted to mention that it doesn't really matter if you make money at it; you should still pay for it if you use it. The try-before-you-buy idea is a great one that i frequently enjoy the use of, but if only the people who made money with the programs paid for them the industry would be financially screwed.

Most of the people using the software are hobbyists, like 95% of the users on here; sure the companies like to highlight the fact that pros use their software, but thats hardly their core demographic as far as sales go.

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Not to mention the latest wave of dongle-based protection is quite effective.

It's not any more effective than it was before, the problem for the pirates is that the leading cracking "team" (H20) has quit the scene. No new waves or steinberg products are going to be cracked until there's someone new to start hacking away at the new license protection. Though, the way I see it, if you're always trying to pirate the latest and "greatest" versions of this stuff and not even thinking of purchasing it, you're an asshole. At this point, there are so many older versions of FL, Sonar, Cubase etc. out there that I don't think new versions should be cracked. Use the old shit, that WAS state of the art 5 years ago, or pay the money to get the current wave of products.

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How has that changed? I just said it's against our rules to advocate piracy. That's always how it's been.

because i half-jokingly said something like 'or you could just pirate it :P'

you know, because i assumed most of you were at least a little cool and wouldn't go so far as to permanently BAN someone because they casually mentioned the act of pirating. not where to get it or how to get it, just the fact that it exists.

And nothing of value was lost, because casually mentioning or even bragging about copyright infringement on a public forum is nothing short of fucking stupid.

oh right because when someone gets caught it's usually because they mentioned pirating something on the fucking ocremix.org forums right?

another thing that refuses to change here: most of the forum members are gigantic faggots.

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