Heroes of Newerth

[bladiator]

Just because it was originally designed that way doesn't make it good. I think Chronos is a stupid hero, for example. He is laughably weak early on and gamebreaking later. He should be toned down. It's like the design decisions made in HD Remix. T.Hawk was considered to be the worst character in Super Turbo, but if he ever got in close (which was very hard), he basically won automatically. That's a stupid tactic, and not balanced. Dave Sirlin balanced this by taking away this auto-win loop but making him stronger overall, and the game is better for it.

All I'm saying is that DotA was designed by a bunch of hobbyists and amateur game designers who admittedly did a great job overall, but who also should not be unquestioned. S2 has a full staff and the resources to fix any design decisions in the original DotA that were holding the game back (for example, I think the concept of last-hitting and denying is kind of stupid and counter-intuitive, adding a needless layer of execution.)

I like what you're trying to get at, but as a long long time DotA player, I have to be reverant to what the original creators made. I mean, I understand that S2 has a full paid staff of people working on this game, but DotA went through WAY more revisions than I expect this game to ever see before it peters out (yes, I used peters). But I have to admit that I really don't like last-hit and denying very much either. That was a limitation of the game engine though, and not the idea of the map creators.

Also, I have quite a few things to talk about in this one now that I've been able to play some more.

I agree with the sentiment that Ophelia is crap. I don't know what this person was doing that totally owned whoever while using Ophelia, but I know that by the end game that I was using her, I just stood around and hit "R" for a group heal and then stood around and/or died for 120 seconds. Even if you go and round up two of the biggest baddest critters as your pets, by the end game, they just take part in the huge onslaught known as "AOE Ulti" and die in a few moments.

As far as the gain for ganking, this is also something I agree with zirc on. (zirc on, lol). I know that most times if a fight breaks out and I'm just standing in the vicinity later in the game (level 10+) I'm always expecting a level when someone on the other team dies. The amount of XP shouldn't level up that much just because you are killing "monsters" that are that high level. I don't care as much about the gold, but the amount of XP for hero kills, ESPECIALLY late game is ridiculous.

OK, I guess I'm done here. I was going to complain about how easy ganking is because of the river going all the way from corner to corner and how many places there are that you can weave through the forest areas and how none of this was in the CLASSIC DOTA, but I guess since I've just typed all this anyway, I'm done.

[Tensei]

Ophelia is only effective in midgame, really. Lategame she turns pure support. Three 1400 hp creeps that can chain-stun for 6 seconds total means you can easily set up ganks, provided you can micro well enough, as well as push towers really early.

She's not a lategame hero, but if played properly she can actually win the game (or at least take out a barracks) before it even gets that far.

Also, I like last-hitting. I prefer it to the alternative of sitting around and watching my hero auto-attack creeps for the first +/- 10 minutes.

[bladiator]

Also, I like last-hitting. I prefer it to the alternative of sitting around and watching my hero auto-attack creeps for the first +/- 10 minutes.

I don't remember the last time I got to autoattack for 2 minutes before I started getting harassed by the opposing hero. And I guess it's not so much the last-hit as it is the fact that I see these heroes that just run back and forth all day behind the creeps .. just click click click click click click click click click click *slice* money click click click click click click click click click click click click *slice* deny. They don't ever attack something otherwise because if they do then they might not be ready to swing on the very last hit for something. Sure, it's a strategy, but it just ... well, look at it this way. You're a big bulky STR hero, you come in, beat the crap out of creeps and try to pave the way to victory, while the other guy is just poking stuff at the last second for money and not doing anything else. And then, just because he was standing around for 6 levels of *poke poke poke* and *run run run run run*, now he has a bunch of money and is nuking the crap out of you.

Again, I understand that's the mechanics of the game, but in a game involving beat down and conflict, it just seems gay.

[Kidd Cabbage]

Then go play EM.

[relyanCe]

oh snap nigga just called u out

wachu gon' do, bladiata, wachu gon' do?

[zircon]

I don't remember the last time I got to autoattack for 2 minutes before I started getting harassed by the opposing hero. And I guess it's not so much the last-hit as it is the fact that I see thes heroes that just run back and forth all day behind the creeps .. just click click click click click click click click click click *slice* money click click click click click click click click click click click click *slice* deny. They don't ever attack something otherwise because if they do then they might not be ready to swing on the very last hit for something. Sure, it's a strategy, but it just ... well, look at it this way. You're a big bulky STR hero, you come in, beat the crap out of creeps and try to pave the way to victory, while the other guy is just poking stuff at the last second for money and not doing anything else. And then, just because he was standing around for 6 levels of *poke poke poke* and *run run run run run*, now he has a bunch of money and is nuking the crap out of you.

Again, I understand that's the mechanics of the game, but in a game involving beat down and conflict, it just seems gay.

Yep.

Can anyone really come up with an argument besides "that's the way it is"? I just think changing the mechanics around so it isn't so focused on last hitting/denying would make the game more interesting. For example, perhaps you gain XP per hit, thus if you do lots of damage to creeps, you get lots of XP. Denying could still be a tactical choice (just attack your own creeps) and so could attacking enemy heroes (maybe this would not give XP, only when you kill, as it is now.)

[Clefairy]

Can anyone really come up with an argument besides "that's the way it is"?

That's the way it's always been.

I think Blad said it best. Dota is a long-lived and well-loved game, with a fanbase as loyal as any other. A great number of those people are migrating into this game now, expecting more of the same. Straying too far from the source invites a shitstorm of controversy, which I think behooves S2 to play it safe until open beta at the very, very earliest.

[Hemophiliac]

aside from the gold/xp deny/gain there is one other factor that i haven't seen mentioned.

if you're denying your creeps you're also (more then likely) going to be pushing less, and early game this is good. it will help you tower-hug and be safer. the tower will be taking care of most of the creeps meanwhile keeping enemy heroes farther away.

[zircon]

That's the way it's always been.

I think Blad said it best. Dota is a long-lived and well-loved game, with a fanbase as loyal as any other. A great number of those people are migrating into this game now, expecting more of the same. Straying too far from the source invites a shitstorm of controversy, which I think behooves S2 to play it safe until open beta at the very, very earliest.

Again this isn't really an argument for why it's a great game design decision / mechanic that shouldn't be touched. HoN is not DotA - if people just want to play DotA, they can play that, it's still a fine game. HoN has already branched off and so it can be tweaked more.

if you're denying your creeps you're also (more then likely) going to be pushing less, and early game this is good. it will help you tower-hug and be safer. the tower will be taking care of most of the creeps meanwhile keeping enemy heroes farther away.

Sure, but I have no problem with the concept of denying, really. It's just the concept of having to get that last little sliver of life yourself to have any effect. Let's say a creep now gives 60 xp. Why not have it so that you get.. 100%/60 = 1.667 XP per 1% of damage you do to the creep? To prevent crap like hitting Kongor once and running, you could say that you don't gain any XP for the first 25%, and then at the very end, the last 25% is double XP. Basically this would have the same effect on balance, and the tactical decisions are still the same (do you attack your own creeps? the enemy creeps? the enemy heroes?) but it removes the stupid element of getting no credit unless you get the last hit.

[Tensei]

I honestly think that the last-hitting mechanic has just been implemented to add extra depth to the laning phase, when you're essentially just grinding XP.

[Clefairy]

HoN is not DotA

Except it is. The concept is identical, which is the point. People who've played one will carry their preconceptions over to the other. As DotA is, to my knowledge, the only established entry in the genre, the issue is exacerbated somewhat.

It's a stupid argument, we're in agreement there. But it has critical mass in the community, and until that gets addressed, the mechanics are almost certainly going to remain as they are.

[BardicKnowledge]

Sure, but I have no problem with the concept of denying, really. It's just the concept of having to get that last little sliver of life yourself to have any effect. Let's say a creep now gives 60 xp. Why not have it so that you get.. 100%/60 = 1.667 XP per 1% of damage you do to the creep? To prevent crap like hitting Kongor once and running, you could say that you don't gain any XP for the first 25%, and then at the very end, the last 25% is double XP. Basically this would have the same effect on balance, and the tactical decisions are still the same (do you attack your own creeps? the enemy creeps? the enemy heroes?) but it removes the stupid element of getting no credit unless you get the last hit.

Make it so neutral creeps you do have to get the kill for -- this allows for epic Kongor steals by ganking the other team, then finishing him yourself. Remember that we can separate "creeps" and "neutrals" into two separate classes as far as code is concerned now that there are no engine limitations. (not that S2 is going to do this anytime soon, but hey )

In any case, last hitting and denying is dumb for XP. For gold I'm okay with it, as I don't want gold given out on a DPS basis. Denying is great for tactical purposes, as Hemo mentioned. Why does this have to be tied into xp?

[eternal Zero]

Yep.

Can anyone really come up with an argument besides "that's the way it is"? I just think changing the mechanics around so it isn't so focused on last hitting/denying would make the game more interesting. For example, perhaps you gain XP per hit, thus if you do lots of damage to creeps, you get lots of XP. Denying could still be a tactical choice (just attack your own creeps) and so could attacking enemy heroes (maybe this would not give XP, only when you kill, as it is now.)

Here's the thing. Come up with a better idea that doesn't suck and/or will require the game to be flipped onto its head. This has been argued for ages.

Gain EXP per hit? High damage heroes will be strictly faster and will be the best. There will be no balance and quick nukers will dominate the game. Also same deal with getting a % of gold per kill (creep or hero) based on % damage? Removes strategy from the early game, totally reinforces simple brute strength and removes from the depth of the hero base.

Why does this have to be tied into xp?

Because it creates the necessary differential in game outcome when skills are pushed to the limit. To be level 6 when your opponent is level 3 or 4 in a solo lane because you've denied every creep ensures that you will be rewarded for being better at the game. Remember. DotA has always been a competitive variant and has been bred as such.

[zircon]

Gain EXP per hit? High damage heroes will be strictly faster and will be the best. There will be no balance and quick nukers will dominate the game

Higher damage characters already have an advantage last-hitting, hence why Soulstealer is great at it and why Logger's Axe is excellent. It's not like you'll get any MORE experience (in total) than you would vs. the last-hit mechanic. It just distributes it more evenly, so instead of all-or-nothing, you might get in-between. But it's impossible for you to get more than you would before. I don't see how this removes any strategy at all. Now, instead of farming XP by just being around enemies you're not even hitting, you HAVE to actually do something to earn it.

[k-wix]

Higher damage characters already have an advantage last-hitting, hence why Soulstealer is great at it and why Logger's Axe is excellent. It's not like you'll get any MORE experience (in total) than you would vs. the last-hit mechanic. It just distributes it more evenly, so instead of all-or-nothing, you might get in-between. But it's impossible for you to get more than you would before. I don't see how this removes any strategy at all. Now, instead of farming XP by just being around enemies you're not even hitting, you HAVE to actually do something to earn it.

Definitely with you on this, But Some characters are just *better* at laning, especially early game, and I definitely think you could get some heroes leveling a bit faster under that system. AoE characters would have the potential to level a bit faster, but it could be pretty easily tweaked to work with the game.

[Azul v2]

I'm a longtime DotA player, play every day for the most part, and tried HoN and didn't like it all, and went back to DotA.

I don't think DotA will ever die, until Icefrog (who I think is working with Blizzard) develops the map for Starcraft 2. I've seen that awful League of Legends and the better Heroes of Newerth, and I don't see any as a threat to the DotA community.

However, if you like/liked HoN and haven't played DotA previously, as I know a lot of new players haven't, then I would trying DotA, becuase it really is a great game, obviously the inspiration for HoN but much more polished as of now.

As for last hitting/denying....you will learn with experience why its an important tactic. Pushing the lane is the absoulte last thing you want to do the first 15 minutes unless you have an imba pusher like Broodmoother or Axe (don't know what heroes they are in HoN). You can autoattack all you want, but simple fact is you aren't going to get as much gold against a player who is last hitting/denying. The XP isn't a factor...you get XP as long as you are in the area and creeps are dying. If you want gold, and don't have a farming hero, last hitting is crucial to maintaining an advantage over the opponent.

Its also interesting to read you guys' reactions to heroes and the tiers you put them in.

Chronos is supposed to be Void right? If so, the Chronos is the best carry in the game, and he's top tier in DotA. Even if you think hes weak early, time walk can get you out of any situation and once you get that Mask of Madness then you can start permabashing any hero. Don't exclude Rewind/Backtrack, its probably one of the best skills in the game.

Soul Reaper - Necrolyte? If so, again one of the best INT heroes in the game. To the person who said his ult is just a kill steal skill, its defintely not. Its very imba. It does massive damage to any character, even the tankiest of tanks. The AoE heal is spammable and greatly enhances team fights no matter what stage of the game.

Keeper of the Forest - Roofellen - also top tier. Most ridiculous ult in the game, completely overturns team fights. The eyes in the forest (or I guess tree sight as its called here) are like a maphack for your team. Looks like they got rid of Overgrowth - don't understand that. Roof's third skill was a buff that added massive armor and a little HP regen to any teammate, himself, or buildings (to regen lost building health). Don't know how this new mechanic works out, but the ult is what makes this hero one of the best.

Ophelia - or Chen - very hard hero to play, wouldn't recommend for beginners. Can jungle right away, so skips the laning phase completly. With the ult staff, Chen/Ophelia becomes a medic. But lots of micro mangement.

Valkyrie - Mirana - best ganker, the arrow (or javelin here) is ridiculous for ganks. Andro - Vengeful Spirit - best all around support hero in the game, the swap is an instant killer and is great for imitating fights. Probably one of the most fun heroes to play too.

As for Magebane / Antimage, the hero is known along with Bloodseeker/Bloodhunger as being noob-killer heroes. You'll learn with more experience that these heroes are not very good and will get destroyed in higher level games. Chronos is better than these two heroes in every aspect of the game.

I'll stop talking now, becuase I know the mechanics of HoN are different from DotA and some of the heroes like Roof have been changed. But as far as the best heroes in competitive, league play DotA, I'd rank them as this:

1. Succubus/Bane Elemental - extremely imba. If you can't destroy the other team with this hero, then you need to reevaluate your skills. Can kill any other hero 1v1 at level 6.

2. Valk/Mirana - always picked, and if you are good your team will almost always win.

3. Andro/Vengeful - ditto. The swap is just ridiculous, and magic missle/comet is a great stun.

4. Chronos/Void - best carry. is pretty much invincible with rewind/backtrack and can permabash anything, also has an escape/initatior. Get IAS and you are set.

5. Voodoo/Rhasta - best INT with the best ult and disables.

6. Thunder/Zeus - spamming nukes early and often, the best early game hero. You should never have spare mana when around enemy heroes, for you should always be zapping them. Its your only advantage.

7. Behemoth/Earthshaker - just ridiculous. Can quintikill the other team by dagger/teleporting in and ulting and fissuring.

8. Warbeast/Lycan - best carry STR, can jungle early, and unless you are facing bane you probably lose every time 1v1. often banned in competitve play.

9. Clockwork/Pharoh - was way too overpowered in DotA until he got nerfed, but sounds the same here.

10. KotF/Roofellen - ridiculous ult. If you have behemoth/earthshaker on your team as well, then its game over for the other team before the game starts.

It doesn't look like the really bad heroes in DotA (sniper, troll) are in HoN, so you should be fine with any hero, really. Get a chance to play all of them at least 5 times, even if you completely hate their playstyle.

If you have any questions about DotA/specific heroes in HoN and strategies, let me know. Aside from the ones HoN created, like Dark Lady (not sure where the inspiration for that hero name came from), I know some pretty good strategies for each.

Edit: Also all bash effects share the same cooldown so you can't permabash for all you DotA folk. Another reason why Chronos isn't so viable anymore.

Nevermind, didn't see this. However, if its true that Orb Effects don't stack, then this shouldn't be a worry. Void can still backtrack anything, if thats not on cooldown.

[eternal Zero]

Being level 25 with a full inventory of 6 awesome items with Zephyr at 30 mins or something stupid like that then losing cause of overbalancing sucks.

Jk, those were some good matches. Some guys asked me for advice/critique on their play and I'm glad to do so.

[Azul v2]

Also, I can't wait to see the reaction when Techies is ported over.

http://web.dota-allstars.com/heroes/2885

[Hemophiliac]

i don't want to see techies in HoN, please no.

you'll get retard players who will only suicide the whole game

that's extremely not beneficial to your team.

[Tensei]

I'm pretty sure Chronos isn't an EXACT port of Darkterror. He's definitely not the best carry in the game, and I think most of the HoN community would back me up on that one. Sure, once you have your items farmed up you can solo the entire team, but that doesn't change the fact that he's fragile like hell, has nothing that can help him farm, has no lane control, and FULLY relies on items to be effective. He will be mostly useless for your team for the first 30~ minutes.

Edit: Some more thoughts on playing.

How to be a better support hero:

Playing a support hero can be very hard, not to mention frustrating, because it requires quite a different mindset, and even if you're good at it, it won't be as rewarding or satisfying as soloing the entire enemy team with a carry.

To clarify, by support heroes, I mean any type of hero that is mostly item-independent, with abilities that offer him and his lane buddy a substantial amount of lane control, such as healing or multiple disables. Having a ranged auto-attack is very important as well, with maybe one or two exceptions (Electrician and possibly Accursed).

Laning/Babysitting

This is probably the most important difference between playing a carry and playing supportively. If for some reason you don't happen to have a carry in your lane, but are paired up with a ganking-type hero, or, god forbid, another support hero, you can obviously play normally, since neither of you will strictly need better farm than the other.

Babysitting a carry is where it gets tricky though. Firstly, and most importantly: never, ever steal last-hits from your carry. In fact, it might be better to not last-hit at all, or only do so if your carry is out of range. Obviously don't auto-attack creeps either. Keep moving back and forth to not get hit by any aimed skills like Pudge, Valkyrie and Torturer's.

Never forget that your primary purpose in babysitting is making it easier for your carry to last-hit and farm up his core items. What this means is that you have to provide easy access to the lower health creeps; the carry has to be able to last-hit without sustaining a barrage of nukes and auto-attacks from the two enemy heroes. This is where harassment comes into play.

When you're a ranged hero, it's very easy to take some potshots at melee heroes whenever they get in range, and I highly suggest you do this. It's obviously a bit trickier against other ranged heroes, but positioning plays a large part.

(Normally you shouldn't be this close to the enemy tower, but bear with me, it's hard to set up in practice mode for me )

Do not go out of your way to hit enemy heroes, try to keep the carry and the creep waves between you and them. If you have to run next to the creep waves to hit the enemy heroes, you are doing it wrong, because the creeps will target you and do more damage to you than you would have done to the enemy heroes. Only hit the enemy heroes when they come close to the creep waves to get a last-hit. Even if they manage to land it, you will have done some damage, which will eventually start adding up and give you and your carry the possibility for an early kill.

I do not particularly advocate harassing with spells. Generally you want to keep your mana as high as possible so you can actually coordinate with your lane partner and get that kill when the time is right. There's some exceptions, like blood Hunter's or Hellbringer's DoT spells, which you should spam whenever you feel like it (since neither of them has burst damage or a disable early on, you're better off spending your mana on lowering the enemy heroes' hp by using the DoT).

Addendum: Since you're item-independent, you can, and should, spend your money on getting wards and/or a courier. Your team will love you for it

Kills/Ganking

Getting kills in-lane (so without help from other lanes) can be a great way to get an early advantage for your carry, and by extension, your team, but it's quite situational, and depends a lot on what heroes you are playing and what heroes you are facing. Unless you have a very very broken lane combo (we're talking electrician/swiftblade here), I generally think it's better to wait until the enemy heroes are out of regen items and have been harassed down to around 50-60% HP (any lower and they'll probably be playing a lot more cautiously). At this point, let them push the lane. Hard-deny your own creeps (i.e. start hitting them once they're under 50% HP) and don't even bother with getting last-hits anymore. Being close to your tower means you can quickly run to safety if things go wrong, while you'll have the opportunity to chase the enemy heroes down in case things do go your way.

Some things to consider with picking your target:

- How much HP does he have? Do we have enough burst damage to take him down? Try to go for an INT or AGI hero.

- How much can the other hero do to prevent us from getting the kill? Stuns/disables/nukes? How far is he away from the hero we're trying to kill?

- Does he have a homecoming stone? (Doubtful this early in the game, but you never know) If so, do we have means of interrupting it?

- In what order should we use our skills and who should initiate?

- Can we use the terrain (trees/higher ground) to our advantage?

Ideally you will have killed your target, but more often than not he will be running away with red HP while his buddy will be doing his best to block you from reaching him. This is why it's so important that he has some distance to run to his tower, it allows the skills you used to cooldown, and use them again if he's still in range. If you still have a lot of HP and mana (doubtful) it MIGHT be worth it to towerdive (i.e. chase him to behind his tower), but only do this if you are sure you can get the kill because it's very very risky, especially if the other hero is still around. Getting disabled near the enemy tower basically means you're dead.

Obviously, if all went well, GIVE THE KILL TO YOUR CARRY. Once the enemy is at very low HP be sure to stop auto-attacking him so your carry can finish him off. I can't emphasize enough how important this is. If you are playing for a high k/d ratio, don't play support. Period.

Ganks are similar, but should be a lot easier because you'll have the numerical advantage as well as a bigger pool of disables, so the chance for success with ganking is a lot higher. Same thing applies here, don't just blindly spam spells to finish off a hero, but consider who needs the gold and xp for the kill the most before you go in.

[zircon]

As for last hitting/denying....you will learn with experience why its an important tactic. Pushing the lane is the absoulte last thing you want to do the first 15 minutes unless you have an imba pusher like Broodmoother or Axe (don't know what heroes they are in HoN). You can autoattack all you want, but simple fact is you aren't going to get as much gold against a player who is last hitting/denying. The XP isn't a factor...you get XP as long as you are in the area and creeps are dying. If you want gold, and don't have a farming hero, last hitting is crucial to maintaining an advantage over the opponent.

I understand the importance of choosing between killing your creeps or the enemy ones. However, the only reason last-hitting even exists as a mechanic is because of the natural limitations and scope of the WC3 engine. They simply didn't have any other choice. That's why I kind of find it silly that everyone is defending it so vehemently when it wasn't even a design choice to begin with. It was just something that HAD to exist. Putting in a random test of manual skill to see if you can get the very last hit is out of place in a game that is all about tactical thinking and knowing what to do (plus where and when.)

Bladiator is absolutely right that it's ridiculous to have the first part of the game consist of your guy basically just standing there doing nothing and occasionally swinging. Doesn't anyone else see that this doesn't add any tactical value whatsoever? You can have the choice without forcing it to rely on last hits.

1. Succubus/Bane Elemental - extremely imba. If you can't destroy the other team with this hero, then you need to reevaluate your skills. Can kill any other hero 1v1 at level 6.

Yes, she is good, but imbalanced? I don't think so. Her biggest strength is her ult which can be canceled.

2. Valk/Mirana - always picked, and if you are good your team will almost always win.

Still very unimpressed with this hero from all my times playing against her. Oh wow, a long stun that requires the target to be completely away from any friendly heroes or creeps in order to hit properly. If the target is in that situation, they're dead anyway.

3. Andro/Vengeful - ditto. The swap is just ridiculous, and magic missle/comet is a great stun.

Swap is nice, but you have to sacrifice yourself to do it. I'd rather have somebody like Tempest or Kraken who can disable/warp the entire team.

4. Chronos/Void - best carry. is pretty much invincible with rewind/backtrack and can permabash anything, also has an escape/initatior. Get IAS and you are set.

If we're basing strength on how good they are lategame, then I guess no early gankers/roamers are any good? That's silly.

5. Voodoo/Rhasta - best INT with the best ult and disables.

Certainly a great hero, but best? No. Thunderbringer or Succu is probably best INT. Defiler can disable an entire team with AOE silence and her push is better than wards. Voodoo is very mana intensive and has no escapes or slows.

10. KotF/Roofellen - ridiculous ult. If you have behemoth/earthshaker on your team as well, then its game over for the other team before the game starts.

If you know Keeper is on the enemy team you can just spread out. Other heroes have insane AOE ults as well, such as Kraken and Tempest. Besides his ult he sucks. His eyes are just like wards except more easily disabled, his invis can be countered with a 180 gold item, and his damage buff is laughable. Trading all your utility for a long-cooldown spell is not worth it.

[Tensei]

Voodoo Jester is based on Witch Doctor, Pollywog Priest is based on Rhasta, fyi.

Also, yeah, in general, don't assume that just because a hero is ported from DotA he's anywhere near the same level as he used to be. The ports usually aren't accurate when it comes to attack animations and stat gain iirc. Also, different metagame and all that.

[anosou]

If you know Keeper is on the enemy team you can just spread out.

From where do I remember this argument?

[Kidd Cabbage]

You guys missed it. We played against S2 staff. So I Mesmerized Tensei to his doom.

[eternal Zero]

From where do I remember this argument?

Same one with Behemoth and Tempest and Magmus. Doesn't work for them, doesn't work for Keeper. Also a good Keeper player can place trees where you can't eat them easily and can still get sight of practically the entire map. Also he's quite undervalued so when playing in captain's mode he's a real easy last pick to round out a team.