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JackKieser

Mass Effect 3: Every Dialog Choice Can Be Answered with "Charge"

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I'm pretty sure I said that I could be wrong & the whole thing was just a bad ending. Never meant to give the impression that I was the only one that got it, just that it made sense to me, then presented my case. Didn't want to go super in depth becasue most people have already made up their minds & decided that they hate the ending & no one's gonna take away that bitter sweet cake. Which is great, it's a reaction & that's more than some so called good endings achieve.

Just wanted to give another opinion on what the ending might have been. Also, Keiser, you didn't say anything that disproved my writeup, you just posted a video that was pretty much some dude picking apart the series if you considered it all a lead up to a Mass Effect Universe ending, while my writeup was arguing that it was all about Shepards journey at the end of which he has Jacob's Ladder type death. He ven states in his other video that all of ti is based on the assumption that all of it was presented as happening in that universes reality. The theory I laid out is pretty much Moses leading his people to, & even seeing, the promised land but not being able to set foot in it. I kinda wish they had ended the playable game right when Shepard got hit with the laser, then showed one of your crewmates, maybe Kaiden, Vega or even an MP chracter you promoted. I think the whole point of the Shepard was one of a Winter Soldier that does his job, not for glory or to be the hero, but to give everyone else a chance. Everyone wanted a Mass Effect story, but it was Shepards story all along, which ends when he's killed. I get why the ending is hated, but I still believe it made sense narratively & thematically, even if it was presented rather sloppily. Then again, at least we didn't get a bunch of pictures & text with voiceovers.

All of this could be rendered moot depending on what "The Truth" dlc ends up being.

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still being a fucking cunt.

let me explain. i don't really care about what you think, because i'm too busy telling you to leave this forum until you are capable of NOT being a condescending jackass to EVERYONE you talk to here. puffing your chest out like a bro isn't cool here.

Go. Away.

EDIT:

Respectfully request this pissing match go private. (Just make sure to cuddle afterwards.)

the point is not engender argument. to the contrary, the point is to end the influx of inanity and petty intellectual bullying i keep seeing in this forum as of late. it's silly, it's violent, it's tiring, and it needs to stop. agreements and disagreements are free to come and go in the inevitable clash of ideas we experience in discussion, but violence should be absolutely NOT allowed to persist in a community fundamentally based on the solidarity of gamers and musicians.

Mr. Keiser is going to reply with something similar to "fuck you, i'm important", probably post another picture, and I will desist and leave the rest to moderators.

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oh look JackKieser is about to destroy another thread

Fuck that guy, that is my job. I aint loosing my job to some guy with a post count lower than mine.

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angry comment!

so the geth engineer is basically game-breakingly good. i spent ten minutes trying to find a game in gold as a L20 infiltrator or L20 engineer because either we'd have someone who was L15/overall level <30 trying to get in with L1 weapons, or i'd get kicked because i wasn't a geth engineer. suuuuuper annoying.

that said, promoting is dumb. why lose your level 20 character if all it means is that you have to re-raise that class all over again? to respec? i'd rather waste a respec powers bonus than have to re-train a class all over again.

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I'm pretty sure I said that I could be wrong & the whole thing was just a bad ending. Never meant to give the impression that I was the only one that got it, just that it made sense to me, then presented my case. Didn't want to go super in depth becasue most people have already made up their minds & decided that they hate the ending & no one's gonna take away that bitter sweet cake. Which is great, it's a reaction & that's more than some so called good endings achieve.

A couple of things:

I know you technically wrote the words "I could be wrong", but it came off as a formality of writing; you stated pretty plainly multiple times that you thought you were right, and I have no illusions about whether you honestly think you are correct or not (you do). That's fine, you can think what you do, but I thought it necessary to point out a problem.

Just wanted to give another opinion on what the ending might have been. Also, Keiser, you didn't say anything that disproved my writeup, you just posted a video that was pretty much some dude picking apart the series if you considered it all a lead up to a Mass Effect Universe ending, while my writeup was arguing that it was all about Shepards journey at the end of which he has Jacob's Ladder type death. He ven states in his other video that all of ti is based on the assumption that all of it was presented as happening in that universes reality. The theory I laid out is pretty much Moses leading his people to, & even seeing, the promised land but not being able to set foot in it. I kinda wish they had ended the playable game right when Shepard got hit with the laser, then showed one of your crewmates, maybe Kaiden, Vega or even an MP chracter you promoted. I think the whole point of the Shepard was one of a Winter Soldier that does his job, not for glory or to be the hero, but to give everyone else a chance. Everyone wanted a Mass Effect story, but it was Shepards story all along, which ends when he's killed. I get why the ending is hated, but I still believe it made sense narratively & thematically, even if it was presented rather sloppily. Then again, at least we didn't get a bunch of pictures & text with voiceovers.

Technically, I didn't say anything because you guys tend not to like my usual long-ass posts, and because I didn't feel it necessary to reproduce in text what was already done in video. That being said, I never said that you were entirely wrong (the "Jacob's ladder" stuff was interesting), just that your points were moot because of more fundamental problems. This is a big issue with the ending right now: the difference between "able to be enjoyed" and "objectively good". You were able to enjoy the ending, and were even able to point out some neat stuff about it, and made a good attempt at justifying the good-ness of the ending (I wasn't being facetious, btw; it was a good attempt), but the underlying problems, which are MUCH more fundamental than what you go over in your write up, still make it a bad ending, in a scholarly literary sense. This has been verified by actual lit professors on the BSN, as well, so it's not really up for debate anymore. That, of course, doesn't mean that people can't enjoy it (people somehow manage to like "Jersey Shore").

All of this could be rendered moot depending on what "The Truth" dlc ends up being.

Doubtful. The DLC has already been confirmed, by multiple people at multiple occasions, not to retcon the endings ANY, which means they will be adding more to what is already crap. You can write a whole 'nother game after the ending, full of clarification and closure, and the ending (that is to say, the scenes that comprise the last 10 or so minutes of the game as of now) will still be bad because it's problem is NOT clarity-related. I'm interested, sure, but without retcons, not much substantial can be done because BioWare thinks that the ending is bad for the wrong reasons.

EDIT: Also, I'm not leaving the thread I started myself, and I'm not ruining anything. It's not my fault if certain people in a Mass Effect thread have never seen Mass Effect related image macros before. Christ, it's not like anything I've posted so far is even a modicum as bad as what OCRemixers have posted in other threads, never mind what I've posted in other threads. Calm the fuck down. -_-;

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angry comment!

so the geth engineer is basically game-breakingly good. i spent ten minutes trying to find a game in gold as a L20 infiltrator or L20 engineer because either we'd have someone who was L15/overall level <30 trying to get in with L1 weapons, or i'd get kicked because i wasn't a geth engineer. suuuuuper annoying.

that said, promoting is dumb. why lose your level 20 character if all it means is that you have to re-raise that class all over again? to respec? i'd rather waste a respec powers bonus than have to re-train a class all over again.

Promotions affect the single player to an extent but for now its not worth doing. Unless bioware does another promo event. (Very possible)

Geth Engineer is MASSIVELY powerful if properly specced and geared. Hunter mode is very nice but the turret. Good god the turret. I've basically (going by exp score) soloed Banshee, Brute, and Mechs Without a rocket because of that thing. If i get an SR with innate piercing like a Widow i may be switching to the geth AR and a widow because hunter mode. Its melee is weak and if its shields go down you have trouble but my god it is a fun class to play

Golds are insanely difficult however and really i wont run anything like that without people i know and trust.

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So far I've found the Batarian Sentinel, Krogan Vanguard, and Geth Infiltrator. (Insert "Geth do not infiltrate" joke here.)

Sentinel: Blade Armor is meh, a brain dead set it and forget it ability. There's no benefit to turning it off and I don't think it cuts your recharge speed when in use. Boring but mildly practical. Not sure how it interacts with Phantoms, but there's potential for hilarity. Shockwave is Shockwave, i.e. mediocre and bugged if you took the Radius evolution at Rank 4. Submission Net counts as a tech power for those who care, and lends itself well to sniping for obvious reasons -- it's basically a tech-based Stasis. And like the Stasis bubble, if you shoot it at the environment instead of an enemy, it'll linger and trap the next enemy to walk over it.

Krogan Vanguard: For some reason its Charge is slower than the Human/Drell/Asari versions. Not sure what's up with that, but it definitely takes longer to get from A to B. Between Barrier, Rage, natural bulk, and Charge restoring your barriers, it's really hard to die. My shotgun of choice right now is the Claymore, which weighs only marginally less than a lead brick, so my cooldowns are ass.

Geth Infiltrator: Oh my god I love this thing. Hunter Mode is a limited-range wallhack, so combine this with a sniper rifle that can penetrate walls and hilarity ensues. (Lucky me I have a Widow V.) I think the Javelin counts as a Geth weapon as far as the passive is concerned, so that'll get an extra damage boost. One thing I did differently from my other Infiltrators is spec Tactical Cloak for extra power when cloaked over extended duration, and suddenly my Proximity Mines are blowing up mooks instantly, especially with Hunter Mode enabled. The low health and reduced shields during Hunter Mode are surprisingly a non-issue between your cloak and wallhack. Unless you get tunnel vision you can see enemies coming a mile away and prepare accordingly.

</wall of text>

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i got a krogan vanguard with my first 99k pack. i use a disciple with it. i don't do much shotgun damage, but who cares? melees hit like a tank and you headbutt people. i'm doing that over shooting stuff.

i'm still really enjoying the salarian infiltrator, which is a ridiculous class when you come down to it. you've got no hp or shields - but you can cloak forever, kill most non-gold characters with a headshot including stasis'd phantoms, you can kill a bronze or (sometimes) silver atlas in three shots with a widow, and you've got energy drain for when you take any damage at all. i can't solo bronze very efficiently like you can with a vanguard or soldier, but i can be a better fourth man than just about any other class merely because of the dps support i can do. are the other infiltrators like that?

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i got a krogan vanguard with my first 99k pack. i use a disciple with it. i don't do much shotgun damage, but who cares? melees hit like a tank and you headbutt people. i'm doing that over shooting stuff.

i'm still really enjoying the salarian infiltrator, which is a ridiculous class when you come down to it. you've got no hp or shields - but you can cloak forever, kill most non-gold characters with a headshot including stasis'd phantoms, you can kill a bronze or (sometimes) silver atlas in three shots with a widow, and you've got energy drain for when you take any damage at all. i can't solo bronze very efficiently like you can with a vanguard or soldier, but i can be a better fourth man than just about any other class merely because of the dps support i can do. are the other infiltrators like that?

Infiltrators in general can put out absurd amounts of damage, but the Salarian is widely regarded to be top tier, yes. It's probably a bit early, but the Geth Infiltrator is looking to be pretty strong as well thanks to Hunter Mode. Squishier but stronger.

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i got a krogan vanguard with my first 99k pack. i use a disciple with it. i don't do much shotgun damage, but who cares? melees hit like a tank and you headbutt people. i'm doing that over shooting stuff.

My neighbor got the Krogan van with his free pack, and he doesn't even bother packing a shotty with it. He just Charge + Melee + Charge + Melee + Charge + Melee over and over again, because with Charge's ability to restore the shields he can melee down Atlases and Primes solo. He just packs a Locust III so that he can get in on helping against 1-hit KO enemies, and to mop up any weak enemies.

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i was using a pistol with the melee damage amp on it, and that works well. it gives me a bit of range too, which is all i really wanted.

got a geth engineer and infiltrator right away, as well as a krogan sentinel and a turian soldier. the engineer is super good - that turret is flat-out broken - and with the geth shotty is just so awesome. too bad he's so squish once you get through his shields - makes nemeses really dangerous again. the infiltrator...i don't know. salarian infiltrator's energy drain really adds a lot to the character. as cool as hunter mode is, a grenade on silver can almost kill you from full strength when it's on, so i don't know how viable that is.

that said, i soloed my first dual atlas spawn on silver with my kroguard, and it was super hilarious. if it weren't for the 1-hit KO moves that seemingly occur randomly, i'd be using kroguard basically all the time.

edit: i'd love love love to do some gold next weekend with OCR folks. i don't get back on my box until friday night or saturday morning, but if anyone's up for it, send me a message on Live and i'm in. i've got a level 20 of all engineers and infiltrators, and level 18 or 19 kroguard and asariguard. i'm working on leveling up the heavy guys now, starting with krogan/turian sentinel.

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ME3 is half-off today for Amazon's Gold Deal of the Day thing.

http://www.amazon.com/gp/feature.html/ref=xs_gb_AUEQWFD38VRW3?ie=UTF8&docId=1000796961&pf_rd_p=441937901&pf_rd_s=right-1&pf_rd_t=701&pf_rd_i=20&pf_rd_m=ATVPDKIKX0DER&pf_rd_r=0ZRSQSN78AHSA7Q97E4X

*edit*

Also, Geth Inf + Valiant/Black Widow/Javelin = pretty much unstoppable. I've triple killed 3 guardians on Gold (got lucky) with my Javelin. Also, Javelin + piercing mod + piercing ammo = I can pretty much shoot through anything. And the hunter mode wall hack (that's basically what it is) + the Javelin's built-in wall-hack mode is just... not fair to the enemies. :twisted:

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Curse you, Jimmy! I was doing so well at saving money. Now I really want to buy the game.

Must...resist....

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Curse you, Jimmy! I was doing so well at saving money. Now I really want to buy the game.

Must...resist....

Not to further tempt you, but that's probably the cheapest that game is going to be for quite a while. I dunno, it *may* go on sale in the summertime, but so far I don't think Origin is following Steam's brilliant business model of throwing such insane deals at its customers that they impulsively throw all their money at them. As in, they're still old fashioned and greedy when it comes to selling stuff.

Also, Origin (and EA's servers in general) sucks.

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Just finished Mass Effect 3 (after playing through the entire trilogy over the last few weeks).

Holy shit.

Treating the Mass Effect trilogy as a single game, I'd put it easily among my top five favorite games. I don't think I've ever gotten that emotionally invested in a game before.

I honestly and genuinely cared about the characters. I honestly and genuinely stressed about the decisions I made in the game, and spent much time wondering if I'd made the right choices. I felt genuine companionship with Garrus, genuine affection for Liara and Tali. This trilogy is an absolute masterpiece (2 and 3 moreso than 1).

As for the ending: I quite liked it.

The whole scene with the kid on the crucible was clearly a hallucination or dream sequence. Possibly the entire post-beam section, but definitely everything after the death of Anderson and the Illusive Man.

There seem to be a lot of complaints about the ambiguity or lack of closure in the ending, but I don't really think that's a valid complaint. Since when does art have to concrete and obvious in its meanings?

To draw a parallel: everybody's read "The Giver," right? Remember the end? Did the main character die? Did the infant die? What happened to all the people left back in the city? Who the fuck knows?

It's ambiguous. It's meant to be. And that's completely fine. There is nothing at all wrong with art being open to interpretation.

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Just finished Mass Effect 3 (after playing through the entire trilogy over the last few weeks).

Holy shit.

Treating the Mass Effect trilogy as a single game, I'd put it easily among my top five favorite games. I don't think I've ever gotten that emotionally invested in a game before.

I honestly and genuinely cared about the characters. I honestly and genuinely stressed about the decisions I made in the game, and spent much time wondering if I'd made the right choices. I felt genuine companionship with Garrus, genuine affection for Liara and Tali. This trilogy is an absolute masterpiece (2 and 3 moreso than 1).

As for the ending: I quite liked it.

The whole scene with the kid on the crucible was clearly a hallucination or dream sequence. Possibly the entire post-beam section, but definitely everything after the death of Anderson and the Illusive Man.

There seem to be a lot of complaints about the ambiguity or lack of closure in the ending, but I don't really think that's a valid complaint. Since when does art have to concrete and obvious in its meanings?

To draw a parallel: everybody's read "The Giver," right? Remember the end? Did the main character die? Did the infant die? What happened to all the people left back in the city? Who the fuck knows?

It's ambiguous. It's meant to be. And that's completely fine. There is nothing at all wrong with art being open to interpretation.

I agree with everything you just said.

Also, my Krogaurd dies quick all the time. I do better with my human than him. Am I doing it wrong?

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It's ambiguous. It's meant to be. And that's completely fine. There is nothing at all wrong with art being open to interpretation.

I think it's the tone shift that people object to.

"The Giver" is not a space opera. The protagonist is not a supreme badass who overcomes seemingly insurmountable problems time and time again. It's a bleak, dystopian novel created to challenge the idea that ignorance is bliss. Nobody would read a book like that and expect a concrete, happy ending.

Mass Effect was pure Hollywood sci-fi until the lead writer played the Deus Ex games and thought "Holy shit, I need to get in on this." Naturally, people felt cheated.

Imagine being back in 1983, seeing Return of the Jedi. You've been following the series since the first movie six years ago, and the wait has been agonising. Then, just as the Death Star is about to be destroyed once and for all, suddenly it transitions into the ending of 2001: A Space Odyssey. While the ending of 2001: A Space Odyssey may be good, it only works at the end of a movie like 2001: A Space Odyssey.

Which is not to say that ME3's ending wasn't bad for many other reasons.

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I think it's the tone shift that people object to.

"The Giver" is not a space opera. The protagonist is not a supreme badass who overcomes seemingly insurmountable problems time and time again. It's a bleak, dystopian novel created to challenge the idea that ignorance is bliss. Nobody would read a book like that and expect a concrete, happy ending.

Mass Effect was pure Hollywood sci-fi until the lead writer played the Deus Ex games and thought "Holy shit, I need to get in on this." Naturally, people felt cheated.

Imagine being back in 1983, seeing Return of the Jedi. You've been following the series since the first movie six years ago, and the wait has been agonising. Then, just as the Death Star is about to be destroyed once and for all, suddenly it transitions into the ending of 2001: A Space Odyssey. While the ending of 2001: A Space Odyssey may be good, it only works at the end of a movie like 2001: A Space Odyssey.

Which is not to say that ME3's ending wasn't bad for many other reasons.

I disagree.

The most central theme of the entire trilogy was the internal struggle between Shepard's paragon and renegade sides. This was the entire point of the trilogy, right from the get-go. It's a central mechanic to the game, it's a central part of the narrative, and it's a central part of what draws the player in. The whole space opera thing is just a platform to explore the philosophical and moral dilemmas it brings up.

The ending fits this perfectly. Yes, it gets abstract, and for a game whose most compelling aspect is not what takes place on screen, but what happens in the player's mind, abstract is fine.

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I disagree.

The most central theme of the entire trilogy was the internal struggle between Shepard's paragon and renegade sides. This was the entire point of the trilogy, right from the get-go. It's a central mechanic to the game, it's a central part of the narrative, and it's a central part of what draws the player in. The whole space opera thing is just a platform to explore the philosophical and moral dilemmas it brings up.

The ending fits this perfectly. Yes, it gets abstract, and for a game whose most compelling aspect is not what takes place on screen, but what happens in the player's mind, abstract is fine.

I don't think the central theme was about Shepard. In fact, I don't think Shepard becomes a truly important character until Mass Effect 3.

In Mass Effect 1 the focus was clearly on exploring the setting and introducing the story. What were the most memorable and key moments of Mass Effect 1? The conversation with Sovereign and the conversation with Vigil. Most everything in the game happened around Shepard, not because of him. Certainly Shepard helped defeat the bad guys and did a lot of good and cool stuff, but Shepard wasn't the focus. He enables everything else in the story to occur. (Yes he was the first human Spectre, but... I don't think that has much relevance to the point I'm trying to make).

Mass Effect 2 became more character focused. It's focus was on your team. The main plot of ME2 was so bland and riddled with plot holes that every time I have to play it, I complain loudly so my cat understands how upset I am. Now on the other hand, the squad missions I absolutely love! From each character having their own music themes to the incredibly important decisions in the loyalty missions (e.g. Mordin's Loyalty). Bioware spent a lot of time crafting each character. In Mass Effect 1 you're introduced to the bigness of galactic politics and culture, while in Mass Effect 2 you're introduced to the detailed cultures through becoming friends with individuals in each of those cultures. Mordin became one of my absolute favorite characters because the game spent time on him. I learned about the details of the genophage from someone who worked on the team! I discovered Krogan culture through Grunt. I learned about a little more sensitive parts of Asari culture through Samara. I figured out who those lizard men from the trailer were through Thane (and he's one of my favorite characters too).

Even though Shepard's resurrection seemed really important, they honestly could have replaced Shepard with someone else and still accomplished the focus of the game (discovering the galaxy through characters). Remember, the only reason Shepard needed resurrected was because they killed him off at the beginning. They could have just killed him and used a different character.

Mass Effect 3's main theme is somewhat debatable, but what I gathered was Unity. The focus of Mass Effect 3 is to set aside the differences between all these cultures and unify them to take a stand against the Reapers. You are literally doing this throughout the entire game, whether it be the main plot or some fetch quest you got on the citadel. The reason I believe Shepard doesn't become important until 3 is because Shepard's character can't be replaced. In Mass Effect 1 and 2 you could replace Shepard with any generic hero, but in 3 Shepard is the only one that has the capability of bringing the races together (or rather make these important decisions).

Mass Effect 1 - Introducing the Galaxy, introduce Reaper threat

Mass Effect 2 - Discover details and culture of galaxy through Characters.

Mass Effect 3 - Unify the galaxy to defeat Reaper threat

The whole space opera thing is just a platform to explore the philosophical and moral dilemmas it brings up.

Yes. That's part of space opera. But you know what else is part of Space Operas? Space LASERS. Pew pew pew! :-D

Joking aside that wasn't the issue with the ending in my mind. The ending choices were fine. The real problem was in the presentation. If they would have presented things in a different manner, addressed some of the really irksome questions (i.e. SPOILER Why is Liara getting off the crashed Normandy when she was lasered with me not a half hour ago? or Why is the Normandy trying to fly away from the energy ball? Did they leave the battle? /SPOILER) If they had drawn the ending out a little bit more and answered some of the immediate questions, a lot more people would have liked the ending.

Overall the ending felt really really short. For a series that I've invested over 300 hours in, the ending seemed really brief and... unsatisfying for me. I think that's where the issues come from. Clarity and closure.

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Taucer hits on a major point, that Science Fiction as a genre- while it certainly has the lazers PEWPEW a lot- more often than not uses its setting as a canvas to paint themes and conflicts that directly relate to contemporary social, ethical, and moral issues. The central themes of the Mass Effect trilogy can be seen as reflections of our own world issues through the lens of a fantastical setting, where the lazers PEWPEW, spaceships ZEEOOOOWM, and aliens GURGLEGURGLE can sufficiently displace the feelings of "Oh no we can't talk about that" and allow the creators- or, in this brilliant case, the AUDIENCE of PLAYERS- to answer the dramatic questions they pose in diverse ways, without fear of being negatively labeled therefore.

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Also, my Krogaurd dies quick all the time. I do better with my human than him. Am I doing it wrong?

Did you choose the shield replenishment option with biotic charge? That helps a TON - makes him nigh invulnerable to all but one-hit KO'ers (Phantoms, Banshees, etc.), especially if you only carry one weapon.

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The most central theme of the entire trilogy was the internal struggle between Shepard's paragon and renegade sides.

What struggle? Pick blue. All blue, all the time, blue is always the good option and everything works out nicely. The only reason to ever pick red is if you feel like being a jerk.

Most players will just go Paragon and stick with it except maybe to punch that reporter, or go Renegade and stick with it except maybe to give Tali a hug. The sides aren't even in opposition. You just deal with situations however you want, knowing that blue means happy ending and red means asshole ending where someone probably dies. That's not a struggle.

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