Chiptunes ...?

[zircon]

I dunno, 2003 and 2005 had pretty different standards...

The two Dr. Fruitcake mixes, eg. http://ocremix.org/remix/OCR01108/ probably a better example.

[Dave Harris]

Katie: EGADS WHY U DO THIS. For what it's worth I'm relieved it didn't make it onto the site. How the panel reached the decision to reject it might be an area of debate (ancient history now) BUT I think it was nonetheless the right choice, at least for me... as you say, it's pretty old and rough. Although it did end up at R:TS, safely where no-one will ever listen ;3

[Monobrow]

Exactly, obviously people feel weird about their previous work (sorry dave, it was BURNING IN MY HEART), but the point about "why" is what my question is about, as you have said *_*.

[danimal cannon]

Wait till I submit my gameboy remix of a gameboy song just fuck with you guys. My sound design and hugeness will be bigger than a lot of your dance tracks. Then what? http://danimalcannon.bandcamp.com/track/roots And no, other than a little limiting and EQ on a master bus, there's zero processing going on with those instruments.

Sidechaining? Fuck that shit, real men do it with envelope commands.

DSP? Fuck that I'll modulate my waveforms by cycling through manually drawn ones.

Here's my point. Chiptunes have evolved. My gameboy isn't a chintzy midi, it AN INSTRUMENT. It's A SYNTHESIZER. Fuck man, the most popular synthesizer of the 80's (DX7) had the same chip as a Genesis. To discriminate against one kind of instrument is just plain shitty.

[PixelPanic]

Sidechaining? Fuck that shit, real men do it with envelope commands.

DSP? Fuck that I'll modulate my waveforms by cycling through manually drawn ones.

My kinda man. A man's man.

[zircon]

Dude, relax. No one is discriminating. Did you read the thread or just skim the first few posts? There is no rule on OCR that says "no chiptunes", just that if you're going to do chiptunes you need to be very creative and make up for the limited capabilities in other ways. Your track is very creative. If you submitted a remix with a GREAT arrangement in this style, I would YES it.

There are tons of mixes on the site with chiptune sounds, so we definitely have nothing against that instrument. The discussion is more about the PURE chiptune production style which uses chip instruments and nothing else.

[PROTO·DOME]

My gameboy isn't a chintzy midi, it AN INSTRUMENT. It's A SYNTHESIZER.

So is the default Windows GM synth.

Hey guys, we should make miditune, wingroove, GMbeat, winpop, it should happen.

[PixelPanic]

Here's my point. Chiptunes have evolved. My gameboy isn't a chintzy midi, it AN INSTRUMENT. It's A SYNTHESIZER. Fuck man, the most popular synthesizer of the 80's (DX7) had the same chip as a Genesis. To discriminate against one kind of instrument is just plain shitty.

I believe there is some proverb that goes something like "it matters not the tool, but how you use it" or something like that. Gameboy music (at least early on) was made mostly to go with a game, repetitive and catchy. Even if you just use the same music design as the Gameboy, it is for a different purpose. If I make my remix in LSDj or Famitracker or Nanoloop, I shouldn't be refused even consideration for a remix due to sounding too basic. If my song rocks your shit, don't hold me back because I used bleeps and bloops which I regard on the same level as a synthesizer (and even a drum kit sometimes)

[Brandon Strader]

All remixes that don't have some kind of live instrument should be rejected and all of them on the site that fit that criteria should be removed.

[PixelPanic]

All remixes that don't have some kind of live instrument should be rejected and all of them on the site that fit that criteria should be removed.

I'm outie

/sarcasm

[Gario]

Dude, relax. No one is discriminating. Did you read the thread or just skim the first few posts? There is no rule on OCR that says "no chiptunes", just that if you're going to do chiptunes you need to be very creative and make up for the limited capabilities in other ways. Your track is very creative. If you submitted a remix with a GREAT arrangement in this style, I would YES it.

For the record, Zircon YES'd Espergirl back in the day. Just sayin', is all.

One thing that would be really interesting to see would be a bunch of pure chiptune artists flooding the submissions mailbox with incredible chiptune remixes to prove to everyone that they really do sound excellent on their own. I suspect that something would pass through, considering how objectively amazing some chiptune tracks sound.

That would likely force OCR to post something, not because of popularity or the like but because the music actually holds up to the standard that's in place. I would be upset if they were rejected just because they're chiptunes, but I don't think that was the case. Personally, I'd like to see some glorious chiptune arrangements pass, and I think some of the talent that's been posting in here could make it happen.

[RoeTaKa]

Wait till I submit my gameboy remix of a gameboy song just fuck with you guys. My sound design and hugeness will be bigger than a lot of your dance tracks. Then what? http://danimalcannon.bandcamp.com/track/roots And no, other than a little limiting and EQ on a master bus, there's zero processing going on with those instruments.

Sidechaining? Fuck that shit, real men do it with envelope commands.

DSP? Fuck that I'll modulate my waveforms by cycling through manually drawn ones.

Here's my point. Chiptunes have evolved. My gameboy isn't a chintzy midi, it AN INSTRUMENT. It's A SYNTHESIZER. Fuck man, the most popular synthesizer of the 80's (DX7) had the same chip as a Genesis. To discriminate against one kind of instrument is just plain shitty.

Just for the record, reading this in a Christopher Walken voice is great.

[psychowolf]

I demand a completely chiptuned remix album

The theme is chiptune.

The ball is in the court, time to play

[danimal cannon]

Dude, relax. No one is discriminating. Did you read the thread or just skim the first few posts? There is no rule on OCR that says "no chiptunes", just that if you're going to do chiptunes you need to be very creative and make up for the limited capabilities in other ways. Your track is very creative. If you submitted a remix with a GREAT arrangement in this style, I would YES it.

If someone came up with a good song composed for 3 flutes and a bongo which is a shitty analog for chip music (basic percussion and monophonic instruments) it would be held to a different standard than chip music, which at this current point is a 2nd class citizen in this site. You would not bash the track for not having huge sounding drums (which would probably sound awful), because that's not the style that was trying to be reached. You wouldn't bash the flute players for not playing anything in the bass clef, because flutes don't hit those notes.

But for some reason, programming a chiptune well, with thought out expressions, evelopes, and traditional chiptune drums, is unacceptable, even though that's a perfectly legit style.

It all goes back to "why do we listen to videogame remixes". The real answer is that OG chiptunes sound fucking weak and didn't get very fleshed out due to memory constraints.

"Oh man, this would be an awesome song if it had sweet electric guitars and an orchestral string section, you know real instruments"

But as a guy who has done that ad nauseum, and then explored the chiptune world extensively, I can return to say that chip music is every bit as legitimate as any other kind of music, whether "PURE" or with enhancements. And trust me, you don't know how much chip music can be seen as a musical 2nd class citizen until you've tried to perform shows for the general public doing it.

What if Sam submitted a piano song, and you guys rejected it saying, "sorry we only accept piano songs if they have (YET TO BE SEEN) amazingness like chords of 12 note polyphony and descending bass note arpeggios played so fast that they sound like kick drums.

It would be ridiculous right? I mean piano music is a completely legitimate respected type of traditional music. After dissapearing to the chiptune trenches for 2 years, I can assure you that chiptunes are every bit as legitimate. 3 years ago I might have agreed with you. But talking about how chiptunes are limited is like telling a harpsichord player that he needs more dynamics. Or how pianos can't play a single note tremelo picking style very well. Or how a synth player sounds very fake and not human. Or how a trumpet is way too monophonic. EVERY instrument has certain limitations. And I've never seen an instrument like chiptunes reinvent music in this day and age. Cept skirlex lol

[danimal cannon]

Shnabs 2a03 style chips vs my Gameboy DMG loudass chips is like the difference between a classical guitar arrangement and distorted electric guitar. Let's start NO'ing classical guitar arrangements for not being fleshed out enough. Oh wait, that's a traditional accepted form of music. UNLIKE CHIPTUNES.

I could go forever. 2nd class citizens in the music world yet?

[Gario]

If someone came up with a good song composed for 3 flutes and a bongo which is a shitty analog for chip music (basic percussion and monophonic instruments) it would be held to a different standard than chip music, which at this current point is a 2nd class citizen in this site. You would not bash the track for not having huge sounding drums (which would probably sound awful), because that's not the style that was trying to be reached. You wouldn't bash the flute players for not playing anything in the bass clef, because flutes don't hit those notes.

I don't think that's a fair comparison, because in the case of the flute and bongos you'd need to tweak the recording equipment, the EQ, the reverb, etc., until it sounded great. In the case of absolutely pure NSF files you not only don't mess with many of these things, you can't mess with these things and remain a purist. Instead you use polyphony and other cool techniques to achieve these effects, but the point remains that chiptunes are at a disadvantage because of that. It's not just a channel limitation, it's a limitation on the very fabrics of the production, and it's not a trivial one, either.

While I personally didn't agree with the Espergirl decision made back in 2006 (even if today Shnabubula could blow it out of the water, I still think that held enough kickass to pass, but that's just me), I can sympathize with what their point was. It's not only channel and timbre limitations that they need to deal with - it's the lack of outside effects, limiters, compressors, EQ, etc., that they would be compared against if the chiptune was a pure chiptune. These are all very nice things that could make the music sound clearer and more thick, so the chiptune would really need to compensate for that in it's arrangement tricks and electronic sorcery. Which is entirely possible, by the way.

From my understanding, though, people haven't submit too many chiptune tracks because it's believed that the site will never ever accept them, when I don't think that's the case. It's just that when competing with music that doesn't limit itself in such a fashion it's tough to get it up to an objectively amazing standard. Even chiptune artists should agree that it's a monumental task to get a chiptune to sound as good in production as, say, a Deadmau5 track or something. I think it's still possible, but damn difficult.

[The Damned]

I demand a completely chiptuned remix album

The theme is chiptune.

The ball is in the court, time to play

Game Boy album is now all Game Boy chiptune.

GO GO GO GO GO GO GO!

[danimal cannon]

I don't think that's a fair comparison, because in the case of the flute and bongos you'd need to tweak the recording equipment, the EQ, the reverb, etc., until it sounded great. In the case of absolutely pure NSF files you not only don't mess with many of these things, you can't mess with these things and remain a purist. Instead you use polyphony and other cool techniques to achieve these effects, but the point remains that chiptunes are at a disadvantage because of that. It's not just a channel limitation, it's a limitation on the very fabrics of the production, and it's not a trivial one, either.

While I personally didn't agree with the Espergirl decision made back in 2006 (even if today Shnabubula could blow it out of the water, I still think that held enough kickass to pass, but that's just me), I can sympathize with what their point was. It's not only channel and timbre limitations that they need to deal with - it's the lack of outside effects, limiters, compressors, EQ, etc., that they would be compared against if the chiptune was a pure chiptune. These are all very nice things that could make the music sound clearer and more thick, so the chiptune would really need to compensate for that in it's arrangement tricks and electronic sorcery. Which is entirely possible, by the way.

Ok, so what about the piano? Now we have digital pianos? You don't have to mess with any recording equipment. Throw a little built in verb and call it a day. There's no recording talent there, just compositional.

Meanwhile with chiptunes, if I want some verb or delay, I have to MANUALLY program it in using either 2 channels or single channel echo. That's perfectly fine, modern chiptune artists are doing it ALL THE TIME. But I'm sure that gets glossed over. In terms of EQ, you're doing that with duty cycle modulations. 15% for high, 25% for mid, and 50% for bass sounds. Limited, um yeah, but also considering this is for final MP3s, I'm sure a decently mastered track with decent EQ and loudness should suffice.

From my understanding, though, people haven't submit too many chiptune tracks because it's believed that the site will never ever accept them, when I don't think that's the case. It's just that when competing with music that doesn't limit itself in such a fashion it's tough to get it up to an objectively amazing standard. Even chiptune artists should agree that it's a monumental task to get a chiptune to sound as good in production as, say, a Deadmau5 track or something. I think it's still possible, but damn difficult.

See, you missed my entire point here. It shouldn't HAVE to be up to that standard. Just like you don't hold xylophone or classical guitar music to that standard. You're allowed to make music with electronic instruments that doesn't sound like deadmau5. Chiptune can hold it's OWN standard, because it is a completely acceptable type of legitimate music. We shouldn't be holding it to the standards of other instruments, just like we don't hold a piano to the same standard as a rock band. With chiptunes, all of the mixing is actually going on within the tracker.

People need to start realizing that chiptunes are it's own INSTRUMENT, not a filter, or a synth patch. Just like pixel art.

[Sam Ascher-Weiss]

I still stand by my first post.

In 70 or so years, chiptunes of all kinds, including many NES soundtracks from the 80s, will be held as a form of almost folk music.

There is something beautiful and elegant about the sound of a chiptune with limited use of 'tricks' etc.. these tricks are wonderful and a fun and important aspect of chiptune composition, but they shouldn't be considered a necessity in the sense that only the most technical of chiptunes, are considered worthy.

I realize for the time being this is probably too much of a concession to demand, so I don't expect it, but I understand what danimal means about 2nd class citizen. There are some relatively juvenile piano remixes that have been posted, from a technical and compositional [pianistically speaking] perspective. But for a chiptune song to pass, it has to be in the top top top 99.999999% percent of the genre.

Anyway, I know that this will not change, and I don't expect it to anytime soon. BUT I stand by the fact that it should, and will...when the times change and chiptunes are regarded with the respect they deserve on a universal level.

[danimal cannon]

I realize for the time being this is probably too much of a concession to demand, so I don't expect it, but I understand what danimal means about 2nd class citizen. There are some relatively juvenile piano remixes that have been posted, from a technical and compositional [pianistically speaking] perspective. But for a chiptune song to pass, it has to be in the top top top 99.999999% percent of the genre.

this is the TLDR of my posts.

[DrumUltimA]

There are some relatively juvenile piano remixes that have been posted, from a technical and compositional [pianistically speaking] perspective. But for a chiptune song to pass, it has to be in the top top top 99.999999% percent of the genre.

This is how I feel about OCR as well, even though perhaps we don't see eye to eye about the submission policy.

[Gario]

See, you missed my entire point here. It shouldn't HAVE to be up to that standard. Just like you don't hold xylophone or classical guitar music to that standard.

Er, actually other instruments are held to the same standard. That's kind of the point being made - you're quite literally asking the site to lower it's expectations when it comes to chiptunes, which even I can't agree with since this isn't a site solely dedicated to chiptunes (even though I love chiptunes and would actually like to see some pure chips appear on the site). It's hard for chiptunes to meet this standard on their own, but that's the standard in place - that much I have to respect.

Yes, it takes less compositional talent to make other instruments to sound that good, but who outside of chiptune affectionatos are going to care about that? It takes a hell of a lot of work to make chiptunes into something that most people would enjoy outside of the fact that they're chiptunes; that's the nature of the beast.

I realize for the time being this is probably too much of a concession to demand, so I don't expect it, but I understand what danimal means about 2nd class citizen. There are some relatively juvenile piano remixes that have been posted, from a technical and compositional [pianistically speaking] perspective. But for a chiptune song to pass, it has to be in the top top top 99.999999% percent of the genre.

The reason you need to be at the 99.9% range of talent when it comes to chiptunes is because it is physically more difficult for chiptunes to achieve this standard. Piano, for example, is comparatively a breeze to achieve a decent sound with - you hammer the notes, use some pedal, touch it up in a DAW (and even fix some missed notes, if you input it with a sequencer) and presto, you have a decent sounding mix. It's not easy to make something sound decent, sure, but it's technically one hell of a lot easier to do so with that instrument than with chiptunes.

What is merely decent in terms of other instruments is incredibly difficult to achieve for chiptunes in terms or production quality, so naturally only the absolute best would have a chance at passing the production bar. It isn't a class war, here - it's simply a matter of physical handicaps that occur with the use of chiptunes.

Which you at the very least, Shnab, already soar past, so I honestly would just want to see if something you submit today would pass if you tried to get it posted. The thing that was a borderline rejection was from six years ago, and even you admit that you're far better than that today, so frankly why not try to set a new precedent? That's the one thing I'm hoping comes from this thread; prove the judges wrong and hit them with a mix that they just have to pass due to it's awesomeness...

[Brandon Strader]

This thread is starting to get uncomfortable for me, cause I do have a solo piano mix passed that doesn't even remotely stand up to the quality of Shnabubula or Danimal's stuff, chiptune or no Don't get me wrong I love mah solo piano song but if it deserves to be on the site, Espergirl does so much more.. but I guess if they're not really willing to change the rule then it'll just be an unfair system for now, hopefully not forever.

[SonicThHedgog]

This thread is starting to get uncomfortable for me, cause I do have a solo piano mix passed that doesn't even remotely stand up to the quality of Shnabubula or Danimal's stuff, chiptune or no Don't get me wrong I love mah solo piano song but if it deserves to be on the site, Espergirl does so much more.. but I guess if they're not really willing to change the rule then it'll just be an unfair system for now, hopefully not forever.

may I please have a link to this espergirl?

[danimal cannon]

The reason you need to be at the 99.9% range of talent when it comes to chiptunes is because it is physically more difficult for chiptunes to achieve this standard. Piano, for example, is comparatively a breeze to achieve a decent sound with - you hammer the notes, use some pedal, touch it up in a DAW (and even fix some missed notes, if you input it with a sequencer) and presto, you have a decent sounding mix. It's not easy to make something sound decent, sure, but it's technically one hell of a lot easier to do so with that instrument than with chiptunes.

While your attitude attempts to be consoling and positive, this paragraph shows that you really just don't get it.

It's funny, this community is all about recognizing that videogame music is not background music and is just as legit as pop music or classical music. What an awful step backward.