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Final Kingdom

An Observation about OCR

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Not too long ago, I was looking around in the Judges' Decision forum and saw a page full of NOs. And then I saw the amount of ReMixes that have gotten YESes but have yet to be posted. There's a lot of them dating back to 2011. You all probably know this already, but I haven't been around on the forums for too long, so that's kind of surprising to me. Though to that end, I understand that the judges are busy irl so the queue can pile up after a while.

Now I feel more intimidated to submit a remix of my own - not because I'll be met with a NO, but rather because I could be met with a YES but not get posted for what will seem like an eternity (and even that is subject to change until it's actually posted). Am I the only person who feels this way? I only recently mustered up the courage to start composing my own songs and trying my hand at ReMixing, so I'm pretty much a newbie at all of this.

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um, yeah... welcome to OCR! seriously, all of those things are unfortunately inherent to the system here. when you're dealing with thousands and thousands of submissions all the damn time, things get clogged up.

believe me, every single posted remixer has felt the agonizing wait of the judge's panel. look at it this way: once you DO get posted, it will make it all the sweeter for the wait :D

again, welcome to OCR and good on you for joining the community.

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um, yeah... welcome to OCR! seriously, all of those things are unfortunately inherent to the system here. when you're dealing with thousands and thousands of submissions all the damn time, things get clogged up.

believe me, every single posted remixer has felt the agonizing wait of the judge's panel. look at it this way: once you DO get posted, it will make it all the sweeter for the wait :D

again, welcome to OCR and good on you for joining the community.

This pretty much... Although I really only seriously submitted like 2 or 3 mixes...

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We've hit a bad patch lately. This kickstarter drama has drained us, tons of album releases have drained us... I feel like sometimes we bite off more than we can comfortably chew. So you're sort of "kicking us while we're down" with your observation... but you're also not wrong.

How about, instead of observations, some recommendations? For a number of reasons including moderation for potential copyright infringement, I do feel like we need a manual review process, and I also feel like our official tagging & QC on file metadata has value, and both are things that carry with them a certain degree of overhead. Any ideas on streamlining, process improvement, etc. are appreciated, and we also appreciate your patience as we work to get past this current set of issues and return to more normal operations.

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I totally understand this is a volunteer effort and you guys take on a bunch of amazing projects at once. I'd never complain about the rate at which you post stuff.

But looking at the to-be-posted list (which is a nice level of transparency) I do feel bad for this guy or gal...

"(2009/12/05) Lemmings 3D 'The Fog of War'"

But I also wouldn't suggest posting the mixes in the order they're accepted/within a certain time limit/etc. because that could kill a lot of the diversity and freshness. I think the system you have in place works well, and you couldn't ask for a better problem than having too much stuff to judge and post.

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But looking at the to-be-posted list (which is a nice level of transparency) I do feel bad for this guy or gal...

"(2009/12/05) Lemmings 3D 'The Fog of War'"

That one's held for a reason, but point taken, since that could apply to some other things.

We've hit a bad patch lately. This kickstarter drama has drained us, tons of album releases have drained us... I feel like sometimes we bite off more than we can comfortably chew. So you're sort of "kicking us while we're down" with your observation... but you're also not wrong.

How about, instead of observations, some recommendations? For a number of reasons including moderation for potential copyright infringement, I do feel like we need a manual review process, and I also feel like our official tagging & QC on file metadata has value, and both are things that carry with them a certain degree of overhead. Any ideas on streamlining, process improvement, etc. are appreciated, and we also appreciate your patience as we work to get past this current set of issues and return to more normal operations.

It's mainly the mixposts not being frequent enough that's led to that particular backlog, not the panel.

Like djp said, when all this current stuff subsides, I think the posting frequency will have a chance to increase and we can get things back to normal.

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"(2009/12/05) Lemmings 3D 'The Fog of War'"

I think that's a special case. I'm not sure exactly what it is, but I was told by Liontamer that there was a particular reason why that one hasn't been posted yet.

EDIT: Aaaand he beat me to it anyway. :lol:

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Perhaps some custom software could help? I don't know what the main issues are, but if there are some repetitive tasks that could be easily handled by code, maybe it could help speed up the process. I think there are a few programmers among us (myself included) so I'm sure there would be a way to figure out something. Just an idea.

I feel very grateful to OCR, so I'd be glad if I could use my coding skills to "pay back" what I can to the community. :)

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because I could be met with a YES but not get posted for what will seem like an eternity [...] Am I the only person who feels this way?
No, I'm sure others feel this way too. Atm, the main reason why getting posted after passing the panel is taking a long time, is because every single mixpost (including the personalized write-up that comes attached) is being handled by djpretzel himself. Obviously, he has a life and can't possibly dedicate his days to posting remixes. ;)

But while this is part of how the site has been operating for years, and a form of final approval over the content that hits the front page, I'm sure a lot of people have also been wondering why this archaic tradition has to remain in place, especially in light of the staggering amount of entries now to be posted. I believe this custom is starting to show its limitations in face of the growing popularity of OCR.

Why are new judges and moderators being hired regularly to help tackle this formidable workload, yet posting remixes remain solely in the hands of djp?

Surely high-ranking or veteran staffers like LT, Darke or OA could help Mr Lloyd with the onslaught of TBP remixes. My 2 cents. :)

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An idea for a suggestion:

An Automated Submission Process. Someone fills out a form with their appropriate info:

Handle, Name, Link to Remix, Source Tunes, Description etc...

ALSO

There could be a check box that if the song is rejected it would automatically be funneled into the WIP Forum. Where people could then add further comments.

_______________

When completed this would send the track automatically to the judges panel. Where once there someone could Direct Post the song if it was good enough. Plus it would preserve the decision on the direct post where someone could read the remixers description of their direct post.

This would save someone from having to go through the inbox and copy and paste everything.

________________

I am a Web Application Developer for my day job. I'd be willing to help out in some way. This is a pretty simple CRUD app that would not be that hard.

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Sorry for the reposting. I believe this is a good idea. And didn't want it to get stuck at the end of page 1:

An idea for a suggestion:

An Automated Submission Process. Someone fills out a form with their appropriate info:

Handle, Name, Link to Remix, Source Tunes, Description etc...

ALSO

There could be a check box that if the song is rejected it would automatically be funneled into the WIP Forum. Where people could then add further comments.

_______________

When completed this would send the track automatically to the judges panel. Where once there someone could Direct Post the song if it was good enough. Plus it would preserve the decision on the direct post where someone could read the remixers description of their direct post.

This would save someone from having to go through the inbox and copy and paste everything.

________________

I am a Web Application Developer for my day job. I'd be willing to help out in some way. This is a pretty simple CRUD app that would not be that hard.

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An idea for a suggestion:

An Automated Submission Process. Someone fills out a form with their appropriate info:

Handle, Name, Link to Remix, Source Tunes, Description etc...

ALSO

There could be a check box that if the song is rejected it would automatically be funneled into the WIP Forum. Where people could then add further comments.

_______________

When completed this would send the track automatically to the judges panel. Where once there someone could Direct Post the song if it was good enough. Plus it would preserve the decision on the direct post where someone could read the remixers description of their direct post.

This would save someone from having to go through the inbox and copy and paste everything.

________________

I am a Web Application Developer for my day job. I'd be willing to help out in some way. This is a pretty simple CRUD app that would not be that hard.

I've never understood why OCR didn't bother to put this in.

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No, I'm sure others feel this way too. Atm, the main reason why getting posted after passing the panel is taking a long time, is because every single mixpost (including the personalized write-up that comes attached) is being handled by djpretzel himself. Obviously, he has a life and can't possibly dedicate his days to posting remixes. ;)

That actually slipped my mind.

Why are new judges and moderators being hired regularly to help tackle this formidable workload, yet posting remixes remain solely in the hands of djp?

Surely high-ranking or veteran staffers like LT, Darke or OA could help Mr Lloyd with the onslaught of TBP remixes. My 2 cents. :smile:

I agree with this. What could possibly go wrong with veteran staff posting ReMixes that are overdue?

And I also think while albums are well and good, focusing more on individual ReMixes could help the process as well.

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I don't think the submission process is causing any delays...

Like Mokram mentioned, one of the obvious bottle-necks is the posting. Since djp doesn't have all the time of the world, it's obvious he can't handle to post mixes on a daily basis consistently. I agree with Mokram in that having more people (not many more) posting the mixes on the front page could help. Maybe try to organize it so that a mix gets posted every 2 days.

Now, about judging, I've noticed one thing that may slow the process. I opened the first 10 rejected mixes on the judges subforum and ALL of them had at least one vote that said "No (resub)", with most of the mixes receiving only "resubs".

Encouraging people to resub is a nice thing, but when you do this, the judging queue doesn't get any shorter than before judging the song (assuming most people actually resub). I haven't read the votes in detail, but maybe some of these "resub" posts are being too picky and could instead be changed to a Yes, which would slow the posting queue, but speed up the judging one. Otherwise, they could just be changed to a straight No. After all, no one says that a No means you can't resubmit.

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p, I do want to pitch in and say that the periods between post should never be too fast, though.

Mixes should be allowed to have just as much splotlight time on the front page as other mixes do.. I'm pretty sure the admins already consider this but just putting that out there for everyone else.

Edit: I feel like I completely contradicted this post with a later one, so edited kind of

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No, I'm sure others feel this way too. Atm, the main reason why getting posted after passing the panel is taking a long time, is because every single mixpost (including the personalized write-up that comes attached) is being handled by djpretzel himself. Obviously, he has a life and can't possibly dedicate his days to posting remixes. ;)

But while this is part of how the site has been operating for years, and a form of final approval over the content that hits the front page, I'm sure a lot of people have also been wondering why this archaic tradition has to remain in place, especially in light of the staggering amount of entries now to be posted. I believe this custom is starting to show its limitations in face of the growing popularity of OCR.

Why are new judges and moderators being hired regularly to help tackle this formidable workload, yet posting remixes remain solely in the hands of djp?

Surely high-ranking or veteran staffers like LT, Darke or OA could help Mr Lloyd with the onslaught of TBP remixes. My 2 cents. :)

From what I understand, each mixpost is like a miniblog for Dave - personally, if I put in the amount of effort he has into the site, it'd be a privilege I'd be loathe to give up quickly. It's also not so simple as letting someone else take over such duties, because someone writing such posts would have to provide an expose that keeps readers interested (although I know some just skip straight to downloading, some also do read each mixpost blurb, including myself) & contains some content about the mixposts musically. Dave's status as the founder of the site provides him with unique liberties in this respect.

Just my two cents anyhow.

Edit:

I do agree that maybe another person posting mixes would help, I do want to pitch in and say that the periods between post should never be too fast, though.

Mixes should be allowed to have just as much splotlight time on the front page as other mixes do.. I'm pretty sure the admins already consider this but just putting that out there for everyone else.

Also an excellent point - it's a fine balancing act.

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If the actual "posting" part is the bottleneck, then the most reasonable solution is to delegate that task to other capable people so the workload is split. Period. Get people who know how to write about music. djp can always author a few of his own write-ups and edit other people's write-ups if he wants. As much as a site owner would want to keep this privilege exclusive to himself or herself, and as much as he or she may deserve to maintain that privilege, there comes a point when the website and community's expansion requires delegation. Otherwise, you shortchange other areas where the website and community can grow. That's the hard truth.

But delegation should also be seen as a positive thing. Along with the bonus potential for growth, sharing leadership allows other members of the community to share responsibilities and feel that they are contributing in a meaningful way. That's what keeps people involved and active.

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Well, right now the posting is a bit more of a problem than judging ("in judging process" list is around 2 times shorter than "to be posted" list, but let's not forget it includes only submissions before may).

The posting tempo was fine during the previous and most of this year, so I really believe the ff6 kickstarter had an influence on the recent lack of mixposts, but look at the fact that there are around 200 mixes posted each year - that's more than enough.

I don't think that another person should be in charge of posting - maybe once in a while someone other than djp could write a review (I remember reading about "guest judges" who judged individual mixes on couple of occasions, something similar could be done with reviewing), but in essence, I consider posting and reviewing mixes as djp's well-earned privilege.

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I wouldn't trust Larry to do a write-up; it would just turn into a 10-page essay about how amazing the McRib is.

I wouldn't do writeups anyway, and I don't think those would get delegated, but you ARE right that all I'd say if I wrote them is http://ocremix.org/forums/showthread.php?p=817967&postcount=215 for every mix no matter what the circumstances.

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25012115.jpg

And newer stuff does get posted sometimes even though there are songs from 2010 waiting. :-o

And 2 mixes shouldn't be posted at the same time, one always gets hidden by the other. Should be 1 mix per day.

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Alternatively, if djp writing up posts is an impenetrable barrier, lighten djp's other responsibilities by delegating other aspects of running the website so he has more time to write. This solution would help, but I'm not sure it can compensate for the amount of creative energy it takes to write. One person can only do so much.

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Am I wrong in assuming that part of the "rationing" of the mixes is a combination of lack of time to do write-up's plus the fact that it gives each mix its time in the limelight and increases the perception that OCR is a place that is about high quality mixes not about a high quantity of mixes (i.e. YouTube)?

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Alternatively, if djp writing up posts is an impenetrable barrier, lighten djp's other responsibilities by delegating other aspects of running the website so he has more time to write. This solution would help, but I'm not sure it can compensate for the amount of creative energy it takes to write. One person can only do so much.

That isn't a bad idea, actually.

Am I wrong in assuming that part of the "rationing" of the mixes is a combination of lack of time to do write-up's plus the fact that it gives each mix its time in the limelight and increases the perception that OCR is a place that is about high quality mixes not about a high quantity of mixes (i.e. YouTube)?

There is some of that involved on this site (that's particularly why albums have a minimum release space of 6-8 weeks), but remember that there are fifteen mixes that are hosted on the front page. The day that rationing mixes is a requirement because they're getting knocked off too quickly (I would be guessing that each mix should be on the front page for a week, at least) would be one hell of a day for OCR. It would be a concern if things were going too fast, but I don't think that's an issue, at the moment.

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I've been thinking about how to solve some of these problems for quite some time, but I have no ideas right now, which is unfortunate.

Getting posted is awesome, but the focus, in my opinion, really should be about the knowledge and experience you have gained from this journey to getting a mix posted, not the getting posted in itself, to me that's an ego thing and I'm sure a lot of us has dealt with that I know I have. Patience is a virtue, it'll get posted.

In the meantime, you could always provide a link to it for our listening pleasure and you don't have to wait for us to enjoy a piece you've worked on, and then seeing it randomly pop up on the front page would just be sprinkles on the cake =D.

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